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Dreadknux

Sonic 4: Episode 1: The 'Rehash'?

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Now don't kill me for this - this isn't an attempt to slam anyone's opinions of whether Sonic 4 is a 'rehash' or not (that, and I've had the idea for a discussion like this since, like, yesterday).

A lot of people have been talking about their fears of Sonic 4 being a retread, rather than a classic-with-new-elements adventure. That much is valid, given that all we've seen is three seconds of footage - of which the stage presented could easily bear resemblance of a past Zone - and recreated badniks from Sonic 1 to 3.

But what if Sonic 4: Episode 1 was simply a 2D rehash of say, Sonic 3, despite the new storyline? As far as we know, there are only 4 Zones in the first episode, which leads me to wonder - if Sega took the rehash route with S4E1, would that necessarily be a bad thing (assuming future episodes were a bit more creative)? Why do you think Sega might want to go down this road in the first place?

I know, pure speculation topic - something I don't do an awful lot of - but I think it'd be fun to wonder, particularly after reading Brad's interesting TSS article. It's an alternative view on his rehash point that I think might be interesting to discuss. Personally, should Sega spend the first four Zones filled with old badniks and old level gimmicks, I'd say it would be to help re-introduce the player to the classic mechanics of 2D Sonic gaming.

I know a lot of people would just say "I played Sonic 3 yesterday", but remember Sonic 4 isn't just for old-school fans that are still here. It's for old-school gamers who haven't touched a Sonic game - Mega Drive or otherwise - since S&K. The people you might talk to on the street that say "Yeah, I remember Sonic when I was 7! That shit was awesome!", but have since moved on from replaying the classics, or haven't been interested whatsoever in Sonic's outing since 1997. I refer to those dudes as the 'lost fanbase' (even though they might not strictly have been fans in the first place).

I'd say that S4E1 would be the gaming equivalent of a long-lost best friend knocking on your door and saying "Hey, let's go to the pub!", only to reminisce in good times past. If the game ended up being a rehash, I'd very much see it in that light, and personally I'm not sure if it would bother me at all, if future episodes were all like "Right, that was then, let's kick it up a notch!".

I know many wouldn't agree with me that, if S4E1 was a full-on rehash, this would be a good thing - but then that's why I made this topic. So you can say whether you think it's cool or shit or whatever. :3

So, er yeah. I might have just brainfarted with this one, but... discuss? :)

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I would be furious if the whole game was nothing but a rehash, and I think that would be a bad move on SEGA's part. 'cause SEGA specifically made it a point to call this a new adventure, not an HD remake of Sonic 1. If that's what turns out to be, I just might not buy it. I'm dead freaking serious, I refuse to support a full-on rehash when I'm tight enough on money as it is. Besides, I have plenty of copies of Sonic 1, 2 and 3 lying around already, I don't need another one.

If it does however meld old designs, concepts, and mechanics with new ones, I'll have a completely different reaction. Fortunately though, with Sonic Team adding the homing attack to Sonic's classic moveset, I'm confident that they'll do this. I'm all for checkered landscapes, bug-based-badniks, sign-posts, and the like, I just wanna see some fresh ideas injected into the mix to complement these classic elements.

Sling's article summed up my thoughts on the whole rehash thing pretty well, actually, so in that one aspect of this title, I'm in the same boat as him.

Edited by EXshad

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Im speechless. I never ever see gamers speak of "rehashes" in such a positive light, it's refreshing... but then again, im the kind of guy who lives for sequels that play similar to their predecessors, regardless of new ideas and whatnot. I rarely see rehashes as bad things unless the thing being rehashed was awful to begin with.

In any case, last I heard, it was 5 Zones. Did we really find out something different?

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I'd question that any of this is a rehash to begin with. I found it funny that Slinger was saying this game was more of the old, and then went on to praise Sonic Pocket Adventure. That game is Sonic 2 with a shiny new coat. Not trying to take a shot at you Slingerland, if you're reading this. But for anyone of that opinion, don't we like rehashes? And where does a game start being a rehash. We know how many variations of Caterkiller there are in Sonic 1-3&K, we love the little fucker. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves and complain about a good thing. Isn't Motobug great you guys? He's a motorized uni-cycle BUG.

About originality though. Sonic Nexus is actually a great reference. I've played the green zone, and the one that looks like a 16-bit Aqua Lake. Even if the game is made from leftover parts, there's great originality in it. That para-sail thing and the fans, and all that running on ceilings in the first level. That's original. Do we really think Sonic Team is so devoid of new ideas that they can't come up with a new appropriate gimmick? I'm holding out hope that at least someone on the team has the same love we do for those old games. Take Sonic Rush. It's not what we want to see, but there's no doubting that the game had some great level gimmicks. I would not be disappointed to see water spouts that act like springs, or rockets I can ride to a higher part of the zone. But maybe all the reviewer whining and incontented fans have finally rendered Sonic Team impotent to the point where they're scared to introduce anything. I doubt that's the case but I'm being hypothetical. I'd be glad to have suffered through the Werehog and Caliburn if I knew there was a good idea in Sonic Team somewhere. So why can't we let them have their chance? And I agree with Dread. An official sequel to the trilogy, if it ends up being even a rehash, is a good thing. Don't knock a good thing.

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I'd question that any of this is a rehash to begin with. I found it funny that Slinger was saying this game was more of the old, and then went on to praise Sonic Pocket Adventure. That game is Sonic 2 with a shiny new coat. Not trying to take a shot at you Slingerland, if you're reading this. But for anyone of that opinion, don't we like rehashes? And where does a game start being a rehash. We know how many variations of Caterkiller there are in Sonic 1-3&K, we love the little fucker. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves and complain about a good thing. Isn't Motobug great you guys? He's a motorized uni-cycle BUG.

About originality though. Sonic Nexus is actually a great reference. I've played the green zone, and the one that looks like a 16-bit Aqua Lake. Even if the game is made from leftover parts, there's great originality in it. That para-sail thing and the fans, and all that running on ceilings in the first level. That's original. Do we really think Sonic Team is so devoid of new ideas that they can't come up with a new appropriate gimmick?

I'm right here, yo, and I get ya, bronik. I'll explain: Sonic Pocket Adventure was a rehash before rehashes got old on me. It's also not a direct sequel. All of the frustration that I'm experiencing all lies within the name. (Plus, on an unrelated note, there's also the novelty of having the games portable, a reason why people will pick up the DS Sonic compilation.)

Thanks for the compliments on Nexus as well. That's the reaction that I always strive to receive from players. It's also what SEGA should strive for, too. The reason why Nexus exists is because I felt that this was lost on them.

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Is this 'four zones' thing coming from what people found in the website?

Because they're likely only showing the first four zones on the website.

Besides that, I don't give a damn if it's a 'rehash'. As long as I enjoy it, it's fine by me.

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I find it pretty funny how people are so opposed to a rehash of an old school Sonic, a 2D Sonic that everyone wanted nonetheless, when no one ever objected to the NSMB series which rehashed itself.

If its a rehash of Sonic 3 or 2 or whatever then I really wouldn't care since those games are still fun to play and it'd be interesting to play it in a new formula. However considering Sega has already confirmed time and time again that it's not a remake of any Sonic game, that point flies off as moot and any rehash is simply nitpicking the details. We have loops, we have corkscrews. How the hell does that justify it as a re-hash? It's a fucking re-occurring gimmick in the Sonic games. As for the motobug stuff, animated flash shit of the concept art which mind you was not even done by Sega or Sonic Team is a hilarious nitpick considering its pretty obvious itself that a sequel picking up from an old game would have nostalgic drawbacks and foremost elements that are supposed to remind of the classics. I was happy to see the motobug back again. Im surprised people are annoyed at the sight of him.

Edited by Pirate Jet

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Besides that, I don't give a damn if it's a 'rehash'. As long as I enjoy it, it's fine by me.

Now, THAT'S the important part. Honestly, it could be a rehash and still be fun (Like Super Mario All Stars, anyone?), though it could suck major ass on the other side of the coin. Even if it's just a rehash, I'm still excited for it.

But seriously, just because we get pics of a palm tree and a flower doesn't mean it'll be a remake. Just think about it: How many Sonic games have palmtrees and flowers in the first zone?

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I thought they said the first episode was five zones long.

That's what's said in XML tags but a part of me wants to ignore that considering that revealing all zones on the website seems kinda stupid.

Then again they did the same for Unleashed.

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Is this 'four zones' thing coming from what people found in the website?

Because they're likely only showing the first four zones on the website.

Yeah that was where I picked that up from, and you're likely right, but meh. Irrelevant inaccuracy is irrelevant. :3

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If the game does turn out to be a rehash it will probably be judged harshly by cynics and journos alike, but if it is a rehash it'll be longer than two episodes and cover S1-S&K (that Batbot was never in S1, and Motobug was never in S3) and if they could nail it then it'd be well worth the price of admission.

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You know it's weird you mention that Patticus, because I remember an old GamesMaster magazine from 1992 reviewing Sonic 2. They gave it 65% and called it nothing more than a 'rehash'.

I didn't have a point, just wanted to bring that up as your comment reminded me of it for some reason.

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I gotta go with the crowd that says that Sega is just showing things that older gamers recognize (old Badniks, checkered environments) to reel them in. Why is that a bad thing? Is nostalgia now a very bad thing? :P

Besides, it was given the first stage was gonna be a tropical/greenery stage consisting of bright colors and checker/other geometrical patterns. I mean come on, the only tropical/greenery stage in the classics that wasn't filled with checkers was Angel Island, and that doesn't exactly count since Angel Island is.... well, Angel Island. =P

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Is this 'four zones' thing coming from what people found in the website?

Because they're likely only showing the first four zones on the website.

Where does it show the zones on the website?! :blink: I wanna see this!

Also, as for the whole "who cares if it's a rehash if it's fun!" It won't be fun if I did it hundreds of times before since I was 6. But again, I seriously doubt it'll be a total rehash. At the worst, they're recycle the badnik designs, and while I'll be irked at SEGA's incredible laziness, I'll get over it pretty fast. Already, just from some screens from the teaser when Sonic runs through the cork-screw, I know the levels won't be a rehash. And the game mechanics seem fresh enough: keep the momentum-based gameplay, but add modern touches such as the homing attack. Sounds great to me!

Edited by EXshad

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I remember an old GamesMaster magazine from 1992 reviewing Sonic 2. They gave it 65% and called it nothing more than a 'rehash'.

Word to Big Bird. Someone posted links to that around here recently. About a good sequel - isn't that what people come to see, more of the same? In fact if I want to break it down I'd say a good sequel is 75% recycled content and 25% new ideas and evolution. That's why you see backlash against large changes to a series. More of the same isn't always a bad thing. Whatever 25% this game is bringing us will set it apart from the rest. Whether they're good ideas remains to be seen. The new look? That's some of its personal style right there. A spin on the homing attack, modern interpretation of classics, that's what makes it different so far.

Edited by Cupcake Hedgehog

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I like rehashes myself =D

But seriously. People who complain about rehashes annoy me >:

Seriously? I don't know what some people define as a rehash, but in my eyes, a rehash is, literally, a game with the same enemies, same levels, same layout, and identical mechanics as it's successor, but under a different name with minor alterations (see Mega Man 1 through 6). By that definition, no Sonic game is a rehash in my book. And I highly doubt Sonic 4 will be one too. I quote myself:

I'm all for checkered landscapes, bug-based-badniks, sign-posts, and the like, I just wanna see some fresh ideas injected into the mix to complement these classic elements.

Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic CD all did this. There's no reason to think Sonic 4 won't. Like I said, I can deal with old badnik designs being reused throughout the game....I guess.... <_< Good news is I'm pretty sure that will be the only thing reused, and if that's the case, overall, I'll be very happy.

Edited by EXshad

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I don't understand the complaints of classic badniks being reused, I mean, we haven't seen these guys in years, it's not as if SEGA constantly reuses them over and over again, it'd be nice to see them as 3D models. Plus, NSMBWii had not ONE original enemy or boss in it except maybe Baby Bowser, we never fought him in 2D, and some people are saying that is the best 2D Mario game ever.

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I admit, I was one who was fearing this would be a rehash before the footage was shown. After seeing reused badniks, trees, and flowers I was beginning to think this would be some jumbled up combo of Sonic 1 and 2.

However, I feel a lot better after seeing the footage.

Despite the obvious Green Hill homage, the level looks much more unique than I thought. And the art style is gorgeously different, not a remastered HD version of the classics as I was beginning to figure.

But the main thing that has lowered my fears is the confirmation that it is episodic.

This leads to me thinking that while this first part my be heavily focused on reusing already established classic references, and the rest will use more independent ideas. Makes more sense for them to confirm that they can handle the classic elements before coming up with new stuff already. Besides, reused Badniks is hardly as big a deal as I originally made it. Nintendo recycles the same enemies for every Mario game, and that never bothers me...

All in all, I'm pretty satisfied. Good job on dropping this fna's fears, Sega.

Good luck trying to comfort the people who tear this series like a religion though. Heh.

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As I've said before, its just good marketing strategy that if you're going to be selling a game based on the whole "like the Genesis games" thing, the most blatant way to do that beyond the PR that we've seen so far is to draw direct connections with level themes and badniks we remember well.

When we saw the concept art, (most) people didn't cry foul on "rehash", they totally geeked out that these old badniks were showing back up. If using zones with the same themes and badniks we've already seen but different layouts is a rehash, then I would consider that a good thing.

I'd point out Sonic Rush as a good example. It was a by-the-book reuse of all the level themes common to Sonic games. Then with Sonic Rush Adventure, we saw some more creative takes on it.

Another example of this kind of progression is Half Life 2. It went through some of the well known themes of urban, factory, sewer, base, cave, et cetera. In future episodes though we got treated to a much more in depth execution. Episode 1 revolved entirely on the urban aspect of it all and did some really interesting things with it. Episode 2 brought back the cave and the vehicle themes in some very inventive ways.

Also, what about Sonic 3 and knuckles? Look at how generic the themes in Sonic 3 are compared to Sonic and Knuckles.

Now if it was Sonic 3 HD, it'd be a bit more than a rehash. However, personally I think that using familiar themes to reintroduce that retro feel is probably a good thing overall. And the episodic format probably means we will get mostly generic themes the first time around (grass, water, snow, and factory would be my guess), and that they'll delve into the more interesting things later on... just like SR and SRA, HL2 and its episodes, and S3 and S&K.

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I'd point out Sonic Rush as a good example. It was a by-the-book reuse of all the level themes common to Sonic games.
Look at how generic the themes in Sonic 3 are compared to Sonic and Knuckles.

Now I don't get what your trying to say. First you say that having similar themes and badniks is a good thing, then turn around and say Sonic 3's themes are generic.

And Sonic 3 is generic?

http://www.youtube.c...hU2-gI#t=02m03s

Sure, they're not as varied in theme as S&K, but they have unique twists in some parts.

Edited by Black Spy

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