Opinion The Spin: Why Abhor Sonic 4?

[azoo]

I knew after I posted that someone was gonna bring up Knuckles. XD

I wasn't considering Knuckles, since I was just pointing out towards Sonic specifically, not any other character. I truly don't know what Sega was thinking when they designed him. =P

But still, Knuckles isn't hard to choose decisions of design over. Knuckles barely changed in between S3K and SA1 (yes, even proportion-wise), meaning that if you basically just took modern Knuckles and colored his eyes black, you have instant classic Knuckles. Sonic on the other hand is a completely different story.

@Pirate Jet: Sorry, I thought peeps were jumping at me about it all, along with Greg. =P

Edited February 7, 2010 by Azukara

[Dejablue]

Oh hai Knuckles!

In that case oh Hai, Sonic!

Omg the first image changed....somehow. Well anyway Echidnas look like this.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Dejablue

[Greg the Fancat]

Well.... ahem. Okay, fine. I'm being ridiculous. It might have been too much to expect a Megaman 9 out of this. But when they had classic Sonic in everything up to the trailer what with the SEGA forums banner and Hedgehog Day, it was a letdown to see new Sonic in place of classic Sonic.

I wasn't impressed. Yes, I should wait for more footage, but with what's been revealed I don't have much hope. I'll continue keeping up with the updates though and see if things start looking up.

[Carbo]

Well.... ahem. Okay, fine. I'm being ridiculous. It might have been too much to expect a Megaman 9 out of this. But when they had classic Sonic in everything up to the trailer what with the SEGA forums banner and Hedgehog Day, it was a letdown to see new Sonic in place of classic Sonic.

I wasn't impressed. Yes, I should wait for more footage, but with what's been revealed I don't have much hope. I'll continue keeping up with the updates though and see if things start looking up.

There wasn't really much marketing toward the game at all, let alone anything referring to classic Sonic. I thought the logical assumption would be that using the Sonic 1 logo in the teaser implied a very Genesis styled game with just Sonic, not that we'd expect stepping backwards to the old design.

That's just me however.

[EXshad]

Well.... ahem. Okay, fine. I'm being ridiculous. It might have been too much to expect a Megaman 9 out of this. But when they had classic Sonic in everything up to the trailer what with the SEGA forums banner and Hedgehog Day, it was a letdown to see new Sonic in place of classic Sonic.

Dude. With all due respect, what the fuck do you want from this? First, you claim that it's too much of a rehash and doesn't look fun because of it, and now you're pissed that it's not....a TOTAL REHASH?!

Once again, why the hell do you think a fan-base this divisive deserves better than this incarnation of Sonic 4? It looks fairly great so far, IMO. Hell, considering the way we're acting, I think we deserve a game where nothing happens except your little Mii or Xbox Avatar gets kicked in the nuts by both modern and classic Sonic repeatedly for being such nitpicky bastards.

Wouldn't that make you happy? I mean, classic Sonic would be in it!!!!

Edited February 7, 2010 by EXshad

[Pelly <3's U]

There wasn't really much marketing toward the game at all, let alone anything referring to classic Sonic. I thought the logical assumption would be that using the Sonic 1 logo in the teaser implied a very Genesis styled game with just Sonic, not that we'd expect stepping backwards to the old design.

That's just me however.

I'm with you. I was actually pretty surprised to see so many people were expecting classic Sonic, considering he hasn't looked like that in many a year. I understand how people might have set themselves up getting all pumped for old-school Sonic to make his reappearance, but I still don't think it has many bearings on how good the game can be regardless.

[Nepenthe]

Because when we ask for black eyes we get ganked by folks like yourself.

Folks like myself? What the hell's that supposed to mean? You act as if I held the art department hostage over this non-issue. Besides, you didn't just get 'ganked' on the eyes, but the whole design, which was actually the goddamned point I was trying to make.

If someone's going to go through the trouble of drawing up a hypothetical model sheet for Sonic 4 that's ultimately Classic Sonic at the end of the day, why give him green eyes instead of black? I would've said the same thing about a black-eyed modern Sonic. I already believe eye-color is an infinitesimal triviality, so fooling with his pupils is such a cheap-ass bone to throw to the respective fans. If you want to make a classic-modern hybrid, then make a classic-modern hybrid. Don't just recolor the pupils and pat yourself on the back like you actually did any work.

'Sides, the models look awkward with the opposite eye color anyways.

What Dejablue said. And not just that, but because that's probably the main reason I see people prefer modern Sonic over the classic style (other than the chubby thing, which is just pretty silly to complain about. He's a flippin' hedgehog. A hedgehog).

He don't look so skinny and tall to me. =P Some may use the excuse that "neither are they blue and have a quasi-unieye", but that isn't the point. Classic Sonic still looks like a hedgehog (he's a little chubby and round, shorter limbs, cute innocent face, short and pokey spines). Although I like modern Sonic, he looks like something other than a hedgehog; something I can't exactly put my finger on. Sonic nowadays seems to be his own species, which isn't good considering he's Sonic the Hedgehog.

I prefer modern Sonic over classic Sonic because he looks more inclined to be an actual runner, with a more streamlined figure instead of being an orange on toothpicks. And speaking as an artist, he's a bunch of fun contours that flow into one another which give him a better form and weight than his pre-Adventure counterpart. That, and he's not a Mickey Mouse redux anymore. I understand this intentionally adds to the cuteness factor, but the fact that modern Sonic has no real (obvious?) design comparisons elsewhere gives him that much more appeal; Sonic's much more unique and capable of standing out on his own, and he looks cool while doing it. Look at classic Sonic long enough and your brain will start overlaying images of Felix.

And if you ask me, neither of them look particularly more like a hedgehog than the other, especially since the newest incarnation has all but abandoned the extremities of the modern design. Seriously, I knew what hedgehogs were by the time we got Sonic 1 and you couldn't have paid me to convincingly tell you that he was one. Sonic's always had that level of ambiguity in his physical traits, like you saw from black and white cartoon designs.

Let's say we do give him the black eyes. What fucking difference would it make on a minimal model in-game? Are you going to stand one centimetre from the screen and say FUCK YEAH HE HAS BLACK EYES when any essential difference of that will only be noticed on the render?

Seriously, that is all that needs to be said. The most that Sonic's eye color will be vehemently visible is within promotional artwork which has no bearing on the game's aesthetics. Add onto the fact that we will probably be nerdgasming too much over "penbawl fiziks" to even bring ourselves to notice while playing, and you've practically cut down the debate. <3

Edited February 7, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Dejablue]

Folks like myself? What the hell's that supposed to mean? You act as if I held the art department hostage over this non-issue. Besides, you didn't just get 'ganked' on the eyes, but the whole design, which was actually the goddamned point I was trying to make.

If someone's going to go through the trouble of drawing up a hypothetical model sheet for Sonic 4 that's ultimately Classic Sonic at the end of the day, why give him green eyes instead of black? I would've said the same thing about a black-eyed modern Sonic. I already believe eye-color is an infinitesimal triviality, so fooling with his pupils is such a cheap-ass bone to throw to the respective fans. If you want to make a classic-modern hybrid, then make a classic-modern hybrid. Don't just recolor the pupils and pat yourself on the back like you actually did any work.

There have been several redesign ideas all over this forum but not matter which one is presented we're still looked upon as the bad guys for trying. It's really just your opinion on what is considered a good compromise or a bad one. I thought those sketches were a good compromise honestly.

[Chooch]

Sonic 4 sucks because it doesn't have 1970's trouser mode.

There. I said it.

[Pelly <3's U]

It obviously sucks because Sonic is still naked D:!!! It's 2010, lets have some decency for the children's sake!

Moral degenerates >:U

[Dejablue]

Soccer moms around the world revolt.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Dejablue

[BlazingTales]

Sonic once looked like a hedgehog? ... I don't see it. His classic design looks more like a 20's cartoon character... you know, an animal that looks nothing like it's supposed to but still has charm... like Mickey or Felix!

[Nepenthe]

There have been several redesign ideas all over this forum but not matter which one is presented we're still looked upon as the bad guys for trying. It's really just your opinion on what is considered a good compromise or a bad one. I thought those sketches were a good compromise honestly.

You're not looked on as bad guys for merely presenting ideas or stating preferences. I hope I'm not being biased, but I haven't bore witness to such a thing on such a massive scale to warrant the fact that you feel victimized. My personal problem with anyone putting forth options, ideas, or just their thoughts is that a few individuals gave this subject a ridiculously exponential level of importance while being sourpusses in the process-- "Sega lied and falsely advertised!" "I would be more inclined to buy this game just for his black eyes." "Sega's erasing classic Sonic's history; The new model doesn't belong." That's quite different from merely saying, "I think the Classic design would be more appropriate for this game," a sentiment I can understand.

I mean, even then you made the implication that this red-alert issue was somehow my fault when I asked a serious question to Azukara about a particular design option, a question that was completely irrelevant to your rebuttal. It's just silliness, that's what it is. It's also ironic too, considering what happened with the whole playable character roster debacle awhile back-- "Stop crying that those lame new characters aren't in, you babies! I got Sonic only; That's all that matters!" Yeah, you got Sonic only alright.

EDIT: Also, I don't think 99.5% classic and 0.05% modern is a good compromise, even vice versa. Compromise implies some significant level of sacrifice; Eye-color is not significant. Taking proportions and detail into consideration would go a much better way into designing something that is a much better compromise than merely hitting up the Paint Bucket tool for a tiny area in the whole figure and calling it a day.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Dejablue]

You're not looked on as bad guys for merely presenting ideas or stating preferences. I hope I'm not being biased, but I haven't bore witness to such a thing on such a massive scale to warrant the fact that you feel victimized. My personal problem with anyone putting forth options, ideas, or just their thoughts is that a few individuals gave this subject a ridiculously exponential level of importance while being sourpusses in the process-- "Sega lied and falsely advertised!" "I would be more inclined to buy this game just for his black eyes." "Sega's erasing classic Sonic's history; The new model doesn't belong." That's quite different from merely saying, "I think the Classic design would be more appropriate for this game," a sentiment I can understand.

I mean, even then you made the implication that this red-alert issue was somehow my fault when I asked a serious question to Azukara about a particular design option, a question that was completely irrelevant to your rebuttal. It's just silliness, that's what it is. It's also ironic too, considering what happened with the whole playable character roster debacle awhile back-- "Stop crying that those lame new characters aren't in, you babies! I got Sonic only; That's all that matters!" Yeah, you got Sonic only alright.

Actually that whole rejecting of other Sonic characters didn't bother me. The fact that the franchise has a legion of characters doesn't bother me much either. To honest I didn't much care to participate in that contest it was obvious what they were trying to do.

And I never said that anything was specifically your fault. I said "people like you" Forgive me if I'm wrong but I've also been brushed into the same pile of people who think the lack of Classic Sonic will "ruin the game and that history has been erased". That's just silliness but this is roughly the fifth time I've had to explain myself and it seems most of you guys are getting too much of a rise of calling fowl on me to read what I say.

I'm basically on the same level as Azukara when it comes to this. Heck Azukara agreed with me but somehow I'm the only wrong one. I must have a "kick-me" sign on my back

Edited February 7, 2010 by Dejablue

[Nepenthe]

Actually that whole rejecting of other Sonic characters didn't bother me. The fact that the franchise has a legion of characters doesn't bother me much either. To honest I didn't much care to participate in that contest it was obvious what they were trying to do.

And I never said that anything was specifically your fault. I said "people like you" Forgive me if I'm wrong but I've also been brushed into the same pile of people who think the lack of Classic Sonic will "ruin the game and that history has been erased". That's just silliness but this is roughly the fifth time I've had to explain myself and it seems most of you guys are getting too much of a rise of calling fowl on me to read what I say.

I'm basically on the same level as Azukara when it comes to this. Heck Azukara agreed with me but somehow I'm the only wrong one. I must have a "kick-me" sign on my back

Apologies; I was talking more about the classic-leaning members here as a whole, not just you. In fact, I rightly remember that you didn't seem present that much during the whole argument.... or that whole thread to be honest. xD

And you literally said, and I quote--

"Because when we ask for black eyes we get ganked by folks like yourself."

-- basically telling me that the reason Sega's using Sonic's current model is because I did something 'wrong' beyond merely prefer the new model, as if Sega actually knows this about me and used it as serious consideration for the art design of this game. You directly targetted me over a question that was irrelevant to your snide little implication. That's why I'm a bit pissed off at you right now. On the other hand, Azukara was polite enough to respond to me with reasonable thoughts and no real hostility, which is all I request from anyone here. That is regardless of the fact that you guys agree on how Sonic should've look.

In short, instead of practically saying, "You and other modern fans have ruined this game," I would've preferred that you answered my question the first time. =/

[Dejablue]

If thats the case I should be pissed as well. All I've gotten is snide hurtful remarks. Enough to feed a small army but I'm not pissed off at anybody. I try to be a reasonable human being with my comments. That certainly doesn't stop anybody from gutting me. And still I don't get pissed.

"You and other modern fans have ruined this game,"

I love how I didn't even say that. Nor did I ever imply it.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Dejablue

[Sean]

Silence! I command you all to shut the EFF!! up. Everybody's being a drama mama so tone it down will ya.

[JEV3]

From now on I'm just going to laugh instead of argue, because this is just getting silly.

Want some of my peanuts, I have some to spare. It's funny because you can try to crack the nuts so that the noise they make corresponds perfectly with the cracks in your back from laughing so hard.

---

In all seriousness, I've had more than my fair share of drama, so it is needless to say that when I encounter it, I'm not going to be happy about it. I don't know how many times I or like-minded Sonic fans have said "its just a bloody sonic game, get over it". Criticism has a definite place in this industry, but you cross the line when you start insulting someone who doesn't share your critical opinion or gameplay taste (eww casuals), start complaining about superficial aesthetics (DOES he have shoe buckles, does anyone know?), making up nonsense that was never necessarily canon to begin with (his name was Eggman in Sonic 1 btw), and ranting over three seconds of gameplay footage. (which doesn't only describe Sonic fans, anyway)

With all that said, I'm so tired of conflict dividing a fanbase, when at the end of the day everybody has a passion for Sonic. The time I stopped being a huge critic was when I realized that I actually came to enjoy some of the most horrid games out there. So here, I'm spending most of my time on the sidelines. I'm observing the general reaction of the Sonic populace and rather than getting worked up, I'd just laugh it off.

This isn't about racism, about politics, about religion, or about nazis (Godwin's Law Alert!), this is a video game... We can have some seemingly heated light-hearted debates, and at the end of the day we can all laugh at the drama we stirred up.

[Phos]

I prefer modern Sonic over classic Sonic because he looks more inclined to be an actual runner, with a more streamlined figure instead of being an orange on toothpicks. And speaking as an artist, he's a bunch of fun contours that flow into one another which give him a better form and weight than his pre-Adventure counterpart. That, and he's not a Mickey Mouse redux anymore. I understand this intentionally adds to the cuteness factor, but the fact that modern Sonic has no real (obvious?) design comparisons elsewhere gives him that much more appeal; Sonic's much more unique and capable of standing out on his own, and he looks cool while doing it. Look at classic Sonic long enough and your brain will start overlaying images of Felix.

And if you ask me, neither of them look particularly more like a hedgehog than the other, especially since the newest incarnation has all but abandoned the extremities of the modern design. Seriously, I knew what hedgehogs were by the time we got Sonic 1 and you couldn't have paid me to convincingly tell you that he was one. Sonic's always had that level of ambiguity in his physical traits, like you saw from black and white cartoon designs.

The new design look more like a runner, but the old design looks much more like a gymnast. =P

I don't actually mind the redistribution so much as I just think they went too far with it. How much is that too far? Take a look at this wireframe. One thing I'd like to mention is that most of those traingle have a companion triangle that makes them a square. On his body, there's a row of polygons near the middle that are much taller than the others with another row below them that are almost as tall. I'd like everything above it to be lowered until they're about the same height as the other rows, and for the same to be done that second, less wide row. This is basically just to make his body slightly shorter, it looks too tall like it is (You can probably tell that I'm very detail oriented). Obviously, this would require the legs and arms to be slightly shortened to bring them back into proportion. I also don't mind the extra contours because trying to not have them at all usually results in a fuglyness of over 9,000 MegaBryces*. I'd also like them to round out his body a bit more.

But then there are the things I don't like about the new design. I don't like the way they shaped his eyes. Fun little detail: The classic american design shaped them the same way. The Oshima design had a defined brow, but they once again went overboard here. I think the changes to pretty much his entire face got rid of most of the cuteness he had going on, but the much lauded extra coolness of the new design really seems to come from everywhere else. That, and they also made his quills no big and massive. I can understand them want to look fast, but they made them almost comically huge. I also can't help but think of how the Porsche 917 didn't become a dominate force at Le Mans until they decided to saw the tail off of it.

Seriously, that is all that needs to be said. The most that Sonic's eye color will be vehemently visible is within promotional artwork which has no bearing on the game's aesthetics. Add onto the fact that we will probably be nerdgasming too much over "penbawl fiziks" to even bring ourselves to notice while playing, and you've practically cut down the debate. <3

The life icon, everyone forgets the life icon.

[SuperStingray]

The life icon, everyone forgets the life icon.

Eh, it probably won't be that noticeable unless you have an HDTV. Hell, I can barely see the green in my avatar, and I'm pretty sensitive to color.

Edited February 8, 2010 by SuperStingray

[DaBatGuy]

The life icon, everyone forgets the life icon.

If you play the game starring exclusively at New Sonic's green-eyed shit-eating grin instead of, you know, paying attention to the level you're gonna die constantly. Unless it actually does control and play like Rush game of hold right and jump sometimes, which would be a much more serious issue than a HUD design.

[Diogenes]

The life icon, everyone forgets the life icon.

Kind of says something, doesn't it? That most people barely even notice the little face in the corner of the screen?

[Machenstein]

Even though I am a classic Sonic fan, I have been avoiding this whole "classic Sonic for Sonic 4" campaign because I believe there is an alternative that may please both classic and modern fans. Just hear me out for a little bit.

This game has until roughly five months until release. Now a lot can change between now and then, so don't be surprised if Sega decides to make slight changes to Sonic's model. I highly doubt that Sega will replace the model they currently have with an entirely different model and I really don't think they have to.

There is nothing inherently wrong with modern Sonic and there is nothing inherently wrong with the green eyes. Looking at the model they currently have, I believe Sega can tweak the model so that it can appeal to both classic and modern fans. They just have to shorten the quills and make the green in Sonic's eyes a little more subtle.

And honestly, there have been times when classic Sonic was just as tall and streamlined as modern Sonic. Remember the Sonic OVA? That was classic Sonic and he was pretty tall there. You could almost say the same thing for the Sonic CD cutscenes. The Sonic model we have for Sonic 4 could basically be that but with green eyes. He would look cute enough to qualify as classic Sonic but athletic enough to qualify as modern Sonic. It's the perfect compromise.

Hopefully when this debate settles down, Sega will be more comfortable listening to our suggestions.

[Solid SOAP]

If you play the game starring exclusively at New Sonic's green-eyed shit-eating grin instead of, you know, paying attention to the level you're gonna die constantly. Unless it actually does control and play like Rush game of hold right and jump sometimes, which would be a much more serious issue than a HUD design.

He doesn't even have a shit-eating grin in the life icon, he's smiling just like classic Sonic.

[Nepenthe]

The new design look more like a runner, but the old design looks much more like a gymnast. =P

I want you to find me a gymnast that looks like a shishkabobbed basketball and is still on a team. xP

I don't actually mind the redistribution so much as I just think they went too far with it. How much is that too far? Take a look at this wireframe. One thing I'd like to mention is that most of those traingle have a companion triangle that makes them a square. On his body, there's a row of polygons near the middle that are much taller than the others with another row below them that are almost as tall. I'd like everything above it to be lowered until they're about the same height as the other rows, and for the same to be done that second, less wide row. This is basically just to make his body slightly shorter, it looks too tall like it is (You can probably tell that I'm very detail oriented). Obviously, this would require the legs and arms to be slightly shortened to bring them back into proportion. I also don't mind the extra contours because trying to not have them at all usually results in a fuglyness of over 9,000 MegaBryces*. I'd also like them to round out his body a bit more.

I think you severly underestimate the interconnectedness of Sonic's proportions as well as just how recognizable he is. It's a deadly combination of factors common to all iconic characters; You can't do a lot of tweaking to the design without effectively screwing the entire package up, and your best choice will always be to redesign.

Case in point is the body which you argue that it would look better shortened. Well, I've found that the stomach's length is basically a dead giveaway to the size of the eyes and subsequently the size of his head (a proportion I believe rings true for Classic Sonic as well. xP) With his head in place, you can now determine the size of his hands, his shoes, where the spines fall in relation to the rest of his body, etc. The proportions are practically as fixed as a fractal snowflake, thus merely shortening his body, arms, and legs when he still has those big feet and head of his isn't going to cut it; He will look really awkward unless you put him back into alignment.

That's why I'm of the mindset that the new design doesn't need any change, especially not any that only serve to try to forcibly shove and crunch him back up into his old classic style; The community Photoshops are proof enough of what happens when you muck about with something that is ultimately fine. New Sonic is perfect the way he is. <3

But then there are the things I don't like about the new design. I don't like the way they shaped his eyes. Fun little detail: The classic american design shaped them the same way. The Oshima design had a defined brow, but they once again went overboard here. I think the changes to pretty much his entire face got rid of most of the cuteness he had going on, but the much lauded extra coolness of the new design really seems to come from everywhere else. That, and they also made his quills no big and massive. I can understand them want to look fast, but they made them almost comically huge. I also can't help but think of how the Porsche 917 didn't become a dominate force at Le Mans until they decided to saw the tail off of it.

Sonic's eyes in the Oshima drawing look nothing like modern Sonic's eyes from any year. They are excessively pointed at the top which gives him a somewhat cockier or even demonized look. As Chris Sanders and perhaps other Disney vets will tell you, the more rounded, streamlined, and flowing something is, the friendlier it will naturally look. As I noted, Sonic's limbs more naturally lead into the body as a result of him being given more form. He doesn't sport a mohawk either, but rather spines that flow naturally from his head. The toes of his shoes point upwards and subsequently curve more into the sole, the cuffs on his shoes and gloves are more filled and puffed, the inside of his ears are rounded, his muzzle is less extreme. For all intents and purposes, modern Sonic is actually much softer and approachable, and thus cuter, than that drawing your provided. xP

The life icon, everyone forgets the life icon.

Ignoring the fact that you're assuming that the life icon won't be monochrome, how often are you going to be looking at it, and how much are a few green pixels going to be a detriment to yours or anyone else's enjoyment? It's practically negligible.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Nepenthe