Can Sonic have a plot?

[Sega DogTagz]

Well, the backstory of Angel Island is really the only point that was expanded on in later games (and even then, it's not just empty space that's filled later, it's the framework that SA builds on). Everything else is contained within the classics, and, with the exception of the Death Egg connecting 2 and 3&K, contained within the game it's introduced. They aren't things that are being reexamined in the light of new evidence; they existed, fully formed, in the games they appeared in, but were subtle enough that you'd miss them if you weren't looking for them.

True, but the emphasis added to these points in later games also served to made them more important.

Angel Islands backstory wouldn't have mattered much if the tale of the ancient echidna's wasn't fully explained in SA1/Battle/Chronicles. The same can be said for the mural. While much of the info was indeed self contained in the original games, it was either negligible or minimal until later stories came to focus our attention and expand the scope of complexity.

[Diogenes]

True, but the emphasis added to these points in later games also served to made them more important.

The island's backstory, yes. The mural, no; nothing in later games has referenced it at all, the connection to Shadow is pure fan conjecture. In canon, it's relevant to S3&K and S3&K only. Everything else, no again.

Nothing in later games has anything to do with them showing in-game that the Death Egg can't make it back into space with normal fuel, validating the Doc's plan to use the island's emerald to get it into space, which it does effortlessly once he's stolen it. Nothing in later games has anything to do with Mecha Sonic not being destroyed in Sonic's Sky Sanctuary, only falling offscreen, and returning at the end of Knuckles' story and being destroyed there (and only in the good or better endings, if memory serves, else he gets back up again with the emerald after the credits). Nothing in later games has anything to do with them changing the background in AIZ, draining the water from Carnival Night, and removing the Death Egg from various zones to show that Knuckles' story takes place after Sonic's. These are all self-contained; they happen in S3&K, for S3&K.

[Sega DogTagz]

The island's backstory, yes. The mural, no; nothing in later games has referenced it at all, the connection to Shadow is pure fan conjecture. In canon, it's relevant to S3&K and S3&K only. Everything else, no again.

Nothing in later games has anything to do with them showing in-game that the Death Egg can't make it back into space with normal fuel, validating the Doc's plan to use the island's emerald to get it into space, which it does effortlessly once he's stolen it. Nothing in later games has anything to do with Mecha Sonic not being destroyed in Sonic's Sky Sanctuary, only falling offscreen, and returning at the end of Knuckles' story and being destroyed there (and only in the good or better endings, if memory serves, else he gets back up again with the emerald after the credits). Nothing in later games has anything to do with them changing the background in AIZ, draining the water from Carnival Night, and removing the Death Egg from various zones to show that Knuckles' story takes place after Sonic's. These are all self-contained; they happen in S3&K, for S3&K.

My bad on the mural thing then... I always heard that it was in the jpn manual or something.

Island aside, the death egg itself is another good example of what I am talking about though. While S3&K does well to paint the picture of what is going on with Eggman's greatest weapon, it is still an expansion on a previous occurrence, gaining both importance and precedence from Sonic 2. (I realize I am making a point against the ungodly sin of carrying a continued storyline across more than 1 game here, but let me finish).

Much like how future games built on S3, the storyline and complexity of Sonic 3 owes in large part to the path left by Sonic 2. The trials and tribulations of launching the death egg are that much more epic because Sonic has had prior history to the devise. By expanding on a concept of the previous game, Sonic Team was able to channel some complexity that otherwise wouldn't be there. Simply knowing the fate of Sonic 2 added another wrinkle to Sonic 3 which expands the grandness of its scale. Think of it as a kind of inflation.

S3&K did do well to tell its story, and I agree that it can be seen as complex even when self-contained. But we cannot deny the influence of games before and after the title in our remembrance of its over-all complexity. Would the Death-Egg have been half as grand or as deep without S2/Battle? Even something as simple as the into (Knux taking down S.Sonic) wouldn't mean didly-squat if you look at S3 as self contained.

[Phos]

This. I really think it gets a lot deeper than that. Two entities fighting each other. One is red, white and blue, promoting individual freedom and natural rights. The other dressed in red and yellow, has an eastern-European name, promotes strength in numbers, industry and to have his followers fighting for a unified cause. They each try to gain control of powerful objects that can control or cause chaos on a global scale depending on how they are used. See what I'm getting at? Why can't more Sonic stories be like this? Simple enough for any child to enjoy even if the meaning is overlooked, yet deep enough for any matured mind to appreciate?

Somewhat relevant.

Though I do get the impression that they kind of tried to do that in some of the newer games, but they have this tendency to beat you over the head with their message. It would also be nice if the game wouldn't need to break for a loading screen prior to them, and could tell a story without resorting to a load of exposition.

[Meta77]

Sonic 06 had a great story. Sega simply rushed the game and overlooked many key plots in the story which left many questions unanswered.

[SuperStingray]

Sonic 06 had a great story. Sega simply rushed the game and overlooked many key plots in the story which left many questions unanswered.

For me, Sonic 06's story was bipolar beyond belief.

Whenever I watch Sonic's story, I end up hating the Sonic 06 to the core. I don't care how rushed the game was, there is really no excuse for that much narm and cliche. I have yet to see a G-rated movie with less depth. And not only was it bad, it completely contradicted everything Sonic stands for. Where he is established as a free-spirited, enigmatic rogue, he was portrayed here as a down-to-earth drone with his heart on his sleeve. If you enjoy this story, more power to you, but I can't find anything in it that's worth my time or interest nor Sonic's.

And yet, when I see Shadow's story, I just feel sorry for 06 rather than outright hate it. There were actually interesting plot points and there was so much intrigue in the relationships between Shadow and Rouge, Omega and Mephiles. Some people probably ignore Shadow's story because... you know, it's Shadow. But this story was, if nothing else, beneficial to his characterization. If there is one thing the developers learned from Shadow the Hedgehog it's that angst is annoying. Shadow may still be serious, but he doesn't bitch about his past nor occupy himself with thinking about lost causes. But there really is some great material that was sadly overlooked, both by the players and the writers themselves. Why was Omega the one to lock up Shadow? How far would Rouge go for Shadow? What is Mephiles' motives? Mephiles in particular interests me because how he seems to be a foil for Shadow; a manifestation of what he'd become had he not left his past behind him.

[Octarine]

I did like many parts of Shadow's story. Team Dark as a unit are a lot of fun to analyze, and '06 -wiped from continuity though it was- has coloured my perceptions of the trio irreversably. The more emotional scenes -well, scene- between the three of them lent their past interactions more weight, and ironically made me appreciate their antics in Heroes somewhat more. Shadow actually staying true to his promise to leave his past behind him was a pleasant surprise as well. There were problems, of course, from Rouge being far too serious (sort of the polar opposite of her constantly-snarky Chronicles persona) to Omega's odd voice and animations , but overall Shadow's third of the game wasn't that bad.

The rest of it, though, was a complete mess. Elise being kidnapped half a dozen times, Knuckles appearing for no reason other than because he's Knuckles, Blaze having her backstory completely changed, the whole time travel aspect, which I'm rarely fond of outside of franchises that revolve solely around it... I can't even begin to consider that "good". There were tidbits of quality in there, but the plot's fundamentals were so rotten that I can't imagine six or eight months' more development time improving it in any more than a superficial way.

As for Sonic games having complex plots in general... the characters are more important than the actual story being told, at least to me, but I'm not against interesting narratives. The biggest obstacle that complex plots have to get around at the moment, I think, is that virtually every example of an "epic" or "dark" Sonic game has been drastically separate from the aesthetic of the classic games. I enjoyed SA2's story a lot, but it suffered from not really feeling like a Sonic game, and I don't think it had to. People would probably be much more receptive to a more complex storyline if it could stay grounded in the more stylized and "cartoony" look and feel of the classic games, Heroes or Unleashed. Making a game look blander isn't going to make us take it more seriously; it's only going to make us bored.