The two different kinds of momentum

[redmenace]

For instance; compare, say, Labyrinth Zone to Hydrocity. Labyrinth Zone is a terrible level; beyond the constant drag of the water, there are too many short spaces to move, and there's always an enemy or a spear waiting to stick you in the face. Hydrocity is a bit better; I generally dislike water zones, but there's enough room to move freely and not have to worry about getting your rings tossed out of you every five seconds.

It's not horrible. It's just different. And it's good to have different levels that play differently, otherwise it's the same thing for every level and game, what changes is the number and location of pits and spikes.

[Nepenthe]

It's not that the boost needs to be restricted to straight lines and scripting, it's that it needs to be confined to topographically simple environments. The properties of the ability make it substantially less useful in more physically complex areas where more complex maneuvering needs to be performed. Think of playing through Sonic 1 with the spin dash, there's about one spot where it will maybe be useful.

I understand what you're saying. But my crazy imagination makes me believe there is a way it could be utilized even in areas laden with obstacles, especially when it comes to this design that I'm trying to get across.

Perhaps through a combination of better indication as to what's coming up (I say clever use of the anime cliche' of personifying a sudden epiphany with an exclamation mark or twitch), lengthening the landscape not only as a visual cue that the boost has been activated and your speed has increased, but to further help the player dodge obstacles, sandbox-reminiscent level design that doesn't punish the player for maneuvering how they want or even falling from high spots, and allowing the boost to be used in combination with aerial/spinning maneuvers to regain ground, recover your position, or simply play with Sonic and see how far you can break normal physics. Does that make sense?

If you make a game that doesn't have much to do with Sonic's classic gameplay, why have Sonic in it at all? There's also the matter of no other games really scratching the same proverbial itch as the older style Sonic games. Also, going at a constant speed for a large amount of time has a tenancy to desensitize you to that speed.

You're under the assumption that the only thing Sonic is suitable for are games that are strictly classic which I don't agree with. I find the physics and speed styles to both be fun and valuable in their own right, and the latter is one that Sonic can take advantage of without being out of his element. They are also just as unique as one another-- Really, where are the fans like me supposed to go to find character-based platformers that emulate Unleashed or Rush with their emphasis on speed and twitchy gameplay?

Also, the desensitization argument is subjective; What one group tires of doesn't effect others. I still have a significant amount of fun with Unleashed regardless of the fact that I've done tens if not hundreds of runs, and I'm sure many others here can attest to that. Furthermore, only half of the reward is the speed-- The other half is in the ability to successfully utilize it as a tool to earn shortcuts, points, lives, or simply the thrill of sustaining the flow regardless of any obstacles in your way that, if hit, would break that flow and subsequently remove the reward factor altogether.

This sounds pretty good, except for the Mirror's Edge comparisons. I found Mirror's Edge to be a rather awkward game to play, but it's very hard to describe why. I guess the best way to explain it is "Jumping into corners". It just seemed that doing simple things required too much precision, and if I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do, I would end up with the camera pressed into a corner or a wall or something, and that was when it didn't splatterdeath me on the pavement below. Oh, and aside from her ability to wall run (for a bit), she doesn't have any ability that Mario does not.

Eh, I wasn't really delving deep into the games I mentioned. xP But I brought up Faith because she basically partakes in virtual parkour, a general concept that I think could be wonderfully applied to Sonic. I brought up Mario because he seems to have a jumping repertoire that I don't think Faith actually replicates-- The triple jump, the ground pound, the somersault, the backflip, etc. Mario's mantra is worthy of emulation too, as I believe Miyamoto did say that the reason for 64s bare level design was because Mario himself was fun to move around with.

That depends. To what extent "spins/evolutions" are you referring to?

At the very least, merely the daytime levels, although I'd hardly call them a true evolution but rather a viable spin. Whatever an evolution of the main gameplay would ever be, I don't think I could make an educated guess about it, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it involved removing itself from classic gameplay in significant ways so long as it was well-built and fun.

And just to confirm your possible suspicions, I'm actually fine with the idea of genre-roulette too, whether it tries to integrate itself into normal gameplay (Heroes, ShtH, Black Knight) or stand separately on its own (SA1, SA2, Unleashed). I only get pissed off if said genre-roulette isn't fun or has debatable problems. I have very loose expectations for this series, obviously; The only real consistent bullet on my checklist for an adequate Sonic game nowadays is "Make colorful animals do awesome shit."

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't understand why people complain about the speed in Sonic games. Sonic games from the start have had speed in their core. Speed is a trademark in Sonic games. Sonic games are supposed to be highspeed platformers. Each and every mainstream Sonic game has platforming of some sort.

But speed was more of a reward before it became something you could get at the push of a button.

Sonic games weren't all about speed than they were exploration, as you could go through the level at your own pace so long as you took less than 10 minutes to do so.

[Eternal_Dreamer]

Speed more of a reward? When you go fast, you go fast. And speed is always a reward.

Most of 2D games were far shorter than most of the other games for how fast you would go; have you ever seen the Green Hill Zone? You could complete that in, uh, in less than 30 seconds EASILY.

3D Sonic Games have focused more on platforming, methinks, as they were way faster.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Speed more of a reward? When you go fast, you go fast. And speed is always a reward.

You certainly don't go fast at the push of a button until Rush and Unleashed came in. The classics rewarded you speed if you kept up a good flow, but you don't have to go fast if you really want to explore the stage instead of speeding through it.

Most of 2D games were far shorter than most of the other games for how fast you would go; have you ever seen the Green Hill Zone? You could complete that in, uh, in less than 30 seconds EASILY.

Okay son, do you think you can cool it down a bit here? If you want to make attempts to sound witty, this isn't the place to do so.

3D Sonic Games have focused more on platforming, methinks, as they were way faster.

They had a lot less to do with exploration than the 2D games. There were some hidden nooks and crannys every now and then but there were way more straight foward compared to the Classics which encouraged exploration more than it did speed.

[Tyranno]

It's not horrible. It's just different. And it's good to have different levels that play differently, otherwise it's the same thing for every level and game, what changes is the number and location of pits and spikes.

There's playing different, and then there's playing so different it not only runs counter to the spirit of the game, it's unfairly hard as well.

But speed was more of a reward before it became something you could get at the push of a button.

People keep saying this, and I'm kinda getting sick of it. Just press a button in Unleashed, and you do get speed... and then you need to CONTROL IT. Seriously, thinking the boost is just a WIN BUTTON doesn't pay attention to how it's actually used properly in the game.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Razorsaw

[Badnik Zero]

^ I think the main argument is that LOLspeed can't be the only thing to make a game, and often it renders level design useless. Hills, loops, and other speed fixtures aren't useful gimmicks when Sonic is the speed himself. If the environment stops being interactive, the games feel shallow, play themselves, etc.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

People keep saying this, and I'm kinda getting sick of it. Just press a button in Unleashed, and you do get speed... and then you need to CONTROL IT. Seriously, thinking the boost is just a WIN BUTTON doesn't pay attention to how it's actually used properly in the game.

Well sorry to hear that you're sick of it, but I'm not the person you should be directing that to.

Reason why is because I never said it was a WIN BUTTON, I'm saying that it's something that becomes a much bigger focus than it should be.

I can control it, that much everyone should be aware of, but Unleashed's daytime stages are so focused on such speed that it doesn't encourage exploration and rather has you just running through the stage as fast as possible. The daytime stages are more akin to running through a hall, and although there are branching paths the game feels so straightforward that they don't seem to stand out as much.

Edited February 24, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tyranno]

And?

That doesn't mean the game doesn't have depth. That that can't be challenging or rewarding on its own.

You need to do more than just say something should exist for existence's sake. Mastering all the nuances of a level, whether they go by fast are not, is part of what's REWARDING about using the boost well.

And there are plenty of level challenges. Holoska's ice strips, the narrow high speed switching of rails, spikes, jumps and ramps that are enhanced with the use of the boost. Look at the city stage... think of all the parts where you can discover a different route by way of intuition and the air boost. Are they expansive areas of their own? No, but finding them and controlling your speed through all of it to get JUST the perfect run is a worthwhile experience on its own.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And?

That doesn't mean the game doesn't have depth. That that can't be challenging or rewarding on its own.

Well it does for me at least. I felt that there was a lot less interaction with the stage than there usually is during the daytime stages, partly because running through the stage at the speeds Sonic was moving in that game felt bland.

You need to do more than just say something should exist for existence's sake. Mastering all the nuances of a level, whether they go by fast are not, is part of what's REWARDING about using the boost well.

I thought I did say more than something existing for existence's sake when I was talking about exploration. But if I didn't then here's what I'm saying about it.

The levels in games before Unleashed (particularly the Adventures and the Classics) are set where you can fool around the stage if you want or if you want to just cut to the chase you can just go through the level. There's unlockables that you can find around certain levels (some which are required in the Adventures) that could help you reach other places that you normally would never have reached without them.

They're more like a playground. You can do what you feel like doing in order to have fun, while Unleashed feels more like a racetrack in that the fun comes more from running through it instead.

And there are plenty of level challenges. Holoska's ice strips, the narrow high speed switching of rails, spikes, jumps and ramps that are enhanced with the use of the boost. Look at the city stage... think of all the parts where you can discover a different route by way of intuition and the air boost. Are they expansive areas of their own? No, but finding them and controlling your speed through all of it to get JUST the perfect run is a worthwhile experience on its own.

For some people, yes. For me, however, it's not a worthwhile experience.

The thrills just don't last. I don't want JUST the perfect run through of the level, I want more than that. I like to interact with the level more than just run through it. Speed is great, but if that's the one aspect of the game (or half in Unleashed's case) that the gameplay is based on, then I feel that the game becomes bland after a while.

Now I'm the last person who will say Unleashed is a bad game for both the day and night stages, but I am someone who thinks that there could've been more to the day stages than just speeding through them like you generally do.

Does that clear up my thoughts on the whole speed thing?

Edited February 24, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

I understand what you're saying. But my crazy imagination makes me believe there is a way it could be utilized even in areas laden with obstacles, especially when it comes to this design that I'm trying to get across.

Perhaps through a combination of better indication as to what's coming up (I say clever use of the anime cliche' of personifying a sudden epiphany with an exclamation mark or twitch), lengthening the landscape not only as a visual cue that the boost has been activated and your speed has increased, but to further help the player dodge obstacles, sandbox-reminiscent level design that doesn't punish the player for maneuvering how they want or even falling from high spots, and allowing the boost to be used in combination with aerial/spinning maneuvers to regain ground, recover your position, or simply play with Sonic and see how far you can break normal physics. Does that make sense?

Ah yes, I love abusing a physics system for fun. I don't quite understand some of your ideas though. A generic warning doesn't really seem to have much use (So maybe I'm getting the wrong idea here), and I can't tell what you mean by lengthening the landscape.

You're under the assumption that the only thing Sonic is suitable for are games that are strictly classic which I don't agree with. I find the physics and speed styles to both be fun and valuable in their own right, and the latter is one that Sonic can take advantage of without being out of his element. They are also just as unique as one another-- Really, where are the fans like me supposed to go to find character-based platformers that emulate Unleashed or Rush with their emphasis on speed and twitchy gameplay?

These aren't really necessarily mutually exclusive desires.

[Sean]

Also I want to know why everyone thinks Rush's jump was horribly broken, I see no problem with it.

I wasn't sure at first myself, but I realized my problem with it the other day. Sonic's jumping mechanic is perhaps far too precise for its own good. Sonic completely stops in mid-air if you let go of the D-pad, not to mention he also gains too much momentum in the air compared to how he controls in the Genesis originals. There are also moments in which you have to completely stop in your tracks (Huge Crisis, pyramid level) and it's incredibly strange when attacking enemies.

[Saint Nathan]

I wasn't sure at first myself, but I realized my problem with it the other day. Sonic's jumping mechanic is perhaps far too precise for its own good. Sonic completely stops in mid-air if you let go of the D-pad, not to mention he also gains too much momentum in the air compared to how he controls in the Genesis originals.

Yeah, but I wouldn't call that broken. I haven't had a problem with it, hell, it just made navigating things easier.

However, the momentum in the air thing is kinda off, he moves faster in the air than on the ground while jumping. He doesn't need to gain as much speed. But it's not so much broken, more that it's not really a SONIC kind jump.

[Rusty Spy]

And just to confirm your possible suspicions, I'm actually fine with the idea of genre-roulette too, whether it tries to integrate itself into normal gameplay (Heroes, ShtH, Black Knight) or stand separately on its own (SA1, SA2, Unleashed). I only get pissed off if said genre-roulette isn't fun or has debatable problems. I have very loose expectations for this series, obviously; The only real consistent bullet on my checklist for an adequate Sonic game nowadays is "Make colorful animals do awesome shit."

side note: ugh, okay, of COURSE my mom had to wake up and find me up past my curfew and turn off the computer on me just after finishing a long post.

Take 2

Though I'm not entirely opposed to genre roulette in Sonic games and while I'd rather just stick to building upon the core gameplay and doing all the interesting things with solely that, if your gonna do a genre roulette, I'd say the best possible way to do it is to build the whole game entirely around that style while still keeping it within the realms of what makes a Sonic game, i.e something along the lines of fast, active, and fun. Build the game around that style, but build that style around Sonic's core gameplay and gameplay style.

It's what separates Unleashed from basically every other Sonic game that had it's own gimmick. While Heroes, ShTH, Black Knight, or any of the Adventures usually get flak from their gimmicks, I believe the main reason Unleashed was so highly praised(more or less) was because it's gimmick was as much a part of the main game as the core gameplay because it WAS the core gameplay. Unleashed did so much to it's daytime gameplay style and was chock full of it's own neat gimmicks that enhanced it's gameplay far beyond what all the others did. While it wasn't the best example of using Sonic's iconic gameplay elements, it did what it intended to do so well that it didn't really matter, it was just as fun and varied as what you'd find in the classic games and is something that any other gameplay gimmick inserted into future games should do.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Black Spy

[azoo]

I think Sonic would work well if the momentum idea was worked on a little more. Take what the classics gave (with rolling and stuff) and branch it with some stuff like from Sonic Unleashed and parkour ideas that aid the flow of momentum in 3D space.

For example, Sonic should be able to run just about as fast as he does in Sadv2, including his momentum boost thing. Then allow Sonic to use "spinball physics" to peirce breakneck speeds. Now of course, imagine this in 3D space, and give Sonic a jump attack and an instashield/air slash on the jump button in midair and a short-range jump dash/homing attack set to the crouch button. Now, imagine Sonic having the drift and quickstepping to aid his movement as he is moving at a super high speed, and parkour-like moves; like vaulting, walljumping, wallrunning and ledgevaulting. These things could go together and blend into a perfectly flowing game, and not even requiring the use of trial-and-error gameplay. Games with good gameplay can suffer from terrible level design, which is what could kill the game altogether. That was the problem with Sadv2 and Unleashed. And although people would complain "BUT THAT WOOD BEE TU KUMPLEZX"; well, who cares? Little kids didn't complain when the game was complex in controls and level design for Unleashed, well why should they here, especially considering the level design wouldn't be much of a problem? Sure, you may also say that the series should also just stick with a run/roll/jump mechanic (which I definitely don't disagree here), but this isn't the same case. I'm talking making Sonic even more for the modern audience, not making a 100% transition of classic Sonic to 3D (if you want that, see my game Project: FreeRunner ).

Besides, level design would be built for parkour and acrobatics, platforming, exploration and all that as well, although still built with level gimmicks that help keep the momentum. For a good example on how a Sonic game could do this stuff well, see: Mirror's Edge 2D. It features gameplay very similar to Sonic, but with parkour, and it's simple. You go through momentum-based platforming stages where you keep up the pace and flow of the gameplay. Sliding works alot like rolling, which allows you to speed up your momentum down slopes, and you can also do wall jumping, vaulting and wallrunning by just latching to the walls and/or pressing up while near the wall to run on. So really if ME2D just had a Spindash And allow you to hurt enemies by jumping on them or rolling (sliding) into them, you'd have a very very nice 2D Sonic game.

[lounge]

3d sonic games nowadays are made in an 18 month period. If they want to make a great physics system, they need to make it a 3 year period. Every 1 or 2 years we get one. They need to stop doing this. It's not a big deal to wait 3 years (like zelda)

Yuji Naka is the sole man that came up with the momentum based physics. Creating a physics system like that on the genesis as well as doing all the other main, grunt programming in less than a year is an amazing achievement. Sonic Team needs programmers like that.

[azoo]

Lounge, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just had to put that out there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I thought one of the main problems with trying to delay things had something to do with cost? The longer it's delayed, the more money it might cost.

Of course, I don't fully know the notion behind it. Tho Sega does have a bad habit of trying to get certain games in around the winter holidays where people are spending a lot of money.

[eXtaticus]

People keep saying this, and I'm kinda getting sick of it. Just press a button in Unleashed, and you do get speed... and then you need to CONTROL IT. Seriously, thinking the boost is just a WIN BUTTON doesn't pay attention to how it's actually used properly in the game.

Yes, but it's nigh-on impossible to control because of Sonic Unleashed's god-awful game engine; initiating the boost not only decreases the game's depth, but it also adds a severe level of unnecessary difficulty to a game that should have been FAR easier to play than it was.

Of course, intelligent use of the boost on decent games like Sonic Rush provides a whole new level of enjoyment to the game, as it was - unlike Unleashed - actually designed well enough to adequately cope with the player moving at that high a velocity.

[Phos]

They just need to write the physics engine once in a portable language and they can reuse it indefinitely.

[lounge]

They just need to write the physics engine once in a portable language and they can reuse it indefinitely.

The problem is that they don't have any good physics programmers to do so, or even come up with that idea for that matter. Instead, they create engines that fall into the game designers' categories of moving fast. As well as waste a good chunk of their budget hiring CG studios to create costly movies, when that's one of the least important parts of a game.

Even Nintendo doesn't hire CG studios to do that cause they know better.

Sonic Team needs to follow the Mario 64 formula. That is create and perfect the characters movements, and then build the levels around that.

[SykoTech]

Wow. The OP just summed up how I feel closer than any other community post I've seen. Good show.

The only thing I'd disagree with is Hydrocity. I thought that level had a great flow, even the underwater parts. Nothing at all like playing "red light, green light" in Labyrinth Zone. I'd say Sonic 2's Aquatic Ruin is a bigger culprit. Every time I play that level, I have to make sure to stay on high ground as to not have my flow ruined by the drag that is that level's underwater level design.

But other than that slight difference....damn.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Tentomon