Trying to take a bit of a different angle on the Blaze paradox

[Blazey Firekitty]

Oookay...

I know the question of why Blaze is apparently both from the future and another dimension has come before, and I know that there will never be a real answer to the question as long as Sega's not giving one.

My question, however, is not whether the paradox can be resolved, but whether or not is should be resolved. A lot of Sonic characters have been able to get by with little to no back-story. So, do you think that Blaze could work as a character who just kind of shows up and goes "Hi guys, Eggman took my Emeralds again," or do you feel that her background needs to be more consistent for her to be a viable recurring character?

[Blue Blood]

Some of the characters have stories surrounding them, making a story vital to their presence: Silver, Blaze, Shadow. Other show up just to be there: Amy, Tails, Cream. Knuckles is an odd-ball and fits into both categories. Blaze's story should either be skilfully fixed (and I laugh at that notion) or retconned to the Rush story.

Why? 06 has no impact on the overall plot of the series. While yes it did happen, it is just about the only story that can actually be ignored within the games. Even the Heroes plot has some significance. Furthermore, the Rivals games were never released in Japan. That doesn't make them non-canon at all (and Chronicles has always been canon, before and after the Japanese release btw), but it does lead them to obscurity. Heck, even within the fanbase they're often ignored. Rush and Rush Adventure (and Black Knight-ish) are the only appearances of Blaze that actually matter. It's a lazy option to retcon, but certainly one that would work. And I'd be happy with it. The Rush story is superior to the one imposed by Rivals and 06 because it's just simpler and explains more.

Fixing the story by somehow explaining why there are/were two Blazes with entirely different back stories is the other option. It would likely involve more time and dimensional travel. I'd quite like to see it properly fixed with an explanation but can't see it being done well.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Sean]

Oh god Sega should just completely ignore this paradox shit surrounding the series and just go back to the simpler terms of Rush; being stuck in other worlds, etc. Excuse plots aren't all bad.

To be honest whenever more games are released that poke holes in previous installments (and within their own), I always prefer the "going back to basics" route rather than trying to patch up old holes while creating new ones (oh hey there, Nomura). But then again, I don't really care all that much about plots in Sonic games, I just like excuse plots because it's easier to ignore the storyline in them.

[Badnik Zero]

Two Blazes is too complicated and stupid just for the sake of '06. It could reach depths of Shadow the Hedgehog proportions. A game series like Sonic doesn't need to have characters more complicated than a paragraph bio. It's not like the comics either, where you can draw plots out over the course of a year, because the games don't release that fast. The only thing sacrificed by putting Blaze back in her dimension (where she started and belongs, by the way) is her relationship with Silver. Putting her in the future compromises the Rush games, which were on a level '06 doesn't touch in charm, gameplay, reception, or anything else. So it's really a question of Rush vs. '06 for me. Blaze came before Silver also, so I don't see the need to retcon for a newer character. I choose Rush every time over '06.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[Guest]

Blaze is from an alternate dimension in the future. At least that's what I say, so no big paragraphs here.

[Blue Blood]

Blaze is from an alternate dimension in the future. At least that's what I say, so no big paragraphs here.

That doesn't actually make sense in context with 06, Rivals and Rush.

Rush: Nega is Eggmans counterpart in Blazes world.

Rivals: Nega is a descendant of Eggman.

06: Never a mention of Nega.

Amongst several other factors...

Because the game never explicitly explain the broken story, all interpretations are mere fan speculation. The only one that could work is that it's broken. But that's not what the topic is to discuss. How would you like to see it handled? As far as the non-erased story goes, there's never been anything said about Blazes dimension and the future.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Guest]

That doesn't actually make sense in context with 06, Rivals and Rush.

Rush: Nega is Eggmans counterpart in Blazes world.

Rivals: Nega is a descendant of Eggman.

06: Never a mention of Nega.

Amongst several other factors...

Because the game never explicitly explain the broken story, all interpretations are mere fan speculation. The only one that could work is that it's broken. But that's not what the topic is to discuss. How would you like to see it handled? As far as the non-erased story goes, there's never been anything said about Blazes dimension and the future.

I just wanted to avoid a large paragraph is all...

[Saint Nathan]

That doesn't actually make sense in context with 06, Rivals and Rush.

Rush: Nega is Eggmans counterpart in Blazes world.

Rivals: Nega is a descendant of Eggman.

06: Never a mention of Nega.

Amongst several other factors...

1. I have no recollection of Nega ever SAYING he's Eggman's counterpart. It's just assumed.

2. Nega != Blaze. Nega has never said, nor has anyone said, that he comes from the same dimension. Hell, Nega's stories boil down to what he says happens, and there are no other witnesses nearby at all. For all we know he could be a genetically advanced monkey with a severe balding problem.

[Blue Blood]

1. I have no recollection of Nega ever SAYING he's Eggman's counterpart. It's just assumed.

2. Nega != Blaze. Nega has never said, nor has anyone said, that he comes from the same dimension. Hell, Nega's stories boil down to what he says happens, and there are no other witnesses nearby at all. For all we know he could be a genetically advanced monkey with a severe balding problem.

1. Fair enough. But the assumption certainly is a reasonable one.

2. Nega hails from the future in Rivals, with no mention of the Sol emeralds. Also, why would he work with Eggman, turn Eggman into a card, work with Eggman again and then try to kill him? Blaze might mention that Nega comes from her world in Rush. And you don't want to over-analyse the situation with "Oh but there were no witnesses!" cause... like, Rush and Rivals don't 'boil down' to deep plots at all.

The storyline flawed. Very flawed.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Blaze actually does say that Nega is from her world when you reach the Dead Line boss fight as Sonic. Both Blaze and Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "our world."

Then again, I suppose it's still entirely possible that Blaze merely thinks that is where Nega comes from, and that he has been lying to her for the entire time he has known her. It wouldn't be entirely out of character, given his apparent affinity towards deception and manipulation.

[BlazingTales]

Ignoring 06...

There's also the possibility that Blaze's world is "the future," or at least a future parallel to that of the main timeline.

So A) In the Rush series, Blaze and Nega don't know their world is actually Sonic's future, but they later discover that it is somehow and Nega finds out Eggman was the ancestor that ruined everything for him and insanity ensues.

or B ) Blaze and Silver could be alternate futures. One with "happy" Nega and one with mad.

Kind of convoluted, though, and I'm sure it still leaves behind half a dozen plot holes...

Edited March 2, 2010 by BlazingTales

[Octarine]

Rivals could easily have been a fresh start for Silver's backstory and a perfect solution to the '06 paradox, but it just had to include Nega. Silver really ought to have had some sort of original villain to fight, or even just a different Eggman descendant. Ugh.

Of all the characters who could've found themselves in a paradox like this, though, I guess we should be thankful that it's Nega. He's so crazy that he doesn't really need to make sense, I guess; he was only barely prevented from destroying the planet he was at the core of in Rush Adventure, so there's no telling how reckless he might be when it comes to meddling with space-time. Creating far-future clones of yourself who are descended from your alternate-dimension counterpart are all part of the job when you're dealing with SCIENCE.

I'm fine with getting an explanation, but I'd prefer it to be one that first and foremost respects what was laid out in the Rush games. None of this "alternate dimension in the future" stuff, thanks... I can understand how it might appeal to some, but I don't want to see the perfectly good stories of the Rush games twisted to make sense of later mistakes.

[Aquaslash]

That doesn't actually make sense in context with 06, Rivals and Rush.

Rush: Nega is Eggmans counterpart in Blazes world.

Rivals: Nega is a descendant of Eggman.

06: Never a mention of Nega.

Amongst several other factors...

Eggman Nega is a copious liar with the ability to jump space and time. He's also batslag insane. Therefore EVERYTHING he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

As far as the topic, I would LIKE for it to be as simple as "Hi Eggman stole my emeralds". If there has to be a story, I'd rather it go the lighthearted way, and even take jabs at itself. I don't think Sonic ever worked with serious plots anyway.

[Saint Nathan]

Blaze actually does say that Nega is from her world when you reach the Dead Line boss fight as Sonic. Both Blaze and Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "our world."

Ah yes I remember now. But even so, as you said, Nega's true intentions are always involving death and deceit, so nobody REALLY can certainly say where he's from.

[Phos]

I'm not sure why they has Blaze being from the future in 06, it really seems like she didn't fit, it didn't make sense for someone like her to be there.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Ah yes I remember now. But even so, as you said, Nega's true intentions are always involving death and deceit, so nobody REALLY can certainly say where he's from.

Heh, true, he's an enigma!XD

I'm not sure why they has Blaze being from the future in 06, it really seems like she didn't fit, it didn't make sense for someone like her to be there.

I always found that pretty confusing, as well. If I had to guess, whoever was writing the plot probably intended for her to have some sort of strong connection to Solaris and Elise(What with one half of Solaris being a fire being, "Sol Emerlads", and the whole "I have royal blood, so sacrifice me" thing) but it didn't come across very well in the script.

[SuperStingray]

It's an annoying paradox, but it's also an overly complicated one, so I'd rather they not make a whole big story trying to fix it. Just give me a loose yet interpretable explanation in Blaze's bio for the next game and I'll be satisfied.

Edited March 2, 2010 by SuperStingray

[Frozen Nitrogen]

My catch-all solution for Blaze, and... well, everything weird that happens with continuity, is the same one I articulated in the Chronicles 2 thread many moons ago. Just blame everything on Solaris.

This dude TRANSCENDED TIME. I am in no way convinced that popping back 10 years and blowing out the Flame of Hope even killed him, because his relationship with his own past is nonconventional at the least. By the same token, he ate chunks out of time during The End Of The World, and it seems all too simple that you can right such a horrible outrage to the fabric of time just by taking a few steps back on the tattered fabric.

So 06's End Of The World messed causality up something horrible, leaving behind events without causes, pasts without futures, and a whole bunch of stuff that just doesn't make sense. Blaze, Nega, and Silver having thier origins fucked around with is a manifestation of this chaos in time.

TL;DR - SuperStingray's brief explanation could be along the lines of:

"Caught in a time vortex by the Solaris Incident, Blaze's past is as chaotic and shifting as her flames! Warrior from the future AND princess from another world, can this formidable cat help Sonic stop Eggman newest plan?"

Edited March 2, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Badnik Zero]

My catch-all solution for Blaze, and... well, everything weird that happens with continuity, is the same one I articulated in the Chronicles 2 thread many moons ago. Just blame everything on Solaris.

"Caught in a time vortex by the Solaris Incident, Blaze's past is as chaotic and shifting as her flames! Warrior from the future AND princess from another world, can this formidable cat help Sonic stop Eggman newest plan?"

This is actually a really clever way to solve it. Instead of fixing the problem, make up a reason that it should be screwed up. GENIUS. I'd given up on it.

[Blue Blood]

Eggman Nega is a copious liar with the ability to jump space and time. He's also batslag insane. Therefore EVERYTHING he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Really though? For such a bunch of slap-dash stories do you think anything was given that much thought? Retconned and senseless story still seems like the only explanation to me.

Frozen Nitrogen: Such would also work. They would then be the exact same person from two different realities, which would allow for her to be Silver's best bud and Princess of some place.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Diogenes]

As much as I like the series to have a coherent story, I think it's best to leave this one alone. I've yet to see any solution that's both believable and not disappointing, and at this point I don't believe there is one. As time passes and the fine details blur (aided by '06 being a game most of us would like to forget), the whole tangled mess will be less and less of an issue, until it's just an odd quirk in a game from X years ago.

Thankfully this seems to be the path Sega's taking. Nothing since Rivals 2 has even acknowledged that there's a problem, and the characters' backstories have settled into something simple and consistent.

[HunterTSF]

-=Take 1: Dr. Eggman Nega=-

Blaze actually does say that Nega is from her world when you reach the Dead Line boss fight as Sonic. Both Blaze and Nega refer to Blaze's dimension as "our world."

Interestingly enough, Nega refers to it as "this world", rather than "my world' in Sonic Rush Adventure. There's always the possibility that he masqueraded to be Eggman's transdimensional counterpart merely to gain his trust in Sonic Rush (Although he doesn't even directly claim to be so). Eggman's goal in Sonic Rush was to construct an Eggmanland "beyond this dimension" - and Nega appeared to be assisting him. But was he really? I think not.

1. Fair enough. But the assumption certainly is a reasonable one.

2. Nega hails from the future in Rivals, with no mention of the Sol emeralds. Also, why would he work with Eggman, turn Eggman into a card, work with Eggman again and then try to kill him? Blaze might mention that Nega comes from her world in Rush. And you don't want to over-analyse the situation with "Oh but there were no witnesses!" cause... like, Rush and Rivals don't 'boil down' to deep plots at all.

The storyline flawed. Very flawed.

He was merely using Eggman for ulterior motives - keep this in mind.

Blaze: ... So you guided Eggman to our world.

Eggman Nega: Ha ha ha. It's best to get someone else to do the dirty work. I've been waiting for him to return with the gems.

Eggman Nega was the one who guided Eggman to Blaze's dimension in the first place - he made contact with Eggman first, rather than vice-versa. In effect, he's the one who put the events of Sonic Rush into motion. But why does he have any interest in such crazy interdimensional meddling?

Eggman: And, the Chaos Emeralds

Eggman Nega: and the Sol Emeralds are

Eggman and Eggman Nega: in a manner, like the North and South magnetic poles.

Eggman: They can be used like a pair of magnets and be attracted to each other.

Eggman Nega: Or they can be used to repel the other!

Eggman: In close proximity, these emeralds call out to each other.

Eggman Nega: And the power this would generate... It could destroy the world!

Eggman: However, we merely want to harness the power here.

An interesting lecture. Eggman Nega mentions that the large quantities of power produced by the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds repelling each other could destroy the world. A strange outburst in an explanation of Eggman's lastest Eggmanland scheme, no? Do you really think that Eggman Nega would go through the trouble of luring Eggman into Blaze's dimension, hire him to obtain all of the Sol Emeralds, and then construct his large quantities of boss mechas as well as the oh-so-mysterious Dead Line just so Eggman could build his dinky little Eggmanland? Ha! I think not - Eggman Nega was going to screw him over in the end if he had succeeded, and probably would have destroyed the world afterwards - his primary goal in every succeeding game he's appeared in since.

(Eggman Nega haphazardly appeared at the last minute in Sonic Rush Adventure - it's not really elaborated upon whether or not Eggman and Nega were working together previously. Regardless, he attempted to use the Egg Wizard to destroy the entire freakin' planet at the last minute, despite Eggman's protests against such madness. Teamwork? I think not.)

So his actions in Sonic Rush were not contradictory to his character by any means - Eggman Nega never was Eggman's ally. He's such a twisted guy. <3

That being said, seeing as he's the one who schemed this up in the first place, he probably went out of his way to make himself sound like he was a permanent resident of Blaze's dimension to Eggman (and no, I'm not ousting the possibility that he frequents there). Revealing his true identity as an outcast scientific madman descendant of his from the future would arise quite a bit of suspicion, would it not?

EDIT: *snip* lol disregard Part 2, completely disregarded that Eggman died aboard the Egg Carrier in the bad future of Sonic the Hedgehog - effectively negating Eggman Nega from existence.

Edited March 5, 2010 by HunterTSF

[DarkOverord]

I'd honestly just assumed "in universe" everyone assumed it was just another dimension, but then the plot-twist of "It's actually the future" came along and it changed. That's all :V

[Marcello]

I think Blaze should stay being from another dimension. I don't think the Rush story would make sense otherwise, because of the dimensions colliding together and the Sol Emeralds being the counterparts of the Chaos Emeralds.

And I don't want the Rush story being messed up, because its my favorite since SA2...

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm guessing that if there is ever a Rush 3, Nega will wind up revealing his true intentions to the cast(In other words, stating that he just wants to kill everyone and nothing more, in a more calm, collected way than his outburst at the end of Rush Adventure), and he'll probably be killed off in some way in return. This is assuming that he didn't wind up dead at the end of Rivals 2.