Do you really want to see Super Sonic at the end of each Sonic Game for the rest of Sonic's life

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

Okay so in S3&K if you complete the game and collect the 7 chaos emeralds you earn the true final fight against Eggman in the Doomsday Stage where you play as Super Sonic (or Hyper Sonic if you get the Super Emeralds). Jump 5 years later to Sonic Adventure, and we see a playable Super Sonic once again in the final boss fight. And ever since then, we have had a playable Super Sonic in just every Sonic game, its now pretty much become a tradition for the franchise. But the thing is, that its become simply too repeatitive and predictable. There is absolutely now suspense in a Sonic game if we already know that either some monster of the week or Eggman in a giant mech is gonna be clobbered by *surprise* Super Sonic. I like Super Sonic and I don't have everything against him but would you honestly want to see Super Sonic defeat the final boss of every single Sonic game for the rest of Sonic's career?

I guess the biggest issue with coming up with another method to end a Sonic game is having something just as epic as Super Sonic. Honestly, what's something new that Sega can come up with that can compete against Super Sonic? And when I say something new, I don't mean Darkspines, or Excalibur Sonic, they pretty much use the same formula as Super Sonic. Maybe Sega should try using the 0 ring boss battle against Giants Eggman Robot method or something (yeah not as epic as Super Sonic, I know).

I would like to know if the Sonic fanbase agrees with this. If so what would you rather see instead of Super Sonic? Or do you think we should keep Super Sonic at the end of each Sonic game?

[Noir]

To me, Sonic losing the ability to use his super form and having to actually fight the final boss with his own powers (which are pretty damn amazing as they are) is far more epic than just another Super Sonic fight. That's what I'd like to see, along with in-level Super.

[Diogenes]

While I certainly wouldn't complain about shaking it up now and again (Sonic Battle ending with a straight Sonic vs Emerl fight was great, and I really enjoyed Darkspine as a twist on the usual Super form ending), I don't think it's necessary to do it all that often. I think it's better to fix how Super Sonic endings are handled rather than try a lazy patch job by using it less.

I think it would help feel less contrived from a story standpoint if they brought back special stages functioning the same as they did in the Genesis games, Super Sonic in stages included. The emeralds don't come together because of some deus ex machina because the hero needs to win; they're here because you went and got them. But on the other hand, I think this would wreak havoc on the balance of the game (something I can tolerate in a 15+ year old game, not so much one released now), and it really limits what sort of role they can play in the story. Overall I'd say I'm leaning against it...better to find a more situation-specific reason for a last-battle Super Sonic and leave Super in levels as a post-credits unlockable.

Another story-based problem is that Super Sonic appears to be too powerful. Considering the assumption that it would be more "epic" for Sonic to fight in his normal form; in both cases, Sonic winning is a foregone conclusion due to the nature of the series, but normal-form is still more exciting because we understand the difference in power between the opposing sides. Sonic's going to win, but he really needs to work for it. For Super Sonic, this is not necessarily the case. I don't think it was always like this, though. The Perfect Chaos battle, for example; aside from being the first (and thus not yet overused) "godslaying" in the series, there's still a sense of a significant power gap. First off, Chaos just destroyed an entire city, and setting the battle in the ruins is a constant reminder of this. Second, you're grounded; Super Sonic hasn't yet learned to fly, just to hover above the surface. Chaos towers over you, and you've got to figure out how to get to his soft vulnerable bits instead of just flying straight at them. Third, just getting to him isn't enough; you'll only spiral up into his brain if you've picked up enough speed, and if you didn't play well enough, you'll just be spat out. So while Super Sonic is still obviously stronger than normal Sonic (with the floating on water and the total invulnerability), the battle is still designed to feel like Super Sonic is weaker than his opponent, or at least that there are significant problems in his way.

Ironically, from a gameplay perspective Super Sonic has generally been too chained down. When's the last time a Super battle has actually felt fast? Most of the time it's as if you're lazily floating through the void. After invincibility, Super Sonic's main benefit is the increased speed. Without it, the fights seem dull. I think the best way to handle this would be to remove his flight ability, get him back on the ground, and make the gameplay more like normal Sonic's but pumped up. Being on the ground is going to feel faster than flying in the air (the closer something is, the faster it whips past you), and actually interacting with the ground is more exciting as you change direction more, even if it's just shifting the angle and not a full turn.

[Derg]

If we are to experience another Super Sonic in the last boss kind of thing again, I hope the form is just used as invincibility and increased speed, in a boss fight that is based around the player's skills/a variation of strategic survival; not some flying super charging gameplay switch that is in many situations one of the easiest parts of the game. I guess I would prefer to fight a boss as normal Sonic with increased danger/limited resources, thus having even more strategy required. Also, I agree with the idea of Super Sonic being playable in levels again.

[Lux Klonoa]

Honestly, I don't get why people think having normal Sonic at the final boss would make it more epic than having Super Sonic instead. It just doesn't make any sense to me...unless the boss is weakened enough story-wise or there's some obvious, way-out-in-the-open weak points that Sonic could get to.

Otherwise, it just wouldn't make sense if the boss was developed to be some all-powerful god in the story and Sonic could simply defeat it using his normal abilities. That'd just be, you know, anti-climactic... =/

So I say keep the tradition, but give Super Sonic more abilities to use against the boss, not just headbutting it on. I think that's why people say its getting repetitive, because he ALWAYS headbutts his enemy to oblivion (with the exception of his one-hand Kamehameha-like attack in Chronicles, that is).

(Gah, I type too slow... Ah well, posting this anyway.)

[Evil Sonic]

Super Sonic is a must at the last boss for most people, since having him super makes the boss battle even more epic for lots of people.

A final boss without Super Sonic would be interesting, but a lot of fans and critics would wonder why Super Sonic wasn't included in the game at all and probably bash the game for not including him.

Or Sega could make Super Sonic be in the "final" boss in one game but that boss wouldn't actually be the final one and right after that battle Sonic's powers are drained (because the Emerald's powers wear off) so he has to continue fighting the boss as normal non-Super Sonic... But people would just think that idea is bogus.

[Badnik Zero]

I'm with the majority who say mix it up. Surprise me. I like the final fights, but I want them done well. I can name a handful that just aren't. The one in Rush was pretty cool - you fight going between two characters, two bosses at a time. That's awesome and we see a new super form. Darkspine was cool, but you can't fall back on just any new form each time. Excalibur Sonic was kinda boring, and I expected it. I like this idea of plain Sonic doing a Knuckles vs. Super Mecha fight from S3&K where he's got to take down an enemy with an obvious advantage. Still there might be something missing, unless the fight is really really good. Maybe go half and half, like the boss has a move that shakes the emeralds out of Sonic, and he's gotta scoop them up in a different phase of the boss before continuing? I dunno.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[Glenn]

I wouldn't call it "lazy", I'd call it a tradition.

That's why Sonic Unleashed impressed me: from the beginning, that first cutscene, Super Sonic is established and kickin' ass. And then the Werehog became Sonic's transition of choice, which was great and very refreshing, but seeing Super Sonic during the final fight? I leaned forward, gripped the controller extra-tight and thought "Right, this is it... here we go!" because it was what I wanted to see. I wanted to see Sonic risk everything and go into overdrive (because isn't becoming Super Sonic dangerous to him anyway? That's pretty epic).

So yes please! Let's have more Super Sonic in the future!

[The Tenth Doctor]

The final boss playing as Super Sonic has no problem for me. My problem lies with generic monster of the week. They kinda have to pull them out of the hat or repeat themselves now (Perfect Dark Gaia = Perfect Chaos).

I'd like a game with a difference. Have Super Sonic fight a smaller character, like in Chronicles except where you have to really strategize how you beat him. I mean the end of a game have Super Sonic versus a Super character (Shadow, Metal or whoever). Thats what I want to see.

[Phos]

My signature is relevant to this thread's interests.

But seriously now, the supersonic fights of late have been among the worst designed parts of their respective games, and Perfect Dark Gaia was the sort of thing I would expect to see on the AVGN, with its random hits from nowhere and nonstandard timer.

It seems to me as though Doomsday Zone had the formula pretty much down. The Super Sonic fight should come after a final boss that would be satisfying in its own right as the end of the game, and there shouldn't really be a real risk of failure, there should always be a way to crawl back. I've always thought that dieing in these sequences ruins an important part of the plot. It should really just be part of the good ending.

[JezMM]

I've always thought that dieing in these sequences ruins an important part of the plot. It should really just be part of the good ending.

I agree, though I personally had no trouble with Perfect Dark Gaia on either version. I failed the final QTE on 360 once but thankfully the fact that the music doesn't restart and it went right back into it meant the mood wasn't ruined.

Someone suggested the idea of Super Sonic failing half way through the fight and turning back to normal Sonic for the final bit. As long as the music and envioronment is epic enough, I think it could hold it's own as a final boss. One thing I loved about Unleashed's finale is that you were severely challenged with all the skills you'd gained throughout the game in the little running sections.

I really want a final final boss that, Super or not, acts as a final exam for my abilities, rather than a first AND final exam for some new abilities. This is why I personally loved Unleashed's last boss since it had a combination of the two.

Though yeah, I do agree that regardless of how hard the final boss is, the last bit should be easy.

Edited March 5, 2010 by JezMM

[Thirsty Pocket]

Super Sonic is just fine... when the plot involves Chaos Emeralds. Now those things really need to stop being the key to everything in the series. As for Super Sonic himself... I would really hate to see him left out of the series. I didn't have him for Sonic 1 and Sonic CD. I didn't NEED him for Sonic 2. But now that I HAVE to use him in every boss final fight and am not given the OPTION to us him outside the last boss ( or not use him against the last boss ), he's just not the same. ...I don't mind Super Sonic in every game... But like all of Sonic's buddies, he'd be much more appreciated if he was optional.

[Mollfie]

To me, Sonic losing the ability to use his super form and having to actually fight the final boss with his own powers (which are pretty damn amazing as they are) is far more epic than just another Super Sonic fight.

This sounds cool to me. But I don't mind either way, both ways are good. They just need to keep it fresh.

Like Jez has said, I thought it was good in Unleashed that it wasn't just a fight between Super Sonic and Dark Gaia, you had the running sections inbetween which tested you and also built suspense.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Mollfie

[Rusty Spy]

I would rather prefer a Super fight as long as it isn't too contrived from normal Sonic gameplay and was significantly hard and very engaging. A little more movement and sense of constant danger from the boss hitting you and making you lose precious time to collect rings.

As long as they can pull off a neat flying fight against the boss that offers some actual challenge, I'd be all for it, though making such a fight as normal Sonic would be easier, given that you aren't overpowered already.

Also make the fight a reasonably long one too, mainly one that has several different phases.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Black Spy

[Noir]

Honestly, I don't get why people think having normal Sonic at the final boss would make it more epic than having Super Sonic instead.

Defeating the final boss with Sonic would make the boss seem like it takes some skill to defeat. As Diogenes said, Super Sonic makes it far too easy. It takes little effort. Using regular Sonic not only would make the boss appear much more powerful, but make Sonic appear more powerful. It's a win/win since it deviates from the traditional formula and stays fresh.

[Diogenes]

Using regular Sonic not only would make the boss appear much more powerful, but make Sonic appear more powerful.

The problem with that, though, is if you do it too much, you run into some of the same problems Super Sonic has. And while Super Sonic can justify regularly beating down gods by being temporarily powered by the infinite energy of the Chaos Emeralds, normal Sonic has no such condition. If normal Sonic can take down gods, what possible threat could Eggman himself pose?

[Sean]

I think bosses and final bosses in video games should reflect the skill the player has built up over the duration of the whole game. Super Sonic battles don't do that, since they have completely different control schemes used only for that sequence. In fact the majority of normal battles in recent Sonic games don't really do this, they're more like self-contained mini-games as far as I can recall. That's probably why I hate Sonic bosses now.

[JezMM]

Also make the fight a reasonably long one too, mainly one that has several different phases.

To be fair, mood-wise that was an awesome final boss, and the penultimate boss had three phases and a final sombre silent GIANT room to navigate to the top of in a speedy but epic manner before that boss.

That and if you beat him under a minute first time you are crazy. 8I

[SKSpawn]

Personally, I relish the chance to play as Super Sonic at the end of each game, no matter what the haters say, and don't particularly find any of the 3D game engines suitable contexts for Super Sonic to work in levels (imagine playing Kingdom Valley as Super onic o_O).

But I do admit Super Sonic is something that should feel rightly epic. In Unleashed, the Super Sonic section was really...weird. I was playing the PlayStation 3 version, and after the gruellingly tedious Light-Gaia-TransFormer-boxing-match thing (which I *hated*) and the tricky Sonic sections, I was really happy to get my hands back on Super Sonic....only to find he floated around doing nothing, and then had to clumsily dash across the surface of a bubble taking out tentacles :s The quick-time event part was much better, and I really enjoyed it, except the entire time I was freaking out and thinking that if I failed I would have to replay the ENTIRE thing all over.

Strangely, though, I was actually expecting to play as the Werehog in a Super state for the final battle, which I think may have been a missed opportunity. I do like it when some of the games end with a normal Sonic boss fight (like Battle) but seeing as the plot for most of the games (nay, the series) concerns someone or something either trying to get the Chaos Emeralds or being related to them in some way, then Super Sonic is just a natural occurance. Evil is countered by good, and if that evil is powered by the Emeralds then so should the good be, just makes sense to me.

I wonder if there's room for a later game to maybe have Super Sonic fight in the last battle, and then unlock a series of boss battles and/or levels specially catered to Super Sonic's abilities. Like, say, instead of racing through a tropical island zone, you fly through the sky of the same level? Dashing and homing in on enemies, collecting rings, and blasting through huge robotic enemies along the way (possibly in a time trial-like environment). Or, you can choose to replay the bosses of the game but in Super Sonic mode (like the Fierce Deity Mask in Majora's Mask), thereby in a possibly more limited and forgiving stage environment, but the tactics and threat of the bosses is increased. Just seems to me like if a lot of people criticse Sonic's gameplay in his normal stages, then I fail to see how Super Sonic can work any better...he'd go flying right into those bottomless pits :|

[Rusty Spy]

To be fair, mood-wise that was an awesome final boss, and the penultimate boss had three phases and a final sombre silent GIANT room to navigate to the top of in a speedy but epic manner before that boss.

That and if you beat him under a minute first time you are crazy. 8I

Obviously the time was exaggerated.

Yeah the atmosphere was pretty awesome, but the fact that he's dead pretty quickly kinda dulls the mood a tad bit.

Though the penultimate bosses don't really feel like fighting the final boss since they're not really have the same feel as, say, Twilight Princess' final boss.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Black Spy

[JezMM]

Yeah the atmosphere was pretty awesome, but the fact that he's dead pretty quickly kinda dulls the mood a tad bit.

Actaully it took me a fair 5 mins or so to beat him first time but meh. Wind Waker as a whole was somewhat easy (or I was just better at Zelda at that age than I was at OoT - prolly more likely since now I find OoT piss-easy but WW still somewhat challenging).

I will agree that TP's finale felt more "complete" than in chunks but that never really bothered me. To be honest the climb up is one of my favourite parts of the WW finale. I was so excited the whole time, and the sense of scale in that room is just simply brilliant.

[edge.]

To me, Sonic losing the ability to use his super form and having to actually fight the final boss with his own powers (which are pretty damn amazing as they are) is far more epic than just another Super Sonic fight. That's what I'd like to see, along with in-level Super.

Took the words right out of my hands.

[Aquaslash]

The big reason why I'm so against the Super Battles being the only use of Super Sonic is that 9 times out of ten, they lack the sense of enhanced speed that Super Sonic is supposed to bring.

A lot of it has to do with the setting. The only two battles were you really felt faster were Perfect Chaos and The Moon Zone boss. Now in all the space bosses, the Super States MIGHT have been faster, but due to being the air, and not seeing too many things move past you, you can't really tell. Unleashed is an exception, where I could perceive that I was faster, but at the same time, I didn't feel faster at all.

The Super States should be like, this explosion of power and speed, but the modern games are doing a REALLY poor job at conveying this. The biggest offender by FAR is Super Silver vs Solaris. Anyone who's played that fight could tell you that outside of the section where he's mandated, Super Silver is completely useless. He's basically a sitting duck for the whole fight, with no really visible stat increase. I bet that's why he's the first Super State to have a quill change since Sonic (Knuckles and Shadow do not count as those were temporary). He was overcompensating for being so piss poor.

Then there's cases like Sonic Heroes, which have the gall to not make the Super States faster at ALL. At least it made up for it by jacking all three members' strength up way past level three, as well as adding Super Knuckles's third combo move of badassery.

[SykoTech]

I think bosses and final bosses in video games should reflect the skill the player has built up over the duration of the whole game. Super Sonic battles don't do that, since they have completely different control schemes used only for that sequence.

I agree with this.

When I play Metroid Prime (No effin' Mario example here!), I have to use all my beams, missiles, bombs, and even visiors to take bosses down. Especially the final one....Metroid Prime. Of course, Sonic has never really had an arsenal like Samus does, but it still feels much better to beat the most powerful enemy using methods I've earned or have always had. If Super Sonic just upgraded Sonic's abilities at the cost of rings (like how Hyper Mode upgrades Samus at the cost of health in Prime 3's finale) it would be cool. But instead, he turns the game into a ram-the-glowing-red-pimple sequence. Lame.

[JezMM]

I agree with this.

When I play Metroid Prime (No effin' Mario example here!), I have to use all my beams, missiles, bombs, and even visiors to take bosses down. Especially the final one....Metroid Prime. Of course, Sonic has never really had an arsenal like Samus does, but it still feels much better to beat the most powerful enemy using methods I've earned or have always had. If Super Sonic just upgraded Sonic's abilities at the cost of rings (like how Hyper Mode upgrades Samus at the cost of health in Prime 3's finale) it would be cool. But instead, he turns the game into a ram-the-glowing-red-pimple sequence. Lame.

I agree wholeheartedly. I love final exam bosses - especailly as the penultimate boss before the cool/easy finale.

I would love a Sonic boss that has to be grinded/homing-attacked/light-dashed/ground-pounded/run up/slid under/etc depending on his attacks.