Do you really want to see Super Sonic at the end of each Sonic Game for the rest of Sonic's life

[-Mark-]

Super Sonic is a must at the last boss for most people, since having him super makes the boss battle even more epic for lots of people.

A final boss without Super Sonic would be interesting, but a lot of fans and critics would wonder why Super Sonic wasn't included in the game at all and probably bash the game for not including him.

This, to be honest. When I was nearly finished with SA2, I started to worry that there might not be a Super Sonic boss moment, and was starting to panic a bit at the thought that there might not be. Super Sonic is a staple for last bosses, and I'd imagine most people expect and want him (or a similar equivalent, Darkspines etc) at the end.

I did like how it was handled in Battle, though. Although yeah, that was a spinoff thing. I think for handhelds etc it's okay, but in main console ones he's a must. Well, maybe once without him would be interesting, or like, have Super Sonic then lose it, as others have said.

Would be quite interesting to have to say, fight the last boss as regular Sonic whilst other characters (CPU controlled) gathered the emeralds for you. Basically a survival match against an insanely difficult boss, before you finally get a break and get Super Sonic to kick its ass and win the day, would be damn satisfying.

[Semi-colon e]

It's a nice idea, but they need less monsters and floating on voids. It's not too bad in 2D as you feel like you're actually moving, but in 3D, you're just... there. A high speed chase Super boss after the first phase being a final exam boss (like the aforementioned excellent Metroid Prime boss, which I found curiously easier on Hard mode, and you even use fucking Power Bombs too when the Metroids spam you, but that's another topic). Shadow grinding on Biolizard was pretty cool, but using all your abilities would be awesome. Then again, Egg Viper was also pretty epic and you just used the homing attack and possibly Spin Dash (in the same vein as Meta Ridley probably best beaten with just the Plasma Beam, yet he is still intense and hard as fuck). All depends on the design really.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Semi-colon e

[JezMM]

It's a nice idea, but they need less monsters and floating on voids.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. While Sonic Adventure's last boss feels a bit dated and easy now, I respect at least that it's in an actual arena. Sonic 2006 totally took the cake with regards to voids mind you.

But yeah, I'd like to be able to traverse more physical terrian as Super. Of course, it can still involve flying. Make it something like storming a whole airship in one go (Unleashed's opening-ish)?

Edited March 9, 2010 by JezMM

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I agree with this.

When I play Metroid Prime (No effin' Mario example here!), I have to use all my beams, missiles, bombs, and even visiors to take bosses down. Especially the final one....Metroid Prime. Of course, Sonic has never really had an arsenal like Samus does, but it still feels much better to beat the most powerful enemy using methods I've earned or have always had. If Super Sonic just upgraded Sonic's abilities at the cost of rings (like how Hyper Mode upgrades Samus at the cost of health in Prime 3's finale) it would be cool. But instead, he turns the game into a ram-the-glowing-red-pimple sequence. Lame.

This is exactly what I had in mind.

When you play a game, you get upgrades that help you progress much easier as the challenges get harder. Although, while these upgrades help you get through a part of a game, it is no guarantee that you'll make it on the first try.

Metroid is probably the best example I've heard in regards to how Sonic should upgrade to accomadate new challenges. You start off with one weapon and a visor, but as you progress you get missles, bombs, and upgrades to your suit that change the way how you combat enemies, take damage, traverse across the stage.

For Sonic, he already has a lot of what he normally does from the start of the game to the finish. But when you get to use Super Sonic, a lot of those moves vanish in favor of simply ramming into the enemy.

For example, in SA2, Sonic has available the spindash, homing attack, and somersault. As you go further into the game, you gain the bounce attack, the fire somersault, light speed dash/attack, and the magic hands. That's quite an impressive arsenal despite how simple the game is. However, the Super Sonic battle throws ALL of that away and you're left with just the ability to fly and a dash attack.

The experience becomes cheap in that the boss is not that much of a threatening challenge as he was made out to be, and you're not using any of the moves you've gained as a way to prep you for the final challenge.

Here's another game example where you use all what you've learned: Sly Cooper.

In the first game, you progress stage after stage and learn new techniques that'll help you in the final stage. After gaining these techniques from previous stages, such as the Ninja Spire landing and rail slide which help you in stealth and evasion, you'll end up having to use these techniques as a means of survival in certain portions of the last level. Although the first Sly Cooper game does a bit of a Super Sonic moment at the very end, you're a lot more vulnerable and focused on both combat AND survival if you want to beat the game.

There are plenty of better examples, but all in all, the point is that Super Sonic should not only feel like a boost of your strength and abilities but should also incorporate the moves you've learned over the course of the game instead of throwing them away for a more limited moveset. What's the point in calling him Super if there's nothing that makes you feel Super?

[Scarlet2106]

I'm fine with them as they were in Adventure to Secret Rings, but it's more because I have no real suggestions as to what else they could do.

If they change it to something else and I like that too, then that's fine, but I don't know what I'd like before it actually appears in game form.

[Chaos Rush]

To be honest, that's like saying, "Do you really want to see Sonic collecting rings for the rest of Sonic's life?".

Like collecting rings, Super Sonic to me seems like something that should always be required in a main-series Sonic game. Not having Super Sonic is like not having rings to collect.

[Saint Nathan]

I can't remember who wrote it, but Super Sonic DID know how to fly before Sonic Adventure. It's like Doomsday Zone slipped some minds, eh?

Anyways, why the HELL would a final boss be cooler to beat as Sonic regularly? Because last I checked, Super Sonic was the last resort. With Dark Gaia, Sonic would obviously NEVER be able to kill or even stop a GOD that has been destroying the world since time began. He injured it, yes, but he would stand no match against a creature who could simply destroy him with a single laser beam.

The point of Super Sonic is that there is some condition where Sonic CANNOT fight as normal. Either flying through space, or a flooded city, or fighting a monster that could kill him faster than he can move. It's not a matter of speed, it's not a matter of simply wanting it to be epic, it's the simple fact that he can't fight the motherfucker and he needs to go gold to kick it's ass eight ways to monday. So as long as it's warranted, then why the hell not? I'll be fine with it.

[Diogenes]

I can't remember who wrote it, but Super Sonic DID know how to fly before Sonic Adventure. It's like Doomsday Zone slipped some minds, eh?

Everything flies in space, tho'.

Anyways, why the HELL would a final boss be cooler to beat as Sonic regularly? Because last I checked, Super Sonic was the last resort. With Dark Gaia, Sonic would obviously NEVER be able to kill or even stop a GOD that has been destroying the world since time began.

That's why it's awesome. You look at that thing and think, "Sonic could never beat something like that!", and then he does.

It's one of the most basic tenants of creating exciting conflict. Put a guy up against something bigger than him, and show him struggle to win. The bigger the gap, the more intense the conflict...assuming you can keep it believable, which still leaves a pretty wide range for this series. And if it is something that's just too powerful to believe that Sonic can fight it...well, stop writing every boss to be that powerful. It's not going to hurt the series nor the individual games if Sonic doesn't take out a godlike entity every game (and considering the complaints about the monsters, it'd probably be an improvement).

The point of Super Sonic is that there is some condition where Sonic CANNOT fight as normal. Either flying through space, or a flooded city, or fighting a monster that could kill him faster than he can move. It's not a matter of speed, it's not a matter of simply wanting it to be epic, it's the simple fact that he can't fight the motherfucker and he needs to go gold to kick it's ass eight ways to monday.

You've got the cause and effect reversed, at least from an out-of-universe point of view; they don't have Sonic go Super because there is an enemy that can't be beaten otherwise, they design the enemy so Sonic needs to go Super so they can justify having him go Super. SA easily could've ended without Super Sonic; add more sections of highway, stick one into Perfect Chaos, and have basically the same battle. SA2 could've ended without Super forms; rewrite the story so the Biolizard doesn't fuse with the cannon and finish the fight indoors. Metal Overlord and Black Doom could've both been fought on the ground instead of in the air, Solaris could've had more debris in its void, and so on and so forth.

[rafthehay]

I think the problem (which is not a big one, surely) is that Super Sonic is appearing way too much, like the title of the topic says. Wouldn't you guys find it awesome if, after some 9 or 10 years (since SA2, for example) Sonic transformed into Super Sonic in Sonic 4? People would go crazy, and if it was a well-designed fight, wow, it would be "the" comeback.

Of course it won't happen. Then, I agree with many members here who say that the fights should be more well-designed. Something like an obstacle course where Super Sonic chases Robotnik in a blazing city, or a "monster of the week" battle that takes place in the skies, but instead of just flying around the deity and headbutting weak spots (while collecting rings and listening to his friends on what I think is a radio), Sonic would also have to flee when the enemy starts chasing him with a powerful attack.

[Aquaslash]

I think the problem (which is not a big one, surely) is that Super Sonic is appearing way too much, like the title of the topic says. Wouldn't you guys find it awesome if, after some 9 or 10 years (since SA2, for example) Sonic transformed into Super Sonic in Sonic 4? People would go crazy, and if it was a well-designed fight, wow, it would be "the" comeback.

Of course it won't happen. Then, I agree with many members here who say that the fights should be more well-designed. Something like an obstacle course where Super Sonic chases Robotnik in a blazing city, or a "monster of the week" battle that takes place in the skies, but instead of just flying around the deity and headbutting weak spots (while collecting rings and listening to his friends on what I think is a radio), Sonic would also have to flee when the enemy starts chasing him with a powerful attack.

Ironically, since Sonic 4 is rumored to be the first time Super Sonic returns to a level since 1994, it IS "the" comeback! XD

[eXtaticus]

Though I love it that SEGA have carried the end-game Super Sonic boss fights over to the modern titles and are treating them like a tradition, I resent the fact that he is not an unlockable character who can be played as in the actual levels; Sonic 2 did it, so why can't it happen again?

[speedfreak]

He doesn't always need to have a special final boss battle, but he should always be accessible in level through Chaos Emerald collection.

Hooray for Sonic 4 and it's glorious Super Sonic in level return!

[SuperStingray]

It's fair to say that a final Super Sonic battle is a staple by now, but they should still keep it climactic as they can without making it too predictable. Sonic 06 suffered the worst because not only did the scenario take every cliche from every JRPG ever, but the battle itself was the worst boss fight I have ever experienced. I think Unleashed did the presentation right- I was expecting a Super Sonic battle right from the top, but I was pleasantly surprised to start off with the awesomeness that was the Gaia Colossus. The battle itself was quite good, if a bit lacking; ending all that with a big QTE just felt anticlimactic.

[Badnik Zero]

My main issue with the fights in space extends to most Sonic bosses today. They suck. They're always a variation on the 3D "runway" style bosses, only with less sense of depth and distance. The Biolizard sucks too, to be honest. There are blind spots all over because of the camera placement. You can fall in the little trench there and die instantly. And the Biolizard's egg things will just murder you in the last phase. It's called artificial difficulty. There's usually some measure of homing spam required to beat these guys, especially in Heroes. Little to no strategy is involved. I don't think they've found a style that properly suits bosses, like they did in 2D. Open-arena bosses just feel awkward, between the speed and the camera. My point is that it's not just Sonic in space, it's all boss fights since 1999.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[speedfreak]

I liked SU Wii final battle but disliked SU HD final battle. Doomsday Zone still beats all IMO.

I would love them to shake things up though. Maybe have Super Sonic have to chase something down and then as he catches it he runs out of juice and has to fight it as normal Sonic.

[Rusty Spy]

Everything flies in space, tho'.

Sonic immediately falls to his doom if he reverts back to normal, most likely because of the Earth's gravity.

But S. Sonic would need some sort of propulsion to move through space. That'd be the same propulsion that lets him levitate(something that a lot of people seem to also forget).

That's why it's awesome. You look at that thing and think, "Sonic could never beat something like that!", and then he does.

It's one of the most basic tenants of creating exciting conflict. Put a guy up against something bigger than him, and show him struggle to win. The bigger the gap, the more intense the conflict...assuming you can keep it believable, which still leaves a pretty wide range for this series. And if it is something that's just too powerful to believe that Sonic can fight it...well, stop writing every boss to be that powerful. It's not going to hurt the series nor the individual games if Sonic doesn't take out a godlike entity every game (and considering the complaints about the monsters, it'd probably be an improvement).

You've got the cause and effect reversed, at least from an out-of-universe point of view; they don't have Sonic go Super because there is an enemy that can't be beaten otherwise, they design the enemy so Sonic needs to go Super so they can justify having him go Super. SA easily could've ended without Super Sonic; add more sections of highway, stick one into Perfect Chaos, and have basically the same battle. SA2 could've ended without Super forms; rewrite the story so the Biolizard doesn't fuse with the cannon and finish the fight indoors. Metal Overlord and Black Doom could've both been fought on the ground instead of in the air, Solaris could've had more debris in its void, and so on and so forth.

But there's a fine line between exciting conflict, and just plain being a Gary Stu. If Sonic alone can take out something like Solaris, Dark Gaia, or even Perfect Chaos, than what's the point of having him transform in the first place?

Just make it within the realm of possibility for Sonic to beat on his own.

[Aquaslash]

than what's the point of having him transform in the first place?

I liked it when the point was it was a reward for keeping those colored rocks from Eggman.

[Rusty Spy]

I liked it when the point was it was a reward for keeping those colored rocks from Eggman.

Point is, why are they there anyway when he can punch out bosses stronger than Cthulhu without them?

If all they're good for is to have something that the villain can't has, than why are they objects that Sonic can use to his advantage if he's enough of a game breaker in his universe as it is?

What's the point in him being able to be stronger than he is when he can kill just about anything on his own?

[Marcello]

My main issue with the fights in space extends to most Sonic bosses today. They suck. They're always a variation on the 3D "runway" style bosses, only with less sense of depth and distance. The Biolizard sucks too, to be honest. There are blind spots all over because of the camera placement. You can fall in the little trench there and die instantly. And the Biolizard's egg things will just murder you in the last phase. It's called artificial difficulty. There's usually some measure of homing spam required to beat these guys, especially in Heroes. Little to no strategy is involved. I don't think they've found a style that properly suits bosses, like they did in 2D. Open-arena bosses just feel awkward, between the speed and the camera. My point is that it's not just Sonic in space, it's all boss fights since 1999.

Not really. They were designed to keep you from attackign and if they do that, its perfectly normal difficulty, to me, atleast.

And I totally agree with Black Spy.

[Rusty Spy]

Not really. They were designed to keep you from attackign and if they do that, its perfectly normal difficulty, to me, atleast.

To add on to MarcelloF's post, the eggs are, for one, the only obstacles during the last phase and they move in a predetermined path. Just some quick maneuvering is all that's needed to pass them safely. It's one of the very few really challenging parts of Sonic games.

[JezMM]

You think the eggs are fake difficulty? The eggs are nothing! It's the friggin' randomly swinging beams that always get me. They have such a fast and wide range of movement. So hard to dodge.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You think the eggs are fake difficulty? The eggs are nothing! It's the friggin' randomly swinging beams that always get me. They have such a fast and wide range of movement. So hard to dodge.

It's not that the beams are fast, it's because when you get to where he's shooting two of them at you, you dodge one only to get in the range of the second one coming right after it.

The Eggs were nothing compared to that, at least they didn't knock you all the way to the edge of the boss area should you get hit.

[Badnik Zero]

I guess I was just bitching about the Biolizard in general. But there's plenty of fake difficulty in that fight due to the damned camera angle. I don't like to use classic arguments too much, but the bosses there were so much better, even the 8-bit ones. Bosses were like large enemies, and you used similar strategies to defeat them. Now the camera will screw with you, and you rely on the homing to hit weak spots... and I think there might even be more bosses in the classic series than there are in 3D games since the Dreamcast. They managed to make so many of them and still have creative ideas. What happened to those bosses?

[-Mark-]

Actually, having been playing Classic Collection these last few days, let me just point out how much I dislike Super Sonic as playable in stages- an unusual and probably controversial opinion, but dammit, I'd say Super Sonic spoils the classics for me quite a lot.

He's overpowered, removes almost any and all challenge from the games, and worst of all ear-rapes with an endless loop of the invincibility theme, in effect ruining the games' soundtracks.

This wouldn't matter so much if it were easier to avoid using him, but in Sonic 2, once you have all the emeralds, you can't even jump without it forcing you to go super. S3&K is almost as bad- granted, you have to double-jump there, but still, considering that normally makes you insta-shield... yeah. I think Super Sonic should be easier to not use, for those who don't want to.

Personally I think he actually works much better as a plot device, anyway- also, fun question; when do you reckon the first plot-canon appearance of Super Sonic was? I'd have to go with Doomsday Zone, myself; that's the only time it's actually required for the plot in the classics. And if you add in the mural in Hidden Palace, it seems that much more like some epic kind of prophecy coming to pass (which is actually cheapened by the fact you'll have been playing as Super Sonic through most of the game- also Hyper Sonic can give up and die. D: )

[Aquaslash]

He's overpowered, removes almost any and all challenge from the games, and worst of all ear-rapes with an endless loop of the invincibility theme, in effect ruining the games' soundtracks.

Actually, it's more like he removes previous challenges and adds his OWN set of challenges. Those being: precise platforming and ring management and everything related to it. Oh and then there's getting butt raped by the Launch Base Zone boss.

Granted, Sonic 2 did you bad by forcing you super, but Super Sonic's presence in that game was very rushed. First off, Sonic 2 IS his first canon appearance. The power was supposed to have been given to him in the first place by collecting the Emeralds and being transported to Hidden Palace Zone. However Super Sonic was literally implemented roughly two weeks before the release date, after all the proceeding plans had been cut. The biggest tell tale sign of this is the game breaking signpost glitch in the original Sonic 2 release.

Now if you choose to ignore all that, there's still the fact that Sonic 3 took place right after Sonic 2, and Sonic 3 starts with Knuckles beating Sonic out of his Super State.

Also, just to drag it out:

Super Knuckles: Sonic & Knuckles

Super Mecha Sonic: Sonic & Knuckles

Super Shadow: Sonic Adventure 2

Super Tails: Sonic Heroes

Burning Blaze: Sonic Rush

Super Silver: Oh snap, looks like this never happened :V