Future Sonic Heroes and Mario & Sonic Titles confirmed?

[Thirsty Pocket]

Part of me would want thing to be along the lines of Pikmin 2, where one character can follow you, or be told to stay where they are, and you can switch at any time. No formations... the only necessary one was flight, and it was annoying. Just control your flyer, and swoop down and pick up whoever you need by touching them (this may require longer flying time ). And why restrict the altitude gain to NOTHING??

[ArtFenix]

To be brutually honest, I think another 'Adventure' game is the last thing the franchise needs. And I hope the complete failure of Sonic '06 (and the mixed reactions of Unleashed) lead Sonic Team/Sega away from the Adventure formula completely.

Bullshit. Sonic 06 was bad not because it was bad from the very beginning. The concept was great, there were tons of possibilities to be included in the final version of the game(Super Sonic, Metal Sonic, changing weather or time of day). The game was bad, because it was rushed and not finished, not because of the adventure formula, which is great and if you don't see that, you're either blind or just foolish. And if you are looking for a proof, go and play some awesome games which are Sa and Sa2.

And i don't understand why's everyone so happy about the possibility of "heroes 2". I for one liked the first one, but i remember there were a lot of people bashing "heroes 1" on this forum and now you've changed your mind all of a sudden and you are saying "heroes 1" was great. I don't get it.

Yeah, like they say: the Sonic fanbase is SOOO fucked up..((

Edited March 21, 2010 by ArtFenix

[Phos]

This news just seres to remind me that they still don't seem to have learned a single thing from their mistakes.

[azoo]

If they can fix all the issues Heroes' gameplay had (in other words screw teamwork and make it a glorified Sonic/Tails follow thing like from S2 and ShTH with switching) then it wouldn't be bad. But of course I'm sure they won't learn from those mistakes.

[Detective Shadzter]

Bullshit. Sonic 06 was bad not because it was bad from the very beginning. The concept was great, there were tons of possibilities to be included in the final version of the game(Super Sonic, Metal Sonic, changing weather or time of day). The game was bad, because it was rushed and not finished, not because of the adventure formula, which is great and if you don't see that, you're either blind or just foolish. And if you are looking for a proof, go and play some awesome games which are Sa and Sa2.

And i don't understand why's everyone so happy about the possibility of "heroes 2". I for one liked the first one, but i remember there were a lot of people bashing "heroes 1" on this forum and now you've changed your mind all of a sudden and you are saying "heroes 1" was great. I don't get it.

Yeah, like they say: the Sonic fanbase is SOOO fucked up..((

You can't go about telling people games are great and they're blind or foolish for not liking them, if you like them that's fine but people are entitled to their own opinions of a game wether you like their tastes or not. No matter how many people like a game there is always going to be people who don't like it wether they don't like that genre, the story or any of the games number of features. We all know Sonic '06 was an unfinished mess but you've got to respect that some people don't like any of the other aspects of the game.

I wasn't keen on the adventure formula of Sonic '06 due to the town missions slowing the pace of the game down, some of the gem power ups being so random and with no places in any of the levels that take advantage of most of them unlike SA1 and SA2. I wasn't really keen on Shadow's vehicles and Silver's powers weren't very intuitive.

So, because I don't like any of those features and concepts does that make me blind and foolish? No, it means those aspects didn't please me but I respect that some people might like those features. Different people have different tastes and oppinions and you should respect that.

[ArtFenix]

It's not about me liking the game. It's about these words:

the complete failure of Sonic '06 (and the mixed reactions of Unleashed) lead Sonic Team/Sega away from the Adventure formula completely.

These words just look like they're set in stone. I didn't mean that if you don't like s06 you are blind. The adventure formula is by no means a a failure. And since when it's

the last thing the franchise needs

? Since Sonic 06? But i have already said that it was the game that was rushed, not the concept itself. To remind you, Sa and Sa2 are the best 3D Sonic games ever and you can't deny that, can you?

P.S. And Sonic unleashed plays NOTHING like Sa or Sa2. It rather plays like Sonic rush 3D.

[Detective Shadzter]

It's not about me liking the game. It's about these words:

These words just look like they're set in stone. I didn't mean that if you don't like s06 you are blind. The adventure formula is by no means a a failure. And since when it's ? Since Sonic 06? But i have already said that it was the game that was rushed, not the concept itself. To remind you, Sa and Sa2 are the best 3D Sonic games ever and you can't deny that, can you?

P.S. And Sonic unleashed plays NOTHING like Sa or Sa2. It rather plays like Sonic rush 3D.

You're doing it again, you can't go about saying games are the best ever and that other people can't deny it. If you think they're the best ever that's fine but you can't speak for other people who may have differen't tastes and opinions of the games to you.

I'm aware those people were saying a Sonic Adventure formula is the last thing the franchise needs, that's their oppinion and they can't speak for other fans like you who like that formula no. This proves what I just said as some people like you like the Sonic Adventure type of gameplay then some people like Tentomon here aren't keen on SEGA going down that road again and would like to see another formula implemented. No matter what kind of game SEGA release there will always be people who won't like it aswell as those that do. Lets just wait and see what kind of games come out and hope it will appeal to all kinds of fans though that is an impossible task.

[JezMM]

To remind you, Sa and Sa2 are the best 3D Sonic games ever and you can't deny that, can you?

Oh boy. 8D

Actually no wait, this is a different arguement from the one I started in the SADX topic, I apologise. No I agree, Sonic Adventure formula is fine with me as a concept, though they'd have to fiddle with it a lot to please everyone nowadays. Unleashed only had two different gameplay types and most people were still unhappy.

I prefer SA2 to SA1. Though at the same time I like the hubs of Unleashed because they were actually interesting. SA's and 2006's hubs were bland and empty and the only times you had to do anything other than go from A to B, they were confusing and boring. Hell, even the first time you have to go from A to B they're confusing since it rarely tells you where you're meant to be going next.

Edited March 21, 2010 by JezMM

[ArtFenix]

Okay, okay. Everyone has their own opinion of course. I have mine:

Hm..Sonic adventure had 6 or so types of gameplay, 6 characters to play as (if you count Metal Sonic then 7). It had TONS of mini-games and the chao garden.. and hud-worlds. It had an awesome plot which isn't absurd, it didn't contradict itself.

Sa2 had 3 types of gameplay, 6 characters to play as(if you count multiplayer characters, then there were a lot more characters to play as, especially using codes to play as 2p characters in 1p mode). Sa2 had some mini-games and the chao garden. It had an awesome plot.

SNG had 3 types of gameplay and a lot of characters to play as(well, 3 hedgehogs+amigos from time to time). It had a pretty good, but contradictory plot and hubworlds (which were kinda boring, yes). But the whole game was glitchy+loading times.

What do we have in Sonic unleashed? We have 2 types of gameplay and 1-1,5 characters to play as. We have a VERY simple plot (even heroes had a better one, IMO). We have hub worlds(which weren't as boring as they were in SNG). We didn't have any bonuses, bonus characters to play as, we didn't have so many mini-games, and we have THE WEREHOG(and that damn Chip)(((

And now you're telling me Sa and Sa2 weren't that great and unleashed is soooo awesome? Sure, the daytime levels were great, but that's all. And if i'm not mistaken, Sonic has always been not only about speed, but about platforming as well. Sa and Sa2 had a lot of platforming, while unleashed had only speed-speed-speed-oh-yeah-and-BOOOSST.

So i still don't understand, what's wrong with my statement about Sa AND Sa2 being the greatest 3D Sonic games ever.

Edited March 21, 2010 by ArtFenix

[Detective Shadzter]

And now you're telling me Sa and Sa2 weren't that great and unleashed is soooo awesome? Sure, the daytime levels were great, but that's all. And if i'm not mistaken, Sonic has always been not only about speed, but about platforming as well. Sa and Sa2 had a lot of platforming, while unleashed had only speed-speed-speed-oh-yeah-and-BOOOSST.

So i still don't understand, what's wrong with my statement about Sa AND Sa2 being the greatest 3D Sonic games ever.

There isn't any problem with you saying SA1 & SA2 being the greatest Sonic games ever in your own oppinion, the problem was that you were saying that and then saying we can't deny that which is where I said you shouldnt say that as there are people out there who don't like those games aswell as people that like them. Nothing wrong with you liking the games, just consider that some people don't think they are the best 3D games ever. I enjoyed them myself, well the Sonic, Tails and Shadow levels at least.

[JezMM]

Okay, okay. Everyone has their own opinion of course. I have mine:

Hm..Sonic adventure had 6 or so types of gameplay, 6 characters to play as (if you count Metal Sonic then 7). It had TONS of mini-games and the chao garden.. and hud-worlds. It had an awesome plot which isn't absurd, it didn't contradict itself.

Sa2 had 3 types of gameplay, 6 characters to play as(if you count multiplayer characters, then there were a lot more characters to play as, especially using codes to play as 2p characters in 1p mode). Sa2 had some mini-games and the chao garden. It had an awesome plot.

SNG had 3 types of gameplay and a lot of characters to play as(well, 3 hedgehogs+amigos from time to time). It had a pretty good, but contradictory plot and hubworlds (which were kinda boring, yes). But the whole game was glitchy+loading times.

What do we have in Sonic unleashed? We have 2 types of gameplay and 1-1,5 characters to play as. We have a VERY simple plot (even heroes had a better one, IMO). We have hub worlds(which weren't as boring as they were in SNG). We didn't have any bonuses, bonus characters to play as, we didn't have so many mini-games, and we have THE WEREHOG(and that damn Chip)(((

And now you're telling me Sa and Sa2 weren't that great and unleashed is soooo awesome? Sure, the daytime levels were great, but that's all. And if i'm not mistaken, Sonic has always been not only about speed, but about platforming as well. Sa and Sa2 had a lot of platforming, while unleashed had only speed-speed-speed-oh-yeah-and-BOOOSST.

So i still don't understand, what's wrong with my statement about Sa AND Sa2 being the greatest 3D Sonic games ever.

Number of gameplay types does not equal greatness. Amy's gameplay was just a boringly slow version of Sonic with obvious puzzles, Tails was a version of Sonic where you just skip over half the level, Knuckles was okay, Big was shit and Gamma was just ridiculously easy until the last level.

SA2 was fine, I have no problems with it.

But while Sonic Unleashed had only two gameplay types, at least they were polished and deep.

And the daytime stages are not all about speed. In fact I find the platforming more engaging than it ever was in SA1, because it doesn't sacrifice the speed for intricacy. If you just speed-speed-speed-booooost through the levels, as you put it, you die. Fast.

Edited March 21, 2010 by JezMM

[ArtFenix]

Amy's gameplay was just a boringly slow version of Sonic with obvious puzzles, Tails was a version of Sonic where you just skip over half the level, Knuckles was okay, Big was shit and Gamma was just ridiculously easy until the last level.

At least they were there while in unleashed we have nothing to review, nothing to compare. Just two. types. of. gameplay. Period.

at least they were polished and deep

O rly? I thought werehog's gameplay was boring as hell. And by the way, all types of gameplay in Sa were polished as well. I only agree with you about Big the cat. He WAS boring and dull.

[Diogenes]

At least they were there while in unleashed we have nothing to review, nothing to compare. Just two. types. of. gameplay. Period.

More=/=better. It's better to have one great gameplay style than several crappy ones. Hell, it's better to have one great than one great and several crappy.

And by the way, all types of gameplay in Sa were polished as well.

And this is just a blatant falsehood. Nothing in SA is polished to an acceptable level, not even Sonic's gameplay.

[azoo]

As close as Sonic's gameplay could've been in SA1, it sadly wasn't the most polished it could be, like Diogenes said. The Spin Dash was boost-like and accessible while mobile, physics were wonky and loops were scripted. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it was. The only reason I love it compared to others like Heroes, Shadow or Nextgen is because it was made in 1999, which was pretty decent for back then. It's not really for games that come out in 2004 or 2006; where they had more than enough time to fix these things but instead spent time on building upon the Adventure series' oh-so-beloved winding plots and diverse characters that all play majorly different.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Azukara

[eXtaticus]

I think that the main reason why Sonic Adventure is loved so much is not because it was "polished", but because it was FUN; despite the (minor) bugs and occasional programming flaws, the whole thing just gave me a thorough sense of elation throughout its entire duration - I loved it. If it hadn't been for Sonic Adventure, (and indeed, its nigh-on-perfect sequel) I simply wouldn't be interested in the Sonic franchise at all, and would have abandoned all hope for it years ago...

Sonic Adventure wasn't by any means perfect, but it was a damn site more enjoyable than virtually any game that succeeded it. I'm not asking for a glitchless slice of platforming heaven; I'm asking for a good time and a few laughs.

I'm sure that's not unreasonable!

[azoo]

Oh, don't get me wrong, SA1 was heaps of fun. The reason I complain about the games after it though is because they just decided they should take advantage of the fact that they don't have to improve, and just continue with more "great variety" in gameplay and the huge stories, thus causing less and less attention at the gameplay and suddenly the gameplay is worse than the former. That's why SA1 was fun, and SA2 (to me) wasn't.

[ArtFenix]

several crappy ones

Is Tails's gameplay is crappy? Is Knuckles's one crappy? Don't make me laugh! I see nothing crappy in there. People enjoyed those types of gameplay and a lot of them continue playing Sa (and Sa2) waaay more often than some modern games.

I'd put it that way: "It's better to have several great gameplay styles than one crappy and one "remember your road and only then you'll be able to enjou the game".

Your statements are no less blatant falsehood than mine. I have played Sa i don't know how many times, i still play it often and i don't see there anything so unpolish as you claim there to be. Sure, there were some glitches, but it was nothing, really. If there was something unpolished, it didn't bother me at all. And when i played Sa the first time, i wasn't afraid of running at a full speed because of something ahead i wouldn't be able to notice. Sa deaths were fair, SU deaths weren't. Simple.

Time and effort are the most important things to make a good game. After everything i've said, i agree that unleashed was quite finished product with a lot of effort putting in it and some idiotic economy in the person of the werehog.

[Rusty Spy]

Oh, don't get me wrong, SA1 was heaps of fun. The reason I complain about the games after it though is because they just decided they should take advantage of the fact that they don't have to improve, and just continue with more "great variety" in gameplay and the huge stories, thus causing less and less attention at the gameplay and suddenly the gameplay is worse than the former. That's why SA1 was fun, and SA2 (to me) wasn't.

Funnily enough, SA2 was the only game to really build upon Adventure's gameplay, and was much more solid.

Is Tails's gameplay is crappy? Is Knuckles's one crappy?

Tails' were too easy, and were just Sonic's level minus any challenge, and Knuckles' treasure hunting has always been tedious, especially in the later levels. The were better than most others in recent years but that's not saying much.

Your statements are no less blatant falsehood than mine [...] i still play it often and i don't see there anything so unpolish as you claim there to be

It's pretty obvious that SA1 was less polished just by looking at SA2, which had much tighter controls and physics, and didn't feel sloppy in it's structure and controls.

Sure, there were some glitches, but it was nothing, really. If there was something unpolished, it didn't bother me at all.

There were tons of glitches which directly shows lack of polish. They weren't gameplay affecting most of the time, but you can see that the game was less solid than it's successor.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Black Spy

[azoo]

I'm sorry, but Tails' gameplay (from SA2) was crappy and unenjoyable for my tastes. It took everything from Gamma's gameplay, and sloppily redid it halfway. It just didn't feel right. Probably because.. I don't know, it stuck with the general Sonic gameplay?

Just because Sonic's considered "the fastest thing alive" doesn't mean the programmers have the right to take everyone else and make them about everything but speed.

Funnily enough, SA2 was the only game to really build upon Adventure's gameplay, and was much more solid.

Sonic's gameplay did (rather loosely; I don't like that everything was all set to two buttons X_x)

They could've easily set it up like this:

A Button - Jump, Homing attack

B Button - Spin Dash, roll

X Button - somersault, bound attack

Y Button - Lightspeed dash

Edited March 21, 2010 by Azukara

[ArtFenix]

It's pretty obvious that SA1 was less polished just by looking at SA2, which had much tighter controls and physics, and didn't feel sloppy in it's structure and controls.

It's natural evolution of a game. You can't blame Sonic the hedgehog 1 for looking not so great as Sonic & Knuckles, can you?

Tails' were too easy

It was fun. Sonic games never have been too hard for me anyways.

I think that the main reason why Sonic Adventure is loved so much is not because it was "polished", but because it was FUN; despite the (minor) bugs and occasional programming flaws, the whole thing just gave me a thorough sense of elation throughout its entire duration - I loved it. If it hadn't been for Sonic Adventure, (and indeed, its nigh-on-perfect sequel) I simply wouldn't be interested in the Sonic franchise at all, and would have abandoned all hope for it years ago...

Sonic Adventure wasn't by any means perfect, but it was a damn site more enjoyable than virtually any game that succeeded it. I'm not asking for a glitchless slice of platforming heaven; I'm asking for a good time and a few laughs.

I'm sure that's not unreasonable!

I think i couldn't say that better. I don't care if there were tons of non-affecting-gameplay-glitches. Sa and Sa2 were awesome, i spent a lot of time with them and i spend a lot of time with them even now. I can't say anything like that about, for example, Sonic unleashed. I don't even touch nighttime levels anymore, i just sometimes play the daytime ones.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Whenever Sonic Adventure 2: Battle froze my Gamecube completely out of the blue after three hours or more of raising Chao and not saving, I died a little inside.

I unlocked Green Hill guys, and I still find SA2's random and often impossible to reproduce bugs unacceptable. This is especially bad because it's the sequel released two years later and it still has significant engine flaws.

(Yes, I realise that SA2 and SA2:B are not identical. You will notice I didn't mention SA1 as SA:DX was revised much more heavily than SA2:B was and so a comparison is much less fair. Especially as SA:DX was worse than SA1.)

[Diogenes]

Is Tails's gameplay is crappy? Is Knuckles's one crappy?

Yes. SA Tails isn't offensively bad, but it's incredibly poorly designed. You can fly over most of the level, making the "race" a complete joke. All it is is flying from point A to point B, then point C, etc. SA2's mechs are slow and clunky, completely unfitting for a Sonic game. Treasure hunting is slow paced and annoying, especially in SA2 where you can only track one piece at a time and where the levels end up being huge.

People enjoyed those types of gameplay

I've seen plenty of people complaining about them. They aren't universally reviled, but they sure aren't universally loved, either.

and a lot of them continue playing Sa (and Sa2) waaay more often than some modern games.

Do you honestly believe they're playing all the gameplay styles equally? I'd say 99% of the time spent beyond completing the story (and challenges, if the player chooses to do them) is playing as Sonic/Shadow.

Your statements are no less blatant falsehood than mine.

No. If you can't see how SA is unpolished, either you don't know what the word means or you're lying to yourself. This is not some nebulous quality where the game is sitting in a gray area, this is blatant and obvious.

If there was something unpolished, it didn't bother me at all.

No one cares if it "bothered" you. Your personal feelings on it are irrelevant; if it's there, it's there.

Sa deaths were fair

Except for when you fall through the floor because the collision detection is balls...

[SykoTech]

Bullshit. Sonic 06 was bad not because it was bad from the very beginning. The concept was great, there were tons of possibilities to be included in the final version of the game(Super Sonic, Metal Sonic, changing weather or time of day). The game was bad, because it was rushed and not finished, not because of the adventure formula, which is great and if you don't see that, you're either blind or just foolish. And if you are looking for a proof, go and play some awesome games which are Sa and Sa2.

Gonna have to completely disagree. Respectfully, of course.

I thought the concepts Sonic '06 used were horrible. Sonic Team recalled how well-received the Adventure games were back in their day (despite both of them having lots of issues). So decided to make another one, problems and all, without even attempting to address the flaws. Also, they decided to make Sonic, a character known for his cartoonish appeal, REAL. What's more, there's Silver, a character created to ride on the popularity of Sonic and Shadow, who's in the league of bad fanfiction (like the rest of the story). Then there's the generic "monster god", the "convuluted-while-trying-to-be-epic" plot, and the additional characters who are there for no other reason than being popular in the fanbase.

Aside from Shadow's spin-off, Sonic '06 had the worse concepts in Sonic's history IMO. And even if it was "finished", I don't think it would have been anything more than mediocrity.

As for the Adventure formula, it is inheritly flawed. It's basic structure is just making a few good levels that contain some semblance to the gameplay people expect from Sonic, and then applying filler that has nothing to do with Sonic (alternate gameplay, HUB missions, etc.) in order for the price tag to be justified. This might have been passable back in '98 when 3D gameplay was relatively new, but it's not something that Sonic Team should have stuck to without making some major adjustments. Unfortunately, that's pretty much what they did. Thus leaving them with a broken formula as a crutch.

For the record, I don't completely hate the Adventure games. I really like SA1 and Unleashed (it being an "Adventure" game is debatable I guess) despite their hefty flaws. And while SA2 was ultimately a disappointment, I got some fun out of it. But I shouldn't have to accept Sonic games being 2/3s meh like the Adventure formula sets them up to be. Sonic Team needs to start making Sonic more consistently good throughout the experience like other games out there, and the Adventure formula prevents that from happening.

And no, making us replay levels like in Heroes and Shadow isn't the solution either.

[Badnik Zero]

What is this argument about, Adventure style games?

I think I love everything that might be controversial about those games, the hub worlds, the treasure hunting... well not the mechs, but Gamma was faster than SA2's mech game and kept you on your toes with the timer gimmick. That timer was more central to the gameplay than you'd think it was, since it added a feeling of urgency to Gamma's game. What '06 was lacking was a hub that was interesting to stay in, levels that aren't generic green-fire-snow-desert levels, coherent adventure plot, and solid gameplay. It's broken on all aspects of the formula, probably because it's an unfinished game. Adventure style can still be the magic formula, but not even SA1 was able to do it perfectly. I'm cool with four or more gameplay modes as long as each one is a fully realized idea.

Anyways, I hope that's what they're planning instead of a team game. Are there any other action-platformer series that play off a team gimmick besides Sonic?

[Thirsty Pocket]

I loved the Adventure games, play them both more often than any of the others, would LOVE a SA3 ( as I won't except any of the games out now as a SA3 ). But come on man. Obvious flaws are obvious. The games aren't perfect. Don't kid yourself. There are gameplay effecting glitches, Some of the gameplay styles are big letdowns...

The point has gotten a little off track however. I think the Sonic Adventure formula is fantastic, but hubworld travel needs improvement, and secondary Characters just need a little love ( I think Knuckles would be fine actually, if he hadn't lost the ability to track multiple Emeralds )