Future Sonic Heroes and Mario & Sonic Titles confirmed?

[azoo]

Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 were rushed for the deadline (S3 so much that it was split in half). Look at how terribly unpolished they were. [/sarcasm]

[Rusty Spy]

It's natural evolution of a game. You can't blame Sonic the hedgehog 1 for looking not so great as Sonic & Knuckles, can you?

That argument fails because there's next to no difference between 1 and 3&K. The basic gameplay in Sonic 1 and 3&K fell pretty much identical and, if it weren't for the speed cap, lack of spin dash and graphical differences, you would be nearly unable to distinguish between the two solely based on gameplay. Sonic 1 was the least bit unpolished anyway, so how 3&K improved the gameplay is irrelevant since it doesn't deter from the quality of 1.

If you played SA2 and SA1, you could tell that SA2 had more solid controls and collision detection among other things.

I'm not blaming SA1 for being less polished because it wasn't as good as SA2, I'm saying that by looking at how SA2 improved the gameplay, it becomes more apparent how unpolished Adventure was, even for it's time.

[azoo]

SA2 improved gameplay for Sonic's stages. What they didn't improve was the level design, unless you call spamming dash panels and streamlining the stage to incredible linearity and GIANT LOOPS an improvement.

That and every action was set to one button, and that's no good. I got irritated when I wanted to roll and I did a somersault, or when I wanted a light dash but did a bound attack.

SA2 improved gameplay for Sonic's stages. What they didn't improve was the level design, unless you call spamming dash panels and streamlining the stage to incredible linearity and GIANT LOOPS an improvement.

That and every action was set to one button, and that's no good. I got irritated when I wanted to roll and I did a somersault, or when I wanted a light dash but did a bound attack.

[Phos]

I'm sorry, but Tails' gameplay (from SA2) was crappy and unenjoyable for my tastes. It took everything from Gamma's gameplay, and sloppily redid it halfway. It just didn't feel right. Probably because.. I don't know, it stuck with the general Sonic gameplay?

In SA, E-102 accelerated linearly in whatever direction you pushed the stick, whatever direction you pushed the stick, he would start trying to move in that direction right away. Shooting in SA2 uses completely different physics, the player seems to follow some kind of smooth curve that has them accelerating slower as they reach their top speed, and (Here's the important part) whenever they make a significant course correction, they do a canned stopping animation that is accompanied by a particular sound effect. This stopping animation makes shooting controls very clunky. What's funny about it is that I didn't notice the stopping animation until I started wondering what was making that sound effect. Also working against it: really dull and plain levels, we're talking a straight up hallway shooter here.

Sonic's gameplay did (rather loosely; I don't like that everything was all set to two buttons X_x)

This probably had something to do with Naka's desire to use fewer buttons than Mario. The idea was to keep it simpler to play than Mario, thus appealing to a wider audience. This kind of backfired here somehow, because it made the game much less intuitive. I blame the new selection of "Blue Key" powers, my name for powers that only exists to get past certain obstacles and have little use outside of these instances, a game with a lot of these could be considered to have a "wide and shallow" skill set.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

This probably had something to do with Naka's desire to use fewer buttons than Mario. The idea was to keep it simpler to play than Mario, thus appealing to a wider audience. This kind of backfired here somehow, because it made the game much less intuitive.

This was to compete with Mario 64 right (or was it Sunshine)? It's funny to see how much Mario did with very few button inputs himself where as you had to press a single button multiple times in order to complete a single action for Sonic.

Although, to be fair, the actions were a little more automatic in Sonic's case. If you were near a gate that required you to somersault under it you could just somersault, and you didn't always have to press the button several times just to do so. Not always, at least.

[ArtFenix]

Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 were rushed for the deadline (S3 so much that it was split in half). Look at how terribly unpolished they were. [/sarcasm]

I said "rushed AND unfinished", don't nitpick.

If you played SA2 and SA1, you could tell that SA2 had more solid controls and collision detection among other things.

Personally i like every similar to Sa2 type of gameplay in Sa more. There were some arguments about Gamma vs Tails gameplay and i find treasure hunting in Sa2 very boring due to the levels being huge. In Sa Knuckles's levels weren't that big and i cuold find all the pieces of the M.E. sooner than in any of Sa2 levels. And speaking of Sonic, i like Sa level design much more and spindash was a lot better in Sa than in Sa2. Sa2 only added some new abilities for Sonic.

You know, you say Sa isn't perfect. Allright, maybe. But if there was a game just like Sa but with modern graphics, CG and stuff and with the same level of quality, i'd definitely call it perfect, at least for my tastes.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

ArtFenix, you sound a little tense with the way people are responding to your disagreements.

What's up? Do you feel ganged up on or what?

[ArtFenix]

No, it's not like that.

I just don't understand the fact that the general opinion on this forum changes SO fast, that i'm beginning to think you guys aren't sure of what you actually like, what you consider to be the best 3D Sonic game. A couple of years ago there were so many posts about sonic heroes being so fucked up and now you are all SO happy of the possibility of the second game. Even earlier almost all of you were writing that Sa and As2 were the best game EVAR and now you're all arguing with me and saying they weren't even near perfect, so your arguments make me think you didn't enjoy them at all. What's up, people?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, it's not like that.

I just don't understand the fact that the general opinion on this forum changes SO fast, that i'm beginning to think you guys aren't sure of what you actually like, what you consider to be the best 3D Sonic game. A couple of years ago there were so many posts about sonic heroes being so fucked up and now you are all SO happy of the possibility of the second game. Even earlier almost all of you were writing that Sa and As2 were the best game EVAR and now you're all arguing with me and saying they weren't even near perfect, so your arguments make me think you didn't enjoy them at all. What's up, people?

Hey, welcome to the fanbase.

I think it's just that we expect a lot out of the series. I've only seen Tentomon say that SA1 and 2 weren't near perfect (I'm probably misunderstanding that as well), but everyone else just seems to point out the flaws in the games in that, although they were great games, they had some flaws in them that need some really drastic improvements. Same goes for any other game as well. The Adventures are among the best in the series, but you do have to be mindful that there are flaws that can really devastate the appeal. A lot of the aspects of the game that are praised are have those that are criticized in their execution, such as the treasure hunting in SA2, or Amy's stages in SA1.

It's probably moreso the concepts of each game that have people welcoming the idea of a second game. Heroes had a really interesting concept with the thought of having a team of characters move through a stage. Problem was that it's execution wasn't as up to par as the potential of the concept itself.

I'd say go with the flow, but really, I think the best advice would be to learn how to cope with how people can change their opinions quickly. So long as you can keep from getting too personal and too heated up over the shifting thoughts, it's not really something to get tensed up about.

Can you understand where I'm coming from with this?

[ArtFenix]

Yeah, i can.^^

I agree with you, but (maybe i'm wrong) it looks like it's kind of popular to only point out flaws and problems of a game.

It was popular to point out heroes' flaws

Then it was popular to point out Shadow's and riders' flaws

Now there's nothing to bash(we have bashed S06 sooo many times and many of you seem to like SU SO MUCH) and people pointing out Sa and Sa2 flaws. Now the plot isn't actually that great all of a sudden etc.

Maybe i really got tensed up about all this. Sorry for that).

Edited March 22, 2010 by ArtFenix

[Aquaslash]

Ok, I'd just like to say that Tails's gameplay in SA was AWESOME. In fact, he was Sonic with flying and Tails attack; you know, pretty much just like in Sonic 3. In fact, dare I say Tails in 3d hasn't been done as good or better since that game.

I can understand disliking Amy, Big, and to a lesser extent, Gamma and even Knuckles. However, as much as I give him grief for being the bane of my Sonic existence, I have to draw the line with Tails in SA1. Sonic and Tails were the best characters in the game. QED

[Badnik Zero]

^ I agree on the Tails gameplay, but I think the complaint is that he had the same exact levels as Sonic, with air boosters slapped in.

[Aquaslash]

^ I agree on the Tails gameplay, but I think the complaint is that he had the same exact levels as Sonic, with air boosters slapped in.

That's...an even stupider complaint! Or are we gonna complain that everyone plays the same zones in Sonic 2/3/*insert every other Sonic games except SA2 Here*

Wow, I guess we as a fanbase really are bipolar :|

*funny I should say that since I really AM bipolar but w/e*

[Diogenes]

Ok, I'd just like to say that Tails's gameplay in SA was AWESOME. In fact, he was Sonic with flying and Tails attack; you know, pretty much just like in Sonic 3.

Yeah, except here it completely breaks the levels. Some platforming obstacles? Screw that, fly over it. Enemies? Why bother with the tail attack when you can just fly past? Windy Valley? Oh, hey, let's never touch the ground at all.

In fact, dare I say Tails in 3d hasn't been done as good or better since that game.

Sonic and Tails were the best characters in the game.

Both true, but it doesn't change that he's broken as fuck and his gameplay is a joke as a result. Edited March 22, 2010 by Diogenes

[Aquaslash]

Yeah, except here it completely breaks the levels. Some platforming obstacles? Screw that, fly over it. Enemies? Why bother with the tail attack when you can just fly past? Windy Valley? Oh, hey, let's never touch the ground at all.

Both true, but it doesn't change that he's broken as fuck and his gameplay is a joke as a result.

Tails became broken the moment he was given the ability to fly. All the way back in '94. Only difference was you had to mash the button back then.

Don't even get me started on his original Super State.

[Diogenes]

Tails became broken the moment he was given the ability to fly. All the way back in '94. Only difference was you had to mash the button back then.

The two styles are on entirely different levels. Yeah, 2D Tails can fly past most platforming obstacles, but the size of the levels, the nature of 2D gameplay, and the strict flight timer means you're not going to be flying for long. It's also not always worth it, as there are plenty of areas where it's faster to stay on your feet than to fly. It makes Tails easy mode, but not any more than that.

SA Tails? What I said about Windy Valley:

And while Windy Valley's the worst,

and

aren't much better. The only ones that aren't broken as fuck are Casinopolis (because it's fully enclosed, rendering his flight almost useless) and Ice Cap (since it's all snowboarding). How you can even begin to compare skipping a few obstacles to flying over everything in the level is beyond me.

[Detective Shadzter]

Can't we all just appreciate the fact we all have different tastes, views and oppinions on each and every Sonic game in existance? Some love some Sonic games while others like other Sonic games, some like a certain gameplay style while some like other gameplay styles, some like Sonic's friends while others dont.

Can't we all just get along instead of complaining about eachothers tastes and making silly rows about how a group of fans were complaining about Heroes way back when while a current group of people are now wanting another Heroes game? I mean come on, really? Is that worth discussing?

I'm not trying to backseat mod but can't we all just get along and appreciate eachothers differing oppinions and tastes in the Sonic video game series?

[JezMM]

I'm on Diogenes side here. I like the Tails' gameplay, but if they want it to work in future he needs unique levels, with bounderies to stop him beating the levels so ridiculously easily (I now beat Windy Valley without touching the ground out of habit due to slowly realising I could through repeated plays in which I touched the ground less and less each time - this isn't even something you need to be obsessive to discover). The problem was not so much the gameplay, but that the levels were clearly designed for Sonic, not Tails.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Can't we all just appreciate the fact we all have different tastes, views and oppinions on each and every Sonic game in existance?

Sir, you're not from round here are you? By any chance are you looking for that village called Reality where people generally don't care enough to disrespect your opinions? I'm afraid you're currently standing in the foreboding city known as Internet, where if you disagree with anyone, you're a criminal, or even a blasphemer!

Would you like a local guide map? I can happily provide you with directions to the nearest flame shield store too. Good thing you're on the good side of town or else you'd really be in trouble!

---

I'm going to chime in here with that most hated of opinions: one that's on the fence!

Playing as Tails is generally designed as Easy Mode Sonic in S3&K, and that's also probably why they didn't retcon in Super Tails and only added it when they were forced to by the addition of the Super Emeralds to S3&K. Tails' ability to fly trivialises most obstacles in S3&K and also allows him to take shortcuts that are impossible for Sonic or Knuckles to take and he can recover from being knocked off cliffs more often than Knuckles as Knuckles is limited by needing to use a wall to gain height. Knuckles has three advantages over Tails but they're situational and don't show up often: very large scalable walls exceeding Tails' flight abilities, large stretches of unbroken sky to glide across as a shortcut and Knuckles' ability to break certain walls no-one else can. Otherwise, of all the characters Tails is the most manouverable and least likely to die suddenly. Tails isn't quite a game breaker but he's close.

In comparison, Tails in SA1 can dodge entire maps... if you know where to land for a split-second to recover your flight time, or if you can find a perfect descent path on the mainly vertical levels. Tails is hampered by bottomless pits as much as all the other characters, but more importantly he can't outrun Sonic in SA1, so he has to exploit his flying skill to clear stages. That's not broken. You could definitely make a case for terrible, poorly-thought-out design, but it's not broken to clear the stages as intended.

[Aquaslash]

*awesome*

Very well said sir. Indeed, Tails's whole gimmick is that he's forced to take advantage of the air, because he can't keep up with Sonic otherwise. (we'll just ignore Sonic 2)

[Diogenes]

In comparison, Tails in SA1 can dodge entire maps... if you know where to land for a split-second to recover your flight time, or if you can find a perfect descent path on the mainly vertical levels.

Even if you don't know the best route, you still don't need to do anything but fly from one foothold to the next. Nothing on the ground actually matters, nor does 99% of the ground itself.

Tails is hampered by bottomless pits as much as all the other characters,

What.

but more importantly he can't outrun Sonic in SA1,

I'm not sure about that. In terms of plain speed, maybe, but it's not as if the AI takes the most efficient route. Hell, if I'm remembering correctly, Sonic gets stuck on a wall at the start of Windy Valley...

so he has to exploit his flying skill to clear stages. That's not broken.

The extent to which you're able to exploit Tails' flight is what makes it broken. It doesn't balance out Tails' lower speed to make for a fair race or interesting gameplay; it turns it into a joke where the contents of the level are irrelevant and the only way the AI even approaches challenging is by warping forward if you're far enough ahead.

You could definitely make a case for terrible, poorly-thought-out design, but it's not broken to clear the stages as intended.

Bah, semantics. The original point was that Tails' gameplay sucks; whether it's "broken" or "terrible design", I do not care which.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

We're at the point where we're debating semantics already so I'm not going to continue this much farther but:

What.

...Yeah, fine, I botched that one. XD

However, he's not immune to bottomless pits, and if you run out of flight time over one he goes down the same way anyone else would. Tails isn't the only character that gets to exploit freefall at least once in the game, either, but he's easily the worst offender. (I'm not citing examples because I have instances of this phenomenon from SA2 and Heroes floating around my head and they're obviously irrelevant.)

I'm not sure about that. In terms of plain speed, maybe, but it's not as if the AI takes the most efficient route. Hell, if I'm remembering correctly, Sonic gets stuck on a wall at the start of Windy Valley...

I've not played SA:DX in years but I seem to recall this as well, but that's AI design not level design. If the AI took the optimal path through a level then a new player would never clear the level without exploiting flight anyway and flight abuse would still be the intended tactic - the only difference dumb AI makes is that the margin for error is higher.

The extent to which you're able to exploit Tails' flight is what makes it broken. It doesn't balance out Tails' lower speed to make for a fair race or interesting gameplay; it turns it into a joke where the contents of the level are irrelevant and the only way the AI even approaches challenging is by warping forward if you're far enough ahead.

Under almost any other circumstance I'd agree with you but because the exploitation is caused simply by being creative with the route you take to clear the level rather than explicitly using a game mechanic in an unintended way it can't be broken - just terrible level design. (Hah, semantics! - yes, you could also argue that players can use unintended thus broken routes through levels but to use that argument you have to prove that the route is unintended. Sonic's AI appears to employ rubber banding to not rush too far ahead but I recall the AI being able to get a very healthy lead on you if you suck hard enough so the banding is very lax. The fact that the AI tries to use its rubber banding to keep up in the videos you linked when it should never be necessary taking the obvious newb route through a level implies that they expected players to try and find shortcuts and compensated with Magical Teleporting Sonic. Ultimately this could only be cleared up for certain with Word of God and it doesn't really matter either way anyway because it's still damn stupid level design.)

Bah, semantics.

Isn't it fun coming to the same conclusion from completely different angles?

The original point was that Tails' gameplay sucks; whether it's "broken" or "terrible design", I do not care which.

For the record, something that is designed poorly can still be entertaining.

That Tails' flight skills trivialise levels that frustrated you as Sonic is precisely what makes his stages fun, though I never exploited routes to the extremes in those videos.

Of course, whether Revenge Easy-Mode Runs are fun or not is subjective. That the design violates basic design principles is not.

[Rusty Spy]

Under almost any other circumstance I'd agree with you but because the exploitation is caused simply by being creative with the route you take to clear the level rather than explicitly using a game mechanic in an unintended way it can't be broken - just terrible level design. (Hah, semantics! - yes, you could also argue that players can use unintended thus broken routes through levels but to use that argument you have to prove that the route is unintended.

The routes you can take with Tails completely destroy the competition and finish levels in record time. Windy Valley in particular was obviously not intended to be played by anyone who has some air abilities.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

The routes you can take with Tails completely destroy the competition and finish levels in record time. Windy Valley in particular was obviously not intended to be played by anyone who has some air abilities.

I'd accept that argument except that Windy Valley's course is part of Tails' standard playthrough in SA1 therefore he's clearly intended to run the level.

Yes, the routes you can take through the level make it look incredibly stupid and pointless but again, that's just crap design.

You can't actually prove that the route is not intended (although it definitely looks that way), but more importantly it's really not important to prove it except to distinguish between "broken" and "bad design". That the level bypass routes exist in the first place is proof of the latter regardless.

[The-Master-Board]

Frankly this confuses me, but if I get to see another Sonic Heroes

Mario & Sonic games can piss off though. I don't understand how they can consider Mario and Sonic games to be one of four main titles in the Sonic series?

Really, at best these games are just a collection of minigames (and crap ones at that) What I'm really trying to figure out is who's cashing in on who. Whether it's the olympics cashing in on Mario and Sonic's popularity with kids who don't give an arse about the olympics buying it, or Sonic and Mario cashing in on the olympics general audience and trying to make a few casual gamers out of them.

In any case I don't know where they can go with this apparent "series" besides the two olympics they've done already the only territory they can go into is crossovers - which I absolutely despise Sonic taking part in.

This really was an odd statement though. The way I see it Sonic is divided into segments such as follows:

- Main title A.K.A your classics, Adventures, '06 and Unleashed no I wont count that crap.

-Handhelds, ie; Advances, battle, Rush, Rivals

-Your spinoffs, Shadow, Riders

-Your stupidbook, uh, I mean storybook titles, which are shit

I didn't really think Sonic Heroes came under its own category...I thought it was just another Sonic game only with a team based aspect.

But still I am happy to hear this. If indeed they have plans for a Sonic Heroes 2 I will wet myself.....with awesome.

Sonic Heroes is by far my favourite Sonic game since the classics. It captures their whimsical and colourful otherwordly feel and was really really fun to play despite all the bad rep I hear it get. Also the return of Metal Sonic and the Chaotix!!!! the game has everything going for it and I would LOVE to see another...perhaps reviving a certain weasel character.