Future Sonic Heroes and Mario & Sonic Titles confirmed?

[The-Master-Board]

No way, Sonic Heroes felt overly kiddy. The classic series never had the sort of feeling Sonic Heroes gives off. Basic stories are fine but the story scenes in Sonic Heroes were complete shit.

Sonic Unleashed was overkiddy-like, Sonic Heroes was cheesy....sure the cutscenes were sorta cringeworthy, but I could put up with that for how good the games was, plus I'd rather have minimal story and a bit of cheese then let SEGA try and come up with huge epic plots (Shadow and '06 anyaone?)

The classics never had cheesy storyline like Heroes because the classics had about as much storyline as you could portray back then. I'm sure of SEGA got their hands on a remake of the classics they'd manage to crap it up.

I think Sonic Heroes was just fine - maybe a bit cheesy but due to there no being so much story we really didn't have too worry about seeing too much talking.

Edited April 14, 2010 by The-Master-Board

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think Sonic Heroes was just fine - maybe a bit cheesy but due to there no being so much story we really didn't have too worry about seeing too much talking.

Too much talking? The character's talked way too much in-game, but the real problem came more from, not how how much they talked, but because of how cheesy and somewhat obvious their dialogue was that is only made worse from the number of times they would repeat their lines in each stage. Almost like Sonic 06 with it's poorly done in-game dialogue.

But that problem existed more so with Team Sonic's dialogue. Surprisingly, Team Rose wasn't anywhere near as cheesy and they're the kiddiest team in the whole game.

And there was quite a story in that game, but it was fragmented and messy that whoever made it couldn't manage to tie events together in the game to lead up to the real event. Heck, S3&K did a much better job than Heroes could even attempt.

The game's plot could've fared much better in those areas if someone could polish out those areas where it was lacking. For example, there was nothing that explained Metal Sonic's revolt against Eggman that lead up to him becoming the monster he ended up becoming. And Eggman's "Hohoho, I have a superweapon, and I'm about to release it on the world in three days unless you stop me" message lacked any subtle villianious approach that he had in all the other games.

Heroes is severely lacking in the story area, and even the little parts of it don't do any better to save it there.

Edited April 14, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Remy]

And Eggman's "Hohoho, I have a superweapon, and I'm about to release it on the world in three days unless you stop me" message lacked any subtle villianious approach that he had in all the other games.

He didn't write it, metal sonic did!

[speedfreak]

Sonic Unleashed was overkiddy-like, Sonic Heroes was cheesy....sure the cutscenes were sorta cringeworthy, but I could put up with that for how good the games was, plus I'd rather have minimal story and a bit of cheese then let SEGA try and come up with huge epic plots (Shadow and '06 anyaone?)

The classics never had cheesy storyline like Heroes because the classics had about as much storyline as you could portray back then. I'm sure of SEGA got their hands on a remake of the classics they'd manage to crap it up.

I think Sonic Heroes was just fine - maybe a bit cheesy but due to there no being so much story we really didn't have too worry about seeing too much talking.

SU was nowhere near as bad as SH in the teddy bears & rainbows factor. While you might have been able to deal with it I could not. Especially not for "how good the game was" because I really didn't think it was very good at all. I'd rather have a minimal story without cheese (classic Sonic) than a vomit inducing cheese fest (Sonic Heroes) or a 06/Shadow type story. Or better yet go for the middle ground again with an Adventure/Unleashed type story.

[The-Master-Board]

Too much talking? The character's talked way too much in-game, but the real problem came more from, not how how much they talked, but because of how cheesy and somewhat obvious their dialogue was that is only made worse from the number of times they would repeat their lines in each stage. Almost like Sonic 06 with it's poorly done in-game dialogue.

But that problem existed more so with Team Sonic's dialogue. Surprisingly, Team Rose wasn't anywhere near as cheesy and they're the kiddiest team in the whole game.

And there was quite a story in that game, but it was fragmented and messy that whoever made it couldn't manage to tie events together in the game to lead up to the real event. Heck, S3&K did a much better job than Heroes could even attempt.

I would still take all of the cheesiness that came from Sonic Heroes then the crap attempt at comedy Sonic Unleashed had, or the blatant trying to be dark stuff Shadow had. I found the dialogue to be good, whilst I know it is a bit cringeworthy at times, so is practically ALL Sonic dialogue, singling out Heroes is like singling out only one particular icecube from the drink for being wet.

And I think talking too much in game is reasonable, afterall most of the time we only play as one character, and it would be kinda weird if they talked to themselves alot - but in Sonic Heroes you control a group of three, not just that, but three friends - it would be weird for them not to talk alot.

The game's plot could've fared much better in those areas if someone could polish out those areas where it was lacking. For example, there was nothing that explained Metal Sonic's revolt against Eggman that lead up to him becoming the monster he ended up becoming. And Eggman's "Hohoho, I have a superweapon, and I'm about to release it on the world in three days unless you stop me" message lacked any subtle villianious approach that he had in all the other games.

Heroes is severely lacking in the story area, and even the little parts of it don't do any better to save it there.

But this is called prologue, one in which you find out that this has happened as the twist at the end of the game. Why do you need to know this anyway? Storytelling can be told how the creator decides, and if he decides to leave out bits, whether that be because they are unimportant or because they want you to use your imagination instead, then that's how it is.

Sonic 1 didn't need to explain how Sonic first started to opposed Robotnik, nor did it need to delve into Robotnik's motives. Did the story lack because we didn't find out that a small woodland creature murdered Robobutts family so he decides to become evil and destroy all nature - or something like that? No, not really. Sonic Heroes story is what it is, a most basic of Stories, but it does so in a good and entertaining way - I say they keep this up if they are seriously considering a second in the series.

He didn't write it, metal sonic did!

Also This.

SU was nowhere near as bad as SH in the teddy bears & rainbows factor. While you might have been able to deal with it I could not. Especially not for "how good the game was" because I really didn't think it was very good at all. I'd rather have a minimal story without cheese (classic Sonic) than a vomit inducing cheese fest (Sonic Heroes) or a 06/Shadow type story. Or better yet go for the middle ground again with an Adventure/Unleashed type story.

Chip was The cheesiest character I've ever seen, SU was WAY worse for corny cheesy stuff then SH, people just rag on Sonic Heroes because of the "Super Power of Teamwork" thing. Heroes had good comedy, SU was just kiddy slapstick stuff.

Personally I play the classics or Sonic Heroes whenever new Sonic games get me in a down mood about the series, always helps put a smile back on my face.

Edited April 14, 2010 by The-Master-Board

[SoniClub]

Sonic 1 didn't need to explain how Sonic first started to opposed Robotnik, nor did it need to delve into Robotnik's motives. Did the story lack because we didn't find out that a small woodland creature murdered Robobutts family so he decides to become evil and destroy all nature - or something like that? No, not really.

I understand what you mean, I know how annoying it is when a game/programme/film spells everything out for you and leaves nothing to the imagination. It makes me feel stupid and ruins any suspence. But you have to include the fact that Sonic 1 didn't really have any sort of story unless you read the manual. This was how it was when cutscenes weren't used that much and so they didn't really show anything. I guess now that we have CG scenes people just naturally expect most things to be shown, and I can see why to be honest. When you look at the quality of Sonic games' cutscenes and stories it's damn confuesing enough without trying to get us to figure it out. =O

[Nepenthe]

I would still take all of the cheesiness that came from Sonic Heroes then the crap attempt at comedy Sonic Unleashed had, or the blatant trying to be dark stuff Shadow had. I found the dialogue to be good, whilst I know it is a bit cringeworthy at times, so is practically ALL Sonic dialogue, singling out Heroes is like singling out only one particular icecube from the drink for being wet.

He's not singling Heroes out when he admits at least one other game has bad dialogue. Regardless, despite most if not all modern Sonic games having cheese, the amount of it does vary from game to game, and the fact that most people will say that Heroes is the worst offender of the lot is telling.

And I think talking too much in game is reasonable, afterall most of the time we only play as one character, and it would be kinda weird if they talked to themselves alot - but in Sonic Heroes you control a group of three, not just that, but three friends - it would be weird for them not to talk alot.

You make a good point. However, I believe this type of in-game dialogue can only be pulled off if it's not too frequent and isn't badly acted. Unfortunately, it's almost as if Heroes deliberately set out to achieve the exact opposite.

Sonic 1 didn't need to explain how Sonic first started to opposed Robotnik, nor did it need to delve into Robotnik's motives. Did the story lack because we didn't find out that a small woodland creature murdered Robobutts family so he decides to become evil and destroy all nature - or something like that? No, not really. Sonic Heroes story is what it is, a most basic of Stories, but it does so in a good and entertaining way - I say they keep this up if they are seriously considering a second in the series.

Comparing Sonic 1 and Heroes' plot is a false equivalency. There are no dangling questions about the characters' first meeting or motives presented in the story, thus the fact that we don't know this information is irrelevant and serves no impact on the plot.

However, Heroes hints at Metal's coup half-way into the story in the cutscene with the downed Eggman robot, directly raising the oh-so significant questions, "Why is Metal suddenly sentient?" and "Why does he want to destroy everything?" that are sadly never answered. The plot is further inconsistent in the fact that it is dead-set on ramming a teamwork message down the audience's throats but doesn't have enough sense to detail reasonable purpose to the teams' fights with one another, especially Teams Sonic and Dark as they blatantly admit they're going after the same guy.

Sonic 1's plot is simple. Sonic Heroes' plot is lazy.

Heroes had good comedy, SU was just kiddy slapstick stuff.

Heroes did not have good comedy; It is completely unmemorable. Also, slapstick is not kiddy. xP

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I found the dialogue to be good, whilst I know it is a bit cringeworthy at times, so is practically ALL Sonic dialogue, singling out Heroes is like singling out only one particular icecube from the drink for being wet.

Saying that all Sonic dialogue is cheesy is a big exaggeration. There have been good moments and bad moments in Sonic dialogue, but Team Sonic's dialogue in Heroes is one of the worst. I'm not saying Heroes is the only one guilty of it, ShTH does the same thing on the othere end of the spectrum, but that still doesn't mean Heroes is without it's flaws.

And I think talking too much in game is reasonable, afterall most of the time we only play as one character, and it would be kinda weird if they talked to themselves alot - but in Sonic Heroes you control a group of three, not just that, but three friends - it would be weird for them not to talk alot.

It makes sense, but the cheesy dialogue on Team Sonic's part would've done better without the cheese in it.

But this is called prologue, one in which you find out that this has happened as the twist at the end of the game. Why do you need to know this anyway? Storytelling can be told how the creator decides, and if he decides to leave out bits, whether that be because they are unimportant or because they want you to use your imagination instead, then that's how it is.

I'm fine with twists and turns, but knowing why Metal betrayed Eggman would make it more understanding on the whole point in betraying him in the first place. Without that small bit, why betray the Doctor instead of working with him? That's poor storytelling. There needs to be some cause for betrayal, and simply wanting to defeat Sonic doesn't require any betrayal when the person Metal betrayed in the first place has the exact same goals himself that he programmed into Metal's system to accomplish. And that is very important so that you can understand the character's motives more clearly. Him wanting to destroy Sonic the whole time made sense; him betraying his creator in his attempt to do so, but with no reason mentioned to shed any light on it made absolutely no sense. It's not as much fun to use your imagination when you don't have a solid direction as to what lead to those events. Metal obeyed the one function he was programmed with: to destroy Sonic. But what made him disobey the other which was to obey his creator and imprison him rather than use him? You don't even need to guess that those two functions are what Eggman built into his programming, considering that all the other robots perform them as well.

Using my imagination is one thing, but it not good to leave out a reason for betraying someone and say use your imagination. That something I find lazy. Even the simplest stories can do better than that. Sonic Advance 3 shows that Gmerl seemed to suffer from a malfunction in his system somehow leading him to attack Eggman, knock the emeralds from Sonic's grasp to power up, and have Eggman and Sonic team up to stop him from going any more rampant. Now from there, you can use your imagination as to what cause the malfunction, either the number of trouncings he got from fighting Sonic and the crew or the exposure to the Chaos Emeralds Sonic had nearby him, or because Eggman messed something up while creating him. But even so, you know the reason as to why he did what he did: he had some form of malfunction (evidenced by the electricity discharging from his body).

Sonic 1 didn't need to explain how Sonic first started to opposed Robotnik, nor did it need to delve into Robotnik's motives. Did the story lack because we didn't find out that a small woodland creature murdered Robobutts family so he decides to become evil and destroy all nature - or something like that? No, not really. Sonic Heroes story is what it is, a most basic of Stories, but it does so in a good and entertaining way - I say they keep this up if they are seriously considering a second in the series.

No sir. You can't even use Sonic 1 to compare this. You'd have had a better shot with S3&K than Sonic 1, although that wouldn't have stopped the coming points I'm about to bring up

During the time of the Classics, stories were nothing more than "Stop the villian" and bordered on being non-existent. We knew about the hero from the begining as well as the villian, and all we generally needed to do was to just stop Eggman. There was no information outside of of the game booklet that came with it as to what was going on, but it isn't anything worth marking down for its story.

Heroes, however, was clearly more than that. It was about a robotic henchman betraying his master just to get back at defeating a rival foe he was programmed to destroy since Sonic CD, and luring several other characters on a goose chase around the world to use their data to become stronger than his rival and accomplish that feat. There was more complexity to Heroes than you could even point a finger at for Sonic 1, even with the simple direction it was taking.

He didn't write it, metal sonic did!

My mistake. But it could've still been subtler than that. That's not exactly a good way to set up a scheme, atleast for Sonic games.

Edited April 14, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The-Master-Board]

*Wall of text*

Sorry, couldn't be bothered replying to it all in proper form

I kinda see your point now with the Metal Sonic usurping, I suppose a bit more info would've been nice, though personally I never questioned it - which is quite weird as I usually question everything, like the Blaze/Silver/Nega/parralel universe/future paradox which keeps me up alot....but uh....lost my train of thought...

However, through all the cheesy dialogue, and all the other bad things people say about Sonic Heroes, it is still truly one of my favourite Sonic games, my number one 3D Sonic game and even close to the classics for me.

Perhaps it's just the style, afterall I'm a sucker for anything that looks like what I percieve as being Sonic's world (ie: fantasy-like checkers and colourful backgrounds like the classics and SH, and most definitely NOT like Unleashed) though also it might be because of the large roster, as I'm also a sucker for huuuge casts - like Smash Bros.

Whatever it is, no matter what people say, SH will always be awesome for me!

[Agent York]

He didn't write it, metal sonic did!

The funny part is I can imagine Metal Sonic in a dark office sitting there writing a letter as Eggman and trying his best to impersonate him. To be fair, he didn't do a half bad job and in essence the whole story of Sonic Heroes was Metal Sonic just collecting combat data on everyone and waiting for everyone to come to the flagship so he could prove he is the real Sonic...

OK, that is a serious plot hole. Why the hell is Metal Sonic trying to prove he's the real Sonic by turning into a fucking dragon, I mean come on SEGA, Metal can't be so deluded that he thinks by turning into a giant robot dragon named, "Metal Overlord" that shoots Crystals from it's chest, fire from it's hands, and can pick up battle ships with it's bare hands proves him as being the real Sonic.

[Badnik Zero]

My big issue with the Heroes plot is how the final encounter is built up and never pays off. Metal goes through all this trouble and you go through all the levels to get to him. I wonder what Metal Sonic is gonna be like, this is gonna be awesome! Then there's no evil speech or gloating... he just overthrew his master of however many years to become the star villain here. All we get is a few lines? No explanation. And then he transforms. Can I call this terrible thing Metal Sonic?

[The-Master-Board]

My big issue with the Heroes plot is how the final encounter is built up and never pays off. Metal goes through all this trouble and you go through all the levels to get to him. I wonder what Metal Sonic is gonna be like, this is gonna be awesome! Then there's no evil speech or gloating... he just overthrew his master of however many years to become the star villain here. All we get is a few lines? No explanation. And then he transforms. Can I call this terrible thing Metal Sonic?

You have to remember that Sonic Team were (and still are) in the mindset of making Epic monster of the week battles as the final boss to be the norm, so it really isn't that out of place to see Metal Sonic transformed into some huge thing rather than the final fight with him that everybody wanted.

To be fair, as much as I hate the monster of the week archtype, I actually like Metal overlord, it kinda ties the loose ends of the story into a nice little bow, like why would Metal Sonic bother luring Cream and Big into the mix - because of the DNA data left in chao's and froggy from Chaos, hence why we get a massive dragon-like entity but with mutated mechanics instead.

My only gripes with the ending would be that you didn't get to fight Metal Sonic (or Neo metal Sonic as he's apparently known) in his upgraded form (neo metal) before you got to fight metal overlord, that and the fact the whole of Team Sonic ddn't transform at the end.

Edited April 15, 2010 by The-Master-Board

[Silver*]

I'd go with another Sonic Heroes... but with interchangeable teams please. And Silver of course.

[FamilyGAMEGuy8]

I'd love a new Sonic Heroes just as long as it has 3 player co-op. It would be awesome (Although I'm not quite sure how Flight would work) and more teams please

[Agent York]

OK, Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors are Sonic-Only titles and we just got a Mario & Sonic title before this was announced. Could the 20th anniversary game be the new Sonic Heroes-style game?

To note with time to think about this I think they don't mean the game will be exactly like Sonic Heroes but that Sonic and his friends will be playable with some dynamic or focus. Just as we near the releases of Sonic Colors and Sonic 4 I am fairly sure this mentioned but not-seen "Sonic Heroes Styled" title is going to be Sonic's 20th anniversary game. That and possibly Sonic the Hedgehog 4 episode 2. To be honest I would like a 20th anniversary game with other characters playable. In fact I don't think we've really had anything like that in a while. Sonic Next-Gen was the closest thing we had before this but that was executed horribly and I don't think should be tallied since I don't mean to sound like a blind fanboy but SEGA in this last year have seemed way smarter than the SEGA of 4-5 years ago. But before Next-Gen we haven't really had a title like this since Sonic Heroes, or Adventure 2 & 1. Sonic & the Black Knight kinda' was but that wasn't really traditional in any sense and I count it as something entirely different since it's a storybook title.

Just I predict deep in SEGA's offices they are working on the 20th anniversary Sonic game but waiting for Colors and 4 Episode 1 (and Free Riders) to release before announcing. In fact I predict this title to be announced in December-March range and will release towards the end of 2011 or beginning of 2012. There may also be another title besides this and Sonic 4 to surprise us since the series often works in threes, but I don't think I could estimate that... A new Mario & Sonic game perhaps going by this? If so I hope it's not Olympics or mini-game collections... It would be interesting to see an actual more deep game be made with them. I would not be against a Mario & Sonic Party though.

Just some random thoughts. I am almost 100% this 20th anniversary game is going to be this unseen Sonic Heroes styled title, unless they are doing that, Sonic 4, AND a new Sonic Solo title unseen or some other unexpected surprise.

[Chaosmaster8753]

How long does SEGA's deal w/the International Olympic Commitee last?

[The-Master-Board]

Just some random thoughts. I am almost 100% this 20th anniversary game is going to be this unseen Sonic Heroes styled title, unless they are doing that, Sonic 4, AND a new Sonic Solo title unseen or some other unexpected surprise.

O I hope you are right!

I LOVE Sonic Heroes, it is still my favourite 3D Sonic game and I regard it as being on parr with the awesomeness of the classics. The style I think is perfect for the setting of Sonic games, fantastical and colourful and whimsical, plus I love huge intertwining cast stories.

I really think they hit the sweet spot with Heroes, unfortunately they didn't keep it and strayed to some pretty poor game styles after it.

I do hope the "big" 2011 20th anniversary game does turn out to be a Sonic Heroes-esque game. I'd love to see a big cast of playable characters and fun level design again.

[blackherox]

How long does SEGA's deal w/the International Olympic Commitee last?

I assume that Sega/Nintendo purchuse the license, whilist the Olympic committee overseas that the games are properly represented. Given, that London 2012 is just around the corner and that the M@S games have generaly sold quite well in Europe (especially in the UK), I expect either a Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games 2 or some form of re promoting the existing game. I'd go with the former though.

[Sajotae]

I would like to see another Sonic Heroes styled game for the Sonic franchise. I actually quite enjoyed that game.

And, like FamilyGAMEGuy8 said, it would be interesting to see them implement some type of co-op game-play with the teams. Perhaps make it optional for the single-player campaign and then have some type of co-op multiplayer game-play?

Either way, it would be nice to see. But if SEGA doesn't, then I'm just as interested in seeing what else they have in store for Sonic besides Sonic Colors and Sonic 4: Episode 1.

[Shade Vortex]

At PAX one of the Sega PRs told me "Oh god, I hope not." when I asked if if Sonic Team would make a Heroes 2. I asked him this because of this topic.

So from what he told me after that, I can say they don't like Heroes internally. (He was actually a developer of Sonic 4, too) Though I will say he did mention that team-based mechanics might be featured in some way in future games, but he doubted a Heroes 2 would ever be made.

[Nepenthe]

Whilst I'm not on board with Heroes 2 myself, are you sure this isn't a case of an opinion belonging to an employee and not the entire company, or did he actually go into detail about how the game is widely perceived within? I'm just curious.

[Kaoz]

Have to say I liked the game play of Heroes and wouldn't mind seeing a sequel, so long as you don't have to play through the same levels as each team, at least have levels unique to the individual teams.

[Shade Vortex]

Whilst I'm not on board with Heroes 2 myself, are you sure this isn't a case of an opinion belonging to an employee and not the entire company, or did he actually go into detail about how the game is widely perceived within? I'm just curious.

To be exact, he told me that Sonic Team wasn't planning to do it and didn't want to. But that could still be him bsing so that people wouldn't ask him about Heroes 2. I also asked him about if there'd be another Vectorman and if there'd be a Nights 3 and he also said Sega wasn't planning either of those.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Shade Vortex

[NM Mighty]

Mighty Ray and Bean as a team

It would be cool if it was like Marvel Ultimate Alliance where you could make your own team and specific teams get specific endings

Like

Sonic Ray Mighty

Sonic Tails Knuckles

Espio Charmy Mighty

You get my point lol

Also secret team?

Metal Sonic

Metal Knuckles

TAILS DOLL

I'd fangasm

[The-Master-Board]

At PAX one of the Sega PRs told me "Oh god, I hope not." when I asked if if Sonic Team would make a Heroes 2. I asked him this because of this topic.

So from what he told me after that, I can say they don't like Heroes internally. (He was actually a developer of Sonic 4, too) Though I will say he did mention that team-based mechanics might be featured in some way in future games, but he doubted a Heroes 2 would ever be made.

Wait he thinks Sonic Heroes is shit and he's on the development team of Sonic 4!?!? Talk about being a hypocrite!

All I can say is the future doesn't look bright for Sonic if there are idiots like this guy in charge. Sonic Heroes has been my shinning star in an otherwise sky of shit as far as most 3D Sonic games have gone - Sonic 4 looks terrible so I dunno why this guy can be so smug.