Playing in the Sandbox.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There's probably another topic from this, but I want to tackle this from a different angle.

After playing games like GTA, Prototype, Crackdown, Spiderman: Web of Shadows, Assassin's Creed and such, the idea of Sonic running around doing whatever he wanted seems like the greatest idea that could be applied to Sonic. Of course, I'm not the only guy here who has thought about Sonic being in a sandbox styled game.

However, there's a certain problem I see with relating a Sonic game to other games like those mentioned above. Their environments aren't exactly something that would work for Sonic. Each of their settings are cities arranged in what I would call a "Box and Wall" layout. The buildings are the boxes, and walls are...well walls. If there's one thing that makes one of the biggest differences in a Sonic game, it's level design. Let's use Sonic 3 & Knuckles as an example. It is by far one of the greatest Sonic games of all time. It has level design that, when you get used to it, you know exactly where you are in the level.

But when it comes to level design, there are some iconic features that you won't find a Sonic game to be without. Loops, slopes, curves, springs, and such. While slopes and curves will likely be present regardless of the game, features such as loops would seem useless if you could just walk around them. A few ideas I had in mind to fix that would be to have a boss battle take place on a giant tube that functions in a similar way to a loop, or instead of loops, you replace them with spheres, or if that wouldn't work you could make the loops larger. There are lots of ideas you could throw around. Springs will depend on how much air the character can achieve wether they're jumping or flying.

Another thing is making more than one environment that is different from each other. Sonic isn't made to work on just one single environment. He's been through it all. Cities, space, underwater, volcano, skies, forest, military base, alien base, prairie, you name it. It wouldn't exactly be ideal of Sonic was in just a city or any of the other places for the whole game.

Then there's the mission based gameplay that makes up the usual sandbox game. Sonic games have been more or less getting from point A to B, while sandboxes are usually those that go from point A to B and then C, or you could skip C in favor of D, while substituting B for E. They involving a lot more thinking than simply getting through the stage. Then there's Sonic and his speed. Each sandbox game has a certain gimmick of the character that allows them to traverse the stage they're given: Spiderman has his web-slinging abilities that allow him to go anywhere he wants, Alex Mercer has his parkour to get from top to bottom and all through the city, the Agents are able to jump from building to building, while Ezio and Altair use their parkour as a means to get on top of buildings and attempt assassinations. So likewise, one would have to design the stages so that Sonic could use his speed.

So how exactly would one design a sandbox game while keeping in mind multiple level designs and features mentioned above?

Edited March 21, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

I think rather than put Sonic in a sandbox environment, give Sonic sandbox abilities, mainly parkour. Spacing out the levels to give them more horizontal and vertical depth for Sonic to move around in, but keep most of the levels on a point A to B bases.

The parkour would aid Sonic in moving through levels quickly and smoothly during linear levels, while they aid him in making his way around a given environment in non-linear levels.

One of the things that makes a Sonic game a Sonic game is it's linearity being a tool to emphasize the speed factor of the game.

When you put Sonic in a non-linear environment, you either:

-have an environment too small for Sonic to have much opportunity to take full advantage of his speed,

-have an environment large enough to take advantage of speed, but too big for just a single level with a few missions, thus fun is spread too thin,

-have an environment big enough to base an entire game around, leaving little to no room for linear styled levels, as well as lack of variety in themes.

Non-linear levels, even in the classic games(or levels with less length, more depth in those cases), have always have a bigger emphasis on platforming and are never the speedy levels. Translate that into 3D and you have linear levels ala most of his 3D games, or more sandbox type levels with less length and more to move around.

The main aspect that blends the two extreme styles is creativity in the way the levels are laid out.

[azoo]

I considered a full-fledged open Sonic game at one point, but it fell flat on it's face for the same reasons already mentioned. It was cause the lack of direction and motivation in the gameplay. Now, that doesn't mean they can't make stages with an obvious setup of "go from point A to point B" and still set it up as a land of using the world as your playground and toying with speed and physics, and having tons of branching paths. That's what the Genesis/Mega Drive games did, so why can't they do that now?

I do encourage parkour though, to some extent. Not exactly the bit where Sonic can run anywhere (this would definitely be a problem with him since he's so naturally fast), but I agree with ideas like wall-jumping, vaulting and ledge grabbing.

[Thirsty Pocket]

Make it like Zelda.

Open world with a lotta stuff to explore, Enemies to fight, Towns, and NPCs, but you access "Dungeons" which work much like the action stages we are used to.

[Diogenes]

I honestly think sandbox-style would be terrible as the basis for an entire Sonic game. As much as people complain about modern games being too linear and the classics having multiple paths, the classics were absolutely nothing like an open-world game. There are many paths, but they're all still designed to take you from the start, to the end, not to let you roam in any direction you choose. They're multilinear, not nonlinear.

If sandbox-style has any place in Sonic games, it's the hub worlds and hub worlds only. The very concept is designed to allow the players to wander and find their own way, so it might be worth expanding them into full sandbox areas rather than tiny areas with a few NPCs and the level entrances. Add in some missions (ideally optional but worth doing), some other secrets, and plenty of playground-sort of design to mess around with, and it could make for a nice diversion from the main game.

As for the actual design...I think they'd really have to make a proper physics engine to make it work. No scripted loops, no twitchy movement while running on walls, etc etc. That stuff shouldn't be in the main levels either, of course, but it's even worse when you're supposed to be able to approach at almost any angle instead of just straight on. Once that's down, they've got to build environments to use it; I agree that the basic blocky city can't possibly work for Sonic (it'd be helped if they let you transfer from 0-degree ground to 90-degree walls, but that might not feel properly Sonicy and it wouldn't solve everything). It needs more angles, plenty of curves, and probably more vertical layers than a typical city.

[Nepenthe]

I've always thought that if one wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the Sonic sandbox idea, it would probably be best if one expanded on and significantly streamlined the Adventure or Unleashed progression style wherein hubs are large playground areas which could seamlessly lead into action stages. Action stages would, ideally, lead directly back out to hubs again after they're successfully completed. And ultimately, different areas or countries or what-have-you would also be connected to one another.

I don't find it necessary to try and force all Sonic osbtacle tropes upon the sandbox environment though, specifically loops and spirals. In a true 3D environment, you would probably have to end up forcing the player to take them by narrowing their sense of control and direction near the obstacle. And if that's the case, there's no real reason to put them there, and it's probably why there's a distinct lack of the things in existing hubs already.

[Rusty Spy]

I've always thought that if one wanted to have their cake and eat it too with the Sonic sandbox idea, it would probably be best if one expanded on and significantly streamlined the Adventure or Unleashed progression style wherein hubs are large playground areas which could seamlessly lead into action stages. Action stages would, ideally, lead directly back out to hubs again after they're successfully completed. And ultimately, different areas or countries or what-have-you would also be connected to one another.

That's something that always struck me as odd about hubs in Sonic games. So once you run 50 miles down Speed Highway you just turn around and come back the way you came?

[Phos]

Hmmm...

A serise of apparently seperate linear levels that have passages between them opened during the story. They still wouldn't end up being a typical sandbox.

[Badnik Zero]

I think Sonic works best with a large but still limited environment. One of the rumor topics is going on about Adventure games... I think something like that with more space and options is the way Sonic needs to go. All games will have objective. One of the first things you need to know about a game is what to do. So I don't think taking Sonic's focus off of his main objectives helps him much. At least not the way a sandbox game does it. Sandbox games have objectives too, but can be very linear if you stick to the core story, like in GTA. Go to the point on the map, kill this and do this, get reward, lather rinse repeat. What they did to fill in their world is add so many secondary objectives that the player is overwhelmed by possibilities. Steal any car, mess around with the cops, do taxi missions, find hidden missions, sidequests, collect 100 of these and get a crazy unlockable. It's in the options rather than the world, I think. As people get used to these games the novelty of gigantic worlds will wear off, because a big place can still be boring, just like we found out better graphics don't equal fun this gen, and 3D games can still be total crap fourteen years ago. Options. People liked the different ways around a level in the classics, which is something that doesn't exist today. They say exploration, but it's not that they just want to walk around and find things. It's being able to say "I wonder what's up there?" and then go there. It's options to take the high or low road. That kind of thing makes a game better, because it gives players more control over how they play. So yeah, how about a larger closed world where the players choose which approach they want to take? Like an expanded Sonic Adventure, more secrets and ways around levels. Stuff gamers like.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[azoo]

In other words, like the layout of Red Mountain's first half in SA1, except with a similar layout of that for every level? If that's what you mean, then fully agreed. Well, maybe minus the bottomless pits.

[Diogenes]

That's something that always struck me as odd about hubs in Sonic games. So once you run 50 miles down Speed Highway you just turn around and come back the way you came?

To be fair, Speed Highway does end at a separate place than where it begins. You enter from the building near the train station and end up where you fight Chaos 0.

Actually a lot of them in SA sort of make sense...if the character is looking for something within the level rather than just passing through (say, Sonic and Tails looking for an emerald, and everything Big, Knuckles, and Gamma do), it's not unreasonable that they'd go back the way they came after they find it. Some of them do end in different areas, like Sonic's Speed Highway and Red Mountain (transitions into Sky Chase 2), and Amy's Hot Shelter (drops you off in the pool room, if I remember correctly). Some of them are logically both the entrance and exit, like Casinopolis and Twinkle Park.

I wonder how much thought they put into that.

[Blacklightning]

Before Prototype came out, I always imagined that Crackdown would've been a good basis for a Sonic-esque sandbox game. Obviously that's less so nowadays, but it does prove a few valuable points when it comes to this sort of thing. The first of which being, well, the method of exploration. Jumping from building to building rarely ever felt like a chore, if anything it was a neat, simple little pleasure in itself (well, as long as you aren't getting shot at CONSTANTLY while moving around). The world was a playground, and if you felt like it you could simply abandon the main missions entirely in favour of simply jumping around the place. If there's one thing a Sonic sandbox could learn from this example, it's that even the very traversal of the sandbox itself should be fun in its own right. Obviously Crackdown agents and technicolour anthropomorphs use very different means of getting around, but all the same there should be an element of fun getting from place to place - simply replace "ledgegrab platforming" and "building-to-building hops" with physics abuse and a bit of character-specific exploiting and it should still work out alright. Incidentally, the thought of traversing a sandbox high in the sky with a flying Tails or Knuckles is pretty awesome too.

Of course, it helps that the sandboxes actually have some sort of incentive for exploration. Crackdown had this in the form of agility orbs and more elusive hidden ones, so on top of the simple pleasure of jumping around the place you had the simple reward of levelling up your skills (primarily agility) in the process. Even if it's just scattering rings all over the place, Sonic should at least have some excuse to forget about the monster of the week and simply run aimlessly around the place if the player feels like it.

The other thing is, as mentioned, the way the missions themselves are laid out. While the missions themselves took place in areas within the sandbox instead of completely seperate stages, the stages had a similar "multi-linear" approach to what Sonic stages usually go for. The mission was almost universally to hunt down and kill a high-ranking gang member in the area, be it an apartment complex, a skyscraper or even an oil rig - but besides choosing your point of entry (in rare circumstances it's possible to cheat and skip a majority of the complex by entering from areas you weren't supposed to reach), there's a clearly defined point between start and finish, and while there are often multiple ways to reach your target, you always have a clear sense of direction as to which way you're meant to go, and alternate routes rarely feel like sandboxes in themselves so much as simply another way to tackle the mission.

So yeah, Crackdown. Play it if you haven't already, it's surprisingly relevant to a number of design choices a Sonic sandbox would need to make.

[Badnik Zero]

In other words, like the layout of Red Mountain's first half in SA1, except with a similar layout of that for every level? If that's what you mean, then fully agreed. Well, maybe minus the bottomless pits.

Yeah, that's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. But larger than that too, maybe a level with multiple exit points, even changing the order you play the levels. Not to the extent Shadow did its objectives though, because it would come full circle eventually. I think options expressed in level design is a good thing. Gimmicks in old games came along with the levels, it's a very Sonic thing to do. You don't even need to play with his moveset either. On the opposite end of this is Secret Rings, which had an extended equippable moveset, but completely on-rails levels. But I'm kinda off topic here so I'll pimp my actual open world idea...

This is like the fourth time I'm bringing this up, so sorry to anyone who thinks it sucks. But what about using a globe? Kind of like Mario 64's levels where you have multiple objectives. But each level is a globe that wraps around on itself, and is very open like a mini-sandbox. Your objective is made clear by the story, and if it's not obvious you go to find it. It would have a hub world feel, but be interactive like a level, with enemies and all that. But like Mario 64, you can just mess around in the level if you want, since it feels like an overworld. You could find secrets and hidden objectives in each level if you didn't go straight for the goal. This is also key to a sandbox. The action happens in the main world - there's nothing that divides the game into sections, no level entrances, and no "temples". The reason I think a globe would be nice is because Sonic's always limited by his 3D surroundings. You can build a very large level, but eventually Sonic will run into walls that box him in. A round world gives him freedom to constantly move while still being contained. Stick as many objectives (aka acts) in different corners of the globe as you can, put some secrets in between, and slap a boss on the end. You'd have a relatively open and involved level, while keeping exploration and freedom available.

[Rusty Spy]

^ I can't see how that's something you can't just do with a normal plain other than the whole limited space thing, but Sonic shouldn't and isn't one who is an exception to what every other major platformer does. If you want to give him the freedom to move indefinitely, give Sonic abilities that allow him to traverse normal levels smoothly and easily until you reach the goal.

If you wanna stick Sonic on a globe, hack Super Mario Galaxy to play 3x as fast, half shut your eyes and pretend your playing as Sonic while listening to the soundtrack of SA1.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Black Spy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If sandbox-style has any place in Sonic games, it's the hub worlds and hub worlds only. The very concept is designed to allow the players to wander and find their own way, so it might be worth expanding them into full sandbox areas rather than tiny areas with a few NPCs and the level entrances. Add in some missions (ideally optional but worth doing), some other secrets, and plenty of playground-sort of design to mess around with, and it could make for a nice diversion from the main game.

That's kind of what I was thinking in terms of levels for Sonic in a sandbox-style game. Crackdown is a good example for having sections of a city split off into different territories that have different distinctions from each other:

• Shai-gen territory was a neat metropolis with museums, skyscrapers, laboratories, and a shopping districts
  
• The Volks section was an average city with oil rigs, power plants, mines, and weapons depots
  
• Los Muertos area was a bit run down and poor with amusement parks, beaches, and I remember a mansion area for the kingpin in that area
  
• and the Agency was centered in-between the other three areas and was the tallest structure in the game
  

For Sonic, you could have:

• a forest where you could race along the tree branches or swing across the vines
  
• a military base where you could take advantage of every mechanical object by riding on top of vehicles to get around
  
• a city where you could hop around the rooftops (although I really want to avoid the "box and wall" layout you find in most of the other sandboxes
  
• a volcano cavern where the further you go towards the volcano the more lava you will come across
  
• an air-base that uses the technology for a variety of actions you could mess around with, and could double as a transportation center for all the other hub areas
  
• a polar region that you can snowboard on and also contains water hazards
  
• a beach that...I'm not sure what the gimmick of this would be. A stage start I guess?
  

Heck, I bet you could use the Floating Island for most of these areas and it can function as a single large hubworld that doubles as the levels.

I think SA1 and Sonic 06 to an extent accomplished that much, although SA1 was more compacted, and Sonic 06 didn't have anything to encourage exploration.

Edited March 22, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

^ I can't see how that's something you can't just do with a normal plain other than the whole limited space thing, but Sonic shouldn't and isn't one who is an exception to what every other major platformer does. If you want to give him the freedom to move indefinitely, give Sonic abilities that allow him to traverse normal levels smoothly and easily until you reach the goal.

Well it's not just freedom in how he moves. I don't really have an issue with his moveset even if I think parkour could be cool on him. Doesn't he already reach the end of levels pretty smoothly? It's more about his environment, the space in which he moves and different ways he can get there. On a globe you can go to one corner of the world and not have to backtrack. For me the environment is more free if it's continuous, and I couldn't think of any other way to do that besides sticking him on a globe. It's not like Mario Galaxy because gravity isn't the main gimmick here. Galaxy was more like moons Mario satellites around and jumps between. I'm just thinking endless area to run. And what do you mean by other major platformers? I wouldn't choose another character to use an idea like this.

[azoo]

I think Nextgen wasn't so much of not encouraging you to explore as it was not encouraging you to do anything. With terrible broken gameplay and random dash panels as it's band-aid patches, why would you wanna explore or do anything for that matter?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think Nextgen wasn't so much of not encouraging you to explore as it was not encouraging you to do anything. With terrible broken gameplay and random dash panels as it's band-aid patches, why would you wanna explore or do anything for that matter?

Even if the gameplay wasn't broken and it was still the same with little content whatsoever, you wouldn't want to explore anything. It lacked anything that drove you to explore the hub worlds.

My idea has always been to have a HUGE overworld (think GTA SA with forests and cities) that look photo-realistic, but then have portals to "zones" like classic Sonic.

I think a better idea for that would be to have the huge overworld be divided into levels themselves, or Zones if you want to be nostalgic. It would seem balanced enough if you have this really big playground to use, yet you have these smaller zones that either aren't as engaging as the overworld or the other way around.

It could be classic in the sense that you don't need all these portals and such just to get to the level, as you can just go from one level to the next. At the same time it would be new in the sense that you know how each level section of the overworld is connected to each other, and you can find means to tranfer from different locations on your own time.

If you wanted to reach Hydrocity while your in Lava Reef, you could look for the tunnel that bridges the two. Or if you wanted to get to the Egg Carrier in the sky, just hijack a flying enemy that has the strength to get you there and fly into the sky.

...I think I'm going to have fun experimenting with this idea.

Edited March 22, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[azoo]

@CSS: I just imagined like this little way to get to the last level (like a space base for Eggman); where there's a docking bay in the ocean you're at, and you suddenly find a secret area where all these badniks aren't headed towards you, but running in a certain direction. You follow their movement to find them packing up in a ship being driven by the Egg Robo that carries the badnik cargo to Eggman's base. In the mean time, you sneak in with them, only to go through a trial of battling hordes of enemies at a time while you're flying into space and you destroy the cockpit (with Egg Robo in it) upon exiting the ship when getting to the base because he won't let you (or the animals you freed) out. Then suddenly you skipped four Zones and have already made it to the final Zone.

Wow, I had alot of fun thinking that up. Lol

As for the actual stages in Nextgen, I think the level design was fine, but they used it in all the wrong ways. Kingdom Valley was really the only stage in Nextgen that would've been fantastic with a better engine and less/no dash panels. White Acropolis, Dusty Desert and Crisis City had great opportunity to be something great, but they didn't put enough there. White Acropolis couldve had tons of interactivity and fun level gimmicks, but instead it was not taken advantage of and just had "put random enemies here, put switch here, put grind rail here". Crisis City would've been great to run around in, but over 75% of it was dash panels and autopilot; which was really disappointing since the large scripted scenes (like that time he ran around the buildings?) would've been great to leap from and run around on by your own whim. And Dusty Desert would've been epic fun if they would've made it where everything wasn't quicksand around you and would've allowed you to endlessly roam the desert. Maybe the best would've been if the sand did make you sink but you had to keep enough momentum that you wouldn't sink? But another thing that would've made the gamplay for the stages better would've been to take all of Shadow's areas he specifically went in and put them in Sonic's levels. More opportunities of alternate routes and ground to (optionally) cover is never a bad thing.

..but I'm getting off-topic. ^^;

[Rusty Spy]

On a globe you can go to one corner of the world and not have to backtrack.

If you were going for a completely non-linear progression, backtracking should be the last thing Sonic should have to worry about, given he can cover so much distance in no time flat, whether it's the same area or not is a bit of a non issue.

For me the environment is more free if it's continuous, and I couldn't think of any other way to do that besides sticking him on a globe.

I still don't get how a normal overworld isn't just as free. If the problem is backtracking, there are much better methods to getting around, i.e teleporters.

I think a better idea for that would be to have the huge overworld be divided into levels themselves, or Zones if you want to be nostalgic. It would seem balanced enough if you have this really big playground to use, yet you have these smaller zones that either aren't as engaging as the overworld or the other way around.

It could be classic in the sense that you don't need all these portals and such just to get to the level, as you can just go from one level to the next. At the same time it would be new in the sense that you know how each level section of the overworld is connected to each other, and you can find means to tranfer from different locations on your own time.

If you wanted to reach Hydrocity while your in Lava Reef, you could look for the tunnel that bridges the two. Or if you wanted to get to the Egg Carrier in the sky, just hijack a flying enemy that has the strength to get you there and fly into the sky.

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what your proposing.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Black Spy

[Badnik Zero]

If you were going for a completely non-linear progression, backtracking should be the last thing Sonic should have to worry about, given he can cover so much distance in no time flat, whether it's the same area or not is a bit of a non issue.

But sandbox objectives are still very linear, they just provide enough distractions on the way. Drawing a straight line to the objective point will get you there fastest, like the sword-beam in Shadow of the Colossus. Despite being so large, that game was very linear if you didn't think to look around. And while there were secrets in that game, they were few enough to discourage exploration on your own. There was also a lot of backtracking in Colossus. I just think a circular world would be interesting and provide more connecting points. It hasn't been done with Sonic. And anyways teleporters aren't as cool. ShtH's teleporters weren't elegant at all.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

@CSS: I just imagined like this little way to get to the last level (like a space base for Eggman); where there's a docking bay in the ocean you're at, and you suddenly find a secret area where all these badniks aren't headed towards you, but running in a certain direction. You follow their movement to find them packing up in a ship being driven by the Egg Robo that carries the badnik cargo to Eggman's base. In the mean time, you sneak in with them, only to go through a trial of battling hordes of enemies at a time while you're flying into space and you destroy the cockpit (with Egg Robo in it) upon exiting the ship when getting to the base because he won't let you (or the animals you freed) out. Then suddenly you skipped four Zones and have already made it to the final Zone.

A good idea, but the to allow the player to skip four Zones to get to the final one makes the structure seems way too loose.

There should be some rigidity so that the player doesn't abuse the layout too much so that he could get from start to end in the cheapest way possible. Certain sections of the overworld would be traversable after certain points in the game, and after you've unlocked access all the Zones, you can skip around the level to do any mission to your liking. The final part of the game, should remain the final part. It wouldn't exactly be much of a final Zone if you could skip all the other Zones before it.

If it's possible, two different missions can coincide with each other to allow some flow to the game.

For example, the current mission you were performing involved destroying Eggman's base. There will be flying enemies that you can take advantage of to get through the stage without as much hassle as you would on the ground, but beware of anti-air weapons that are made to hinder that very same advantage. So while you're trying to destroy the base, let's say that you wanted to get some extra air to add to your stealthiness in approaching the base on the aerial enemy you just hijacked. In the process of doing so, you encounter a large air base in your flight trajectory, and so you have to destroy that as well. You use the weapons on the flying enemy you're on, and start firing at the engines while also guiding missiles to help aid in the destruction. You destroy the air base, which comes crashing down and destroys a large portion of the ground base, which would make destroying the whole base much easier than it would if you did it one at a time.

That sounds like a good idea itself, although how this would work is the biggest challenge in executing it.

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what your proposing.

I wouldn't call it a proposal anymore than just an idea off the top of my head.

Let's use the Floating Island. It has:

• Mushroom Hill
  
• Flying Battery
  
• Ice Cap
  
• Angel Island
  
• Hydrocity
  
• and so on.
  

In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the layout is more linear in how you progress from Zone to Zone. After you complete Angel Island, you go to Hydrocity, and then Marble Garden, etc. Instead of that, you can go from Angel Island all the way to Mushroom Hill if there is a path that connects the levels, or you could go from Hydrocity to Lava Reef without always having to going through other zone just to get there. And if you wanted to reach the Flying Battery Zone, you could find a flying enemy and use it to travel there in the skies.

Each of these double as hubworlds and Zones, rather than use SA1's method in having 3 main hub adventure zone that contain portals or paths to the action zones. That's what I was thinking.

Edited March 22, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic