Are we getting too picky?

[DistantJ]

So, not wishing to cause any kind of argument, just an observation and perhaps something to think about...

I was just reading the Gamesradar Q&A and the questions (and even some of the responses) seemed so trivial to the point that people would be highly disappointed by the game if it was for the smallest of details... "I just couldn't handle it if Sonic 4 has 'meh' boss music", "Eggman it is. Boo and, indeed, hiss", "I, along with others ( I hope), was pissed when I saw the animation" Do any of these actually affect the quality of this game?

It is strange, as the last time I was on this board we were essentially saying "I hope the Werehog doesn't suck", and when it came out half of us enjoyed the Werehog and the other half hoped for a game which was the same but without the Werehog. I don't remember any of us being annoyed that power-ups weren't in boxes/screens or that we didn't jump on a capsule to free animals after a boss. It seems, now that we get what we want, rather than being pleased, we're getting precise in what we want, some of us swearing we'll be furious if it isn't for the smallest of details...

It's a nostalgic downloadable title, not the next Adventure/Heroes/Unleashed title. It's a little present for us long-term fans while the kiddies and those of us who have enjoyed the good 3D games (I still say that only Shadow and '06 were really actually bad) can still carry on that series too as it takes it's baby-steps closer to greatness, one failed gimmick at a time. What people need to face is that this is going to be faster than Sonic 1-3 and it is more than likely going to be more linear and less complicated. It's likely to have more than a little resemblance to the Advance/Rush series (which all received good reviews and have a good number of fans anyway) as Sonic has gotten faster and as a result some level design alterations need to be made (though I will be happier to see less bottomless pits coming from the very top of the level and less leaps-of-faith).

Would an extra character really ruin the game? There can be good characters who don't have to return for every single game. Remember how Shadow was actually cool once, and then died? Remember when Knuckles was a new character?

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? I remember before Sonic Adventure came out, people with Sonic websites always referred to Robotnik as Eggman and never used the word 'Mobius' because they thought it was cool to follow the Japanese 'origins' for whatever reason (though Robotnik technically came first, by a month or two), yet now that they've switched to sync up with the Japanese 'canon' we want the other one back. Was anybody pissed that New Super Mario Bros. Wii didn't call Bowser 'King Koopa'?

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? When there are plenty of levels to go through, is it a huge problem if we don't find a huge number of different ways around the levels? Apparently there are multi-routes in this one anyway but my point still stands, and we can't keep acting like the original levels were like some kind of epic labyrinth of endlessness, for the most part there were just one or two different options which would re-join anyway.

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? If Sonic 4 had come out on the SEGA Saturn or Mega Drive (just, say, the late 90s), I could almost guarantee you it'd have had a new character, would have been faster, and would have added some new moves, ideas or gimmicks. I don't like this notion that just because the 3D ones have gone a bit tits up that they can't add anything at all or try anything new... Do you remember when we just wanted a Sonic Adventure game which didn't involve emerald hunting? I remember when I just wanted Sonic Heroes with the characters forced to shut their mouthes during the levels, haha.

Now I don't mind speculating, ya know, a bit of "wouldn't it be nice if they included this", I just think it's a pity that a lot of us seem to be going more along the lines of "I'm gonna be pissed if they don't include this", and it's a shame really, because we're just going to give them the idea that they can't win with us old skool fans, so why bother to try and please us? This topic starter personally really likes 3D Sonic when it works (the Adventure games) moreso than 2D, and dreams of a game like Sonic Unleashed without (or with less of) the Werehog (I love the Werehog, just, like with SA2, I want more Sonic!!), but I'm pleased that Sonic 4 is coming out and am anticipating a great time from it.

So do you think we're being too picky, or is it entirely justified? I'd like to hear what you think.

Edited March 27, 2010 by DistantJ

[Rusty Spy]

Picky? AND HOW!

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? When there are plenty of levels to go through, is it a huge problem if we don't find a huge number of different ways around the levels? Apparently there are multi-routes in this one anyway but my point still stands, and we can't keep acting like the original levels were like some kind of epic labyrinth of endlessness, for the most part there were just one or two different options which would re-join anyway.

Well, yeah, it's like if Super Mario 64 was a corridor platformer, or if Mega Man could only use the Mega Buster. Sonic's levels used to be pretty expansive and had quite a lot of depth. Taking that away is like taking away the spin dash and momentum; it's an important part of his gameplay.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Black Spy

[Badnik Zero]

It's likely to have more than a little resemblance to the Advance/Rush series...

I think it's better for fans not to expect perfection, because it's not gonna happen. But for your point - why call it Sonic 4. For the hype?

Would an extra character really ruin the game? They absolutely wouldn't. Most everyone's comfortable with doing Sonic in Ep1 and getting guys like Tails in Ep2 or 3. It's a pretty fanbase safe move by Sega, and it might even follow the classic adding one character per game thing.

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? No. Anyone who thinks so is either too invested in SatAM or something, or has no love for modern Sonic. The latter however is most of the people who rally for 2D only games. I think those old games were better, but 2D only is kind of... extreme.

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? I'd say it depends, right? It's true that classic games weren't mazes of discovery and wonderment, just look at Sonic CD. Quartz Quadrant and Wacky Workbench are pretty much just giant rooms with chunks of terrain and platforms about. Those levels are extremely open, with usually just a top and bottom path you can alternate between. But it's really important to have those options - a level is less alive if it amounts to just a hallway - go straight. That's boring. It's not really about finding new areas as it's about just having freedom to choose how you get around.

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? I'm not against innovation. But I feel if they're acting like this is a sequel to a much beloved series, they've gotta draw primarily on that. I haven't played the thing, so maybe that's the plan. When this was announced though, I was thinking they'd strike out in some new direction, like how each classic built upon the last. The influence of the SA games is obvious in the homing attack, and I wouldn't have a problem with that if this wasn't a retro-minded title. I'm really waiting to see what new things they've got planned post-Unleashed. But if this game was gonna borrow from anything, the Adventure games wasn't the place to look. Maybe something new, inspired by what came before it!

Yeah, I feel the tone of your post though. The game is gonna be what it is. I don't want to tear it down before I give it a fair chance. By the way, welcome back.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[Solid SOAP]

Yes, people on some other Sonic forums are starting to complain about the fact that Sonic's eyelids are blue, not peach like his skin. That's even worse than the green eyes complaints. Jesus Christ.

[SefHighwind]

Would an extra character really ruin the game? No, I really don't think that a extra character could ruin the game. I mean to be honest I was a bit disappointed with Tails being absent in episode 1, but then I realized that they're trying to take it easy with the characters. I'd agree with Cupcake, the idea to possibly do one character per episode is a smart move on Sega's part.

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? No, I still don't know why people are still arguing over this. Yes, he was called Robotnik all the way up to Sonic Adventure when Sega decided to switch back to the Japanese cannon. Ya it was a bit disorienting at first with the name change, but I got used to it in a first couple of hours. However, it really is just a name to me, and as long as the character has the same attributes, I couldn't care less if he's Eggman or Robotnik.

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? That's a bit of a hard one because I really believe that all of the Sonic levels in the genesis were a mix of leaner and non leaner. I will say that it might bug me a bit because I loved the fact that the levels that were non leaner were a blast because I loved finding different ways to the goal. But then again once we find routes that we like, then doesn't the level become leaner?

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? This is a subject that I really don't know what to say. The only thing that I do have to say is that I can understand why they placed the Homing Attack in the game. They wanted to appeal the game to the new fans of the series. Dose it mean that we have to use it? No, I do believe that it is an optional attack. However, if the homing attack is well executed (like Megamix) then I feel like it might add to the speed of the game.

[Candescence]

Picky? Good grief, quite a lot of people are.

Would an extra character really ruin the game? Well, Sonic only is kinda a step backwards from Sonic 3&K, so, hell no. Of course, that's if they don't take the retarded route of changing the gameplay entirely for just one fucking character. How many times has this happened since Sonic Adventure? I've lost count. You don't go arbitarilly changing the genre in the middle of the game, that's just terrible game design.

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? Oh, hell no, anyone who actually cares should just get over it. I learned about the name 'Eggman' through the Sonic CD PC demo's help file, and thought it was an appropriate and neat name. Of course, I was still far more exposed to 'Robotnik' through the games and AOSTH. Now they have both, and when I found this out, I thought "huh, so they gave him his Japanese name? Neat." And I never really gave a damn.

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? Well, yes, actually. Are at least three paths that span the entire level and intertwine with each other too much to ask? Seriously.

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? Well, depends on the quality of the additions, tis all. Unfortuately, I believe the Homing Attack is fundamentally broken beyond repair.

While I have been rather harsh on Sonic 4 (okay, that's an understatement, I've been dumping on it since the first footage at every opportunity if I could be bothered), but at least I try to focus on the stuff that actually matters and also make sure my criticisms are perfectly valid.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[Drunk Michael Myers]

"We" are not picky, but a lot of people are whining about the smallest things from Sonic 4, and that's just sad. The only complaint i have so far, is the homing attack. I don't understand why the choosed to have it in the game, probably to make the levels as cheap or easy to design as possible instead of throwing in some clever platforming for those perfect jumps you had to do back in the days.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Michael Myers

[Chooch]

Picky? Picky? Picky is an understatement! Hahahaha.

A lot of these nutcases associated with the Sonic fandom seem to throw temper tantrums like goddamn three-year-olds because of a single, tiny, insignificant thing doesn't fit their perfect little mold. Act like like the games are supposed to be specifically made with them in mind. It's sad, frustrating, and downright hilarious all at the same time.

[goku262002]

Yes, people on some other Sonic forums are starting to complain about the fact that Sonic's eyelids are blue, not peach like his skin. That's even worse than the green eyes complaints. Jesus Christ.

Lulretro. I was just suspended from there after making a comment about the eyelid thing after chimpo said not to. Like hell i'm ever posting in that sonic 4 topic again.

Yes we are being picky to the extreme. People just got to stop all this nitpicking and wait for the game to be released.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think there's any real dispute about the titular question, but the use of post-Dreamcast elements is an interesting tangent. I think Sonic 4's in the slightly unique position of being released in an time where even the more traditional 2D games, the ones that the layman and even the critic won't hesitate to call "classic", have evolved away from the originals in some notable manner. And I think that, as a sequel, this episode and the others won't do harm to draw inspiration and mechanics from an era that is indeed just as valid as the pre-Adventure one; It makes sense, whether or not said inspiration doesn't render this game as exactly like the originals in every single aspect. Its standing in the timeline dictates that it doesn't need to be.

[Phos]

Suddenly criticizing a game with glaringly low production values, bland levels, and rather dire physics is picky?

[Nepenthe]

Because those green eyes and long legs were never a point of contention with you or some other people... ever?

[GameboyHero]

Suddenly criticizing a game with glaringly low production values, bland levels, and rather dire physics is picky?

This coming from the guy who was complaining about the Life icon before.

Out of the 4 in the OP, the multiple route one is really the more important. The rest are just preference and really have no lasting impact on a game. Why multiple route is due to how you can finish a level. The older games showed it off well, Sonic 4 should at least offer up 2 or more routes at best.

[SykoTech]

Yes, people on some other Sonic forums are starting to complain about the fact that Sonic's eyelids are blue, not peach like his skin.

Yeesh. Things like this make that joke editorial on Destructoid completely valid.

Anyways, pickiness is the main reason I've become pretty distant from the Sonic fanbase. I've got as many complaints about the way Sega's been handling the franchise as the next guy, and I'm not lovin' every single detail of Sonic 4 either (let's jusy that I've said the word 'rehash' a couple of times). But when nearly every conversation turns into some close-minded debate about the smallest details in the classic games, it makes me feel petty to even bother with it.

Hopefully, when (well if, but I'm an optimist) Sega gets the franchise's overall quality back on track, the whining over all the insignificant things will cease.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Tentomon

[Badnik Zero]

And I think that, as a sequel, this episode and the others won't do harm to draw inspiration and mechanics from an era that is indeed just as valid as the pre-Adventure one; It makes sense, whether or not said inspiration doesn't render this game as exactly like the originals in every single aspect.

I get this, and I kinda feel that way too. But in a way they're breaking their own fourth wall of retro before they put it up. I guess that's what separates Sonic 4 from other retro titles. Mega Man 9 wanted us to feel like we were in the '90s again, but Sonic 4 is saying "Hey you're in the '90s, but remember it's still 2010".

Edited March 27, 2010 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[Teoleulbogo]

Would an extra character really ruin the game? That depends entirely on the character. If the character is implemented in a satisfactory way then I'd say no, and I would definently enjoy if they brought in Tails or Knuckles in episode 2.

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? No, NO, and NOOOO! I still can't believe that some fans make such a big deal out of something so trivial as the name of the villain. I'll admit that Robotnik does sound a bit more menacing than Eggman, but aside from a few easter-egg type mentions Eggman will probobly stay being called Eggman for the rest of the series.

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? Yes to an extent. I believe that if designed corectly, a more linear "Hallway" type level, as I'v heard some people call it, can be made just as fun as a multi-route one. However Multi-route levels are great because they give the player the sense that he is on his own quest with his own choice in which way to go, making every experience a little different. I for one would probobly prefer more multi-route levels than "Hallway" levels in S4

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? That's actualy kinda hard to answer. Sonic4 main attraction is the fact that it will be going back to the basics, so part of me thinks that it would only make sense to use only things from the pre-Adventure era. However another part of me thinks that just using elements from the original games would lead to a few points where I would feel the game to be getting a little to repetetive and stale. Similer to New Super Mario Bros. I think S4 should use certain elements from the modern games and even add some fresh new things to the table.

And to answer the original question of the topic, YES the Sonic fan-base is probobly the most pickey and anoying fan-bases I know of. I'm not saying that every Sonic fan is like this, I'm saying too many Sonic fans are like this. The reason is because these fans are angry at Sonic for ever making bad games, as if the thought of their all mighty hero producing anything thats not up to standards is blasphemy. So they nit-pick every little detail not because they hate the game itself but because they hate Sonic for ever letting them down. All I have to say to them is to get over it. In the course of any game series there is bound to be a few bad games, so if your favorite series has a period of low caliber games you shouldn't take it as some sort of sign that Sonic has "betrayed" you, and enacting some sort of hateful vendette against the series. The best thing you can do is accept this truth and hope the next game meets your standards.

[Eternal EX]

To answer the topic, HELL YES! I mean Damn "sonic has green eyes in a classic styled game" WTF? That crap right there almost made me turn away from being a sonic fan. "This game is too shiny" "where's tails?" "Sega isnt using eggman's classic look" "I WANT SONIC IN HIS OWN GAME BY HIMSELF" DAMN!

[Phos]

Yes, people on some other Sonic forums are starting to complain about the fact that Sonic's eyelids are blue, not peach like his skin. That's even worse than the green eyes complaints. Jesus Christ.

Actually, Phoebius made a somewhat facetious post about it and then several other people started trying to figure out what the precedent was. The only out and out negative posts I saw was Phoebius's ironic bitching and posts like these:

So now you're bitching about/discussing his eyelid colour? Fuck this thread, I'm out.

But the bit about eyelids is interesting because it means that Sonic is probably real time 3D.

Because those green eyes and long legs were never a point of contention with you or some other people... ever?

I complained about the eyes, but the color is not chief among my complaints with them.

This coming from the guy who was complaining about the Life icon before.

Oh, wait, this thread is about something different than I thought it was. Actually, a lot of things about the new design wouldn't be so bad if this game hadn't been made with an orthographic view, that goes for any version of Sonic. This hits New sonic harder though, because the cone shape of his body becomes visible and his quills are all going off in their own directions, and his legs basically become line segments.

But anyway, a (really long) while back I revised my position on his eyes, the green isn't chief among my complaints with them. I also only brought up the life icon in response to the assertion that you never see his eyes in game. Sonic 4 is also the game that taught me to hate certain aspects of the new design.

[LATER BUDDY]

I do think it's pretty funny when people go ape shit over Eggman instead of Robotnik, especially the fact that they never even use dialogue in the older games, XD. Seriously, if the review for Sonic 4 at IGN says something along the lines of "it's a pretty solid game, but we wish they'd call him Robotnik instead," I'm going to lol.

-Blur

[Nepenthe]

I complained about the eyes, but the color is not chief among my complaints with them.

That...doesn't really answer my question. And subsequently, it circumvents the subject of select fans complaining about insignificant elements of the game and how you were among that crowd; It circumvents it for miles.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

DistantJ, long time no see man! I never thought you would actually come back.

Anywho, I'd say just certain sections of the fandom are becoming picky. We've never complained about trivial things such as green eye color over the black eyed one as much as we did, or Sonic's more streamlined atheltic look over his chubby, non-atheltic, and "cute" look.

Back then, it was silly drama over characters, humans, and 3D along with the whole Classic vs. Modern war RAEG. It kinda silly seeing how low we've gotten, and are becoming so picky at the most minute of details that people end up looking for to bitch for the sake of bitching. Only on the internet.

Would an extra character really ruin the game? Not really, if it's going to be optional like they were in the Classics. And complaining about optional content is NOT COOL! Seriously tho, if a character such as Shadow or Big were in the game, there would be no stopping the senseless bitchfest that would come at the sight of him. The fact that two moderately popular characters that they don't like would be seen just seems to be ammo for these guys.

Does Dr. Eggman's name really matter? If you wanna keep making me laugh by complaining or picking at the name, I guess it does. I guess simply calling him Robotnik is like rocket science to those who prefer the name. It's just so hard for them to take two seconds to call him what they prefer that it is so much easier to write a paragraph (or more) on how his name should be Robotnik.

Does it matter that much if there's only one route? I actually find this legitimate. I love exploration in Sonic games, so I would love for there to be more than one route. That's kind of my problem with Unleashed. I find it a good game, don't get me wrong, but it was too restrained and felt more like running through a hall than running through a city, or plains, or forest. Eggmanland actually had multiple routes, but that didn't stop it from being Ninja Gaiden hard on your ass, and not as fun to boot.

Do we need to be confined to only things which were invented before the Dreamcast? You honestly don't see Mario or any video game character for that matter being confined to how he was before they were around for a certain era, so why should Sonic? Of course, that's no excuse to go jumping off the cliff with ideas that are pulled directly out of a hat like the Werehog or to go cashing in on what is considered "cool" and "mature", but that doesn't mean don't be innovative and not expand ideas out further than what they were. People who complain about things moving on usually don't understand that very well, or they go along with it until they decide to be flip-flops and say it sucks. They say to become innovative, and when you do a poor job at it, they say don't be innovative, and when you do that the whole thing repeats. A lot of folks don't realize that it's not exactly the idea at fault (although it can be inappropriate, if ShTH's guns and tone were to say anything) rather than the execution.

But honestly, if people want to get picky about things, I say let them. That only opens them up for folks to be picky right back at them. If you're going to say something about something in particular, you'd better be prepared for someone to come and say something against what you said, am I right?

[Phos]

That...doesn't really answer my question. And subsequently, it circumvents the subject of select fans complaining about insignificant elements of the game and how you were among that crowd; It circumvents it for miles.

I might direct your attention to this:

Oh, wait, this thread is about something different than I thought it was.

The formatting of my post didn't really show it (sorry about that), but this was actually directed at your quote as well.

[DistantJ]

Nice replies, everybody. I can't really appreciate Phos' posts since we've seen 2 seconds of footage of this game, but otherwise good stuff!

So I've noticed the main elements which are bothering the less-picky ones amongst us are the homing attack and multi-route level layouts. I'm gonna address them...

With the homing attack or just adding post-Dreamcast elements to the game, I'd just like to compare it to New Super Mario Bros. a lot of things from 3D Mario actually aided 2D Mario gameplay as well, such as triple-jumps, wall kicks and the pound attack, and I can't see a few 'new Sonic' elements harming Sonic 4. The homing attack I am lead to assume is due to the game being faster than the previous ones. I mean does anybody else have trouble in Sonic Rush or the Advance series when you just don't see the enemies coming? With the homing attack you can aim straight at something without having to slow down and break your flow. They had a sort of semi-homing attack in Advance 2, didn't they? I can't remember if it helped or not though a lot of that game was a bit too straightforward to begin with (in particular that 2nd zone, where you went for drawn-out periods of time just holding right), but it could work in a less linear game and even add some interesting elements to it. But if you ask me I reckon it's just to do with being faster now than before, and making sure you can keep up and aim your jump, I think it's nice to be able to target a spring and lunge straight at it rather than having to slow down and steer your jump.

As for the multi-routes, well... It's true that they are a great element in the series, though I do think some of us blow it out of proportion, I can't remember any other options in Sandopolis or Chemical Plant, seems like a nice bonus but not fundamental... If you take a look at the 2D Mario series, aside from some cheats/secrets, they're pretty much one route and one route only, and they're critically acclaimed... And I guess it depends on how you look at it - an alternate route could skip out a certain challenge etc. while Mario provides the same challenge for whoever plays it... I'm not saying multiple routes are something which should be done away with, I'm just saying that the lack of these doesn't make for a bad game.

It does seem that for a lot of people it's in the name... As soon as it was branded Sonic 4 it suddenly had much bigger shoes to fill, which I guess sort of makes sense. Project Needlemouse could have been anything but Sonic 4 has to actually be the fourth Sonic game, so I totally understand folks having high expectations, but green eyes and life icons are trivial and we absolutely cannot comment on level design for something we have officially seen 2 seconds of.

[SykoTech]

@DistantJ

I take it that you haven't seen the leaked footage?

http://www.destructoid.com/leaked-sonic-4-footage-confirms-it-s-a-sonic-game-163943.phtml

I think it looks good myself...

[Tornado]

I mean does anybody else have trouble in Sonic Rush or the Advance series when you just don't see the enemies coming?

Absolutely. Sonic Advance 2 had problems with exactly that before the second zone was even over. Sonic Advance 3 was made up of nothing but such shenanigans, and the original Sonic Rush was nearly as bad.

I can't remember any other options in Sandopolis or Chemical Plant, seems like a nice bonus but not fundamental...

There was an alternate route barely two screens past the start point of Chemical Plant.

If you take a look at the 2D Mario series, aside from some cheats/secrets, they're pretty much one route and one route only, and they're critically acclaimed...

The Mario series also always had a completely different level design philosophy than the Sonic games did.

And I'm starting to wonder:

but green eyes and life icons are trivial

How often are people actually bitching about these things anymore? I haven't seen anyone bitch about green eyes and modern Sonic for months outside of the troll blog posts making fun of these supposed complainers, and even back when people were complaining about it the only extent was "this looks too much like Sonic Rush" rather than "OMIGOD MODERN SONIC SUX."

Edited March 30, 2010 by Tornado