Are we getting too picky?

[Remy]

Let me say it again, because you're not getting the point: complaining over the name change is pointless when it doesn't matter which of the two names is being used.

It only doesn't matter to you, in particular, because your preferred name is being used i imagine.

it matters to us because the name of the character we grew up got changed to some other shit with the name we know being relegated to a footnote in a manual somewhere. Kids today don't even know the name Robotnik, he's just eggman.

it's like renaming Megaman Rock "Mega" Man

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It only doesn't matter to you, in particular, because your preferred name is being used i imagine.

I prefer both. I grew up with the name Robotnik as much as any other old-time fan when I was little, and found it wierd how he was called Eggman throughout most of SA1, but at 9 years old it never bothered me (I dealt with it by simply calling him Robotnik at that time). And after SA2 I began to use Eggman more simply because of the association to Eggs.

But the fact that it bothers people going into adulthood, who are capable of being more rational than this, is something I find pointless.

it matters to us because the name of the character we grew up got changed to some other shit with the name we know being relegated to a footnote in a manual somewhere.

No matter what you say about the contrary, the name has NOT been changed. Not to the extent that calls for any die-hard fan to be so critical about at the very least. The fact that they kept the name Robotnik along side Eggman shows that they're not going to wipe the name out of the series at all.

And I doubt anyone is going to forget the name Robotnik, especially when other less worried fans who use the name Robotnik use it as frequently as those who use Eggman.

Kids today don't even know the name Robotnik, he's just eggman.

So you're worried about what name the kids use? I'm sure even kids know of the name Robotnik, but because Eggman is used they go with that more. I'm even sure these same kids who are becoming big time fans of the series are going on wikipedia and other Sonic sites and seeing the name Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik together, so I'm pretty sure they would know about both names. So they're irrelevant in this debate.

it's like renaming Megaman Rock "Mega" Man

And? Just like "Eggman" Robotnik, you're not going to find any other character who's named Rockman or Megaman but this guy:

What I want to know is why is it really that hard to call him Robotnik and leave it to that? The name obviously hasn't evenly slightly died out in nearly the decade it hasn't been said in the games, and what the kids use is completely irrelevant, so where's the fire here? Because the name seems to be such a problem that always stirs up the debate between those who care about the name Robotnik more and those who don't mind either name.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Jetronic]

It only doesn't matter to you, in particular, because your preferred name is being used i imagine.

it matters to us because the name of the character we grew up got changed to some other shit with the name we know being relegated to a footnote in a manual somewhere. Kids today don't even know the name Robotnik, he's just eggman.

I grew up with it too and I'm not complaining =\

Also

To tell the truth, his name has not changed. Robotnik is his real name and Eggman is a common name taken after his shape. Possibly, it may have been Sonic, who uttered this alias for the first time! I feel, though, Sonic uses this name affectionately, rather than trying to make fun of him.

Hell the good doctor's titles is even now being known as "Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik". Regardless of why each person likes the Sonic series for their own little reason, it comes down to how this little argument trend goes. One person likes something, others like it, more like it, people say what they like, conflicting opinions start arguments. I've seen the same thing over and over and over again, wherever I go...ever since I was in grade school people still act like children.

So other Children don't know? It's not a big deal, if they like the series as much as they do, they'll find more in depth info like most of us did.

What I want to know is why is it really that hard to call him Robotnik and leave it to that? The name obviously hasn't evenly slightly died out in nearly the decade it hasn't been said in the games, and what the kids use is completely irrelevant, so where's the fire here? Because the name seems to be such a problem that always stirs up the debate between those who care about the name Robotnik more and those who don't mind either name.

This.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jetronic

[Remy]

I have no particular attachment to either name, tbh, although buttnik and assorted insults and related names will always have a place in my heart, I don't hate the name "Eggman" I'm arguing for Robotnik because I find this elitist OMG why not just call him eggman attitude" semi repulsive, much like a lot of the other "just accept it sonic has changed" arguements (see: whenever we talk about the homing attack, sonic 4, anything of the sort.)

As the topic says "are we being too picky?" I argue we're not being picky enough, or not picky over the important things, at least. This fanbase's tendancy to just accept any old shit as quality is probably the reason we've been getting shitty games.

It'll be interesting to see if after the delay SEGA actually change about sonic 4 for the better. If it does, I guess those of us saying we need to be more picky are right.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't hate the name "Eggman" I'm arguing for Robotnik because I find this elitist OMG why not just call him eggman attitude" semi repulsive, much like a lot of the other "just accept it sonic has changed" arguements (see: whenever we talk about the homing attack, sonic 4, anything of the sort.)

Uh...you mean Robotnik, right?

Either way, there are a lot of things that are leagues worth complaining about than Eggman's name. I mean how do you complain about something that only takes a fan one measely step to fix? Every time I dig into an argument over the name, I can't find any easier step for someone to take than to call him the name they like. The whole "OMG itz ROBOT-NIK!" thing is elitist in itself, probably moreso since you don't hear anyone complain about how his name should be Eggman. It's like it's really hard step for others to take.

Anyway...

As the topic says "are we being too picky?" I argue we're not being picky enough, or not picky over the importing things, at least. This fanbase's tendancy to just accept any old shit as quality is probably the reason we've been getting shitty games. It'll be interesting to see if after the delay SEGa actually change about sonic 4 for the better.

I'd say it's more of the flip-flop nature of the fanbase, along with Sonic Team jumping off the cliff with ideas. Those who like the newer side are completely silent compared to the Classic fans and the Neutral fans want in quality of the series.

Were it that easy for the fandom to except anything, we wouldn't have a different playstyle in virtually every game since SA2, and they would have just tacked on more junk along with the old junk we got instead of finding ways to improve the formulas they had so that the new stuff complimented to old. Or atleast taking the time to reinvent a newer formula that can work.

As vocal as this fanbase is, it's not particularly anything involving accepting the bad. Though some do try to look at the positive and squeeze out some fun, I try to look at things from a neutral standpoint (while looking for the positive. )

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Remy]

mean how do you complain about something that only takes a fan one measely step to fix? Every time I dig into an argument over the name, I can't find any easier step for someone to take than to call him the name they like. The whole "OMG itz ROBOT-NIK!" thing is elitist in itself, probably moreso since you don't hear anyone complain about how his name should be Eggman. It's like it's really hard step for others to take.

You really can't see the other group's side at all, huh?

Were it that easy for the fandom to except anything, we wouldn't have a different playstyle in virtually every game since SA2.

We have people who love Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, and even theplay the same game 4 times goodness of Sonic heroes.

It is easy for this fanbase to *accept* anything.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You really can't see the other group's side at all, huh?

What do you see in the other group's side, becase I'm not seeing is how it is really such an issue. And I don't think they're seeing my side of the argument either. Really, where's the fire?

I know they grew up with the name Robotnik like I have as well, but what I want to know is what the problem is over the name Eggman being used.

We have people who love Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, and even theplay the same game 4 times goodness of Sonic heroes.

It is easy for this fanbase to *accept* anything.

Then they would have added more to the Shadow formula by adding what was in Sonic 06 along with ShTH. We would have had Guns and Swearing along with the atrociousness of Sonic 06, if we accepted anything. But they took out the guns and swearing and pretty much revived and mucked up the SA1 formula in making Sonic 06.

However, those two are among the most widely hated games even among the fandom, so it's obviously not that easy to accept anything, and that goes triple in Sonic 06's case.

I honestly think it is something else, what it is I'm not completely sure, but I'm guessing it's Sonic Team being in over their heads with ideas.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Remy]

Every game since SA2 has been a revive and fuck up of that same formula. You mention Sonic Team being over their heads with their ideas but all their precious ideas have been is half baked psuedo conceptual gimmicks tacked onto an already semi broken formula.

Guns and swearing are the least of the flaws in the game, tbh

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Every game since SA2 has been a revive and fuck up of that same formula. You mention Sonic Team being over their heads with their ideas but all their precious ideas have been is half baked psuedo conceptual gimmicks tacked onto an already semi broken formula.

All of which adds further to them being in over their heads. I mean who really asked for any of their gameplay ideas the way they've been executed, we didn't ask for gun gameplay, we didn't ask for telekinesis, we didn't ask for the werehog. If we ate all of that up we would have gotten all that back plus more, rather than them switching up on those ideas to find something that would actually work.

Guns and swearing are the least of the flaws in the game, tbh

I know, I just picked the ones that stood out more tho.

[Remy]

But you did ask for a Shadow The Hedgehog game.

The problem with Sonic team is there's seemingly no one at the studio saying "fuck this idea is fucking retarded and terrible, we need to dial this shit back" and instead we just get awful, half baked terrible games year after year.

If they're not going to do it, I figure the fanbase should. Loudly, and repeatedly.

[Indigo Rush]

I just realized.

Bowser has another name too.

In Japan, he's called King Koopa.

In America, he's called Bowser.

Bowser's minions are all always called Koopa Troopas, not Bowser Minions, even in the early games.

They never meshed the names together and no one has ever complained about that.

And as for the Sonic universe:

In Japan, he was called Eggman.

In America, he was called Robotnik.

Dr. Robotnik has always used the word "Egg" in his bigger machines, not Robotnik, even in the early games.

SEGA meshed the names together for continuity and everyone has complained about that.

Clearly, SEGA was stupid to even try to mesh the Japanese continuity with the American one.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Indigo Dude

[Remy]

The solution is clearly to call him King "Bowser" Koopa. Lmao. Can't have Nintendo pleasing people!

[Octarine]

I just realized.

Bowser has another name too.

In Japan, he's called King Koopa.

In America, he's called Bowser.

Bowser's minions are all always called Koopa Troopas, not Bowser Minions, even in the early games.

They never meshed the names together and no one has ever complained about that.

In Japan, she was called Princess Peach.

In America, she was called Princess Toadstool.

After Super Mario 64 (roughly), she was called Peach everywhere. Nobody really complained about that, either.

I think the lesson to be learned here is just that Mario fans are much more laid-back than we are. And possibly that "Toadstool" is an awful name.

[Remy]

Yeah, Peach resounds a lot more with hot young blonde princess then toadstool does, hahaha!

[psikeout]

In Japan, she was called Princess Peach.

In America, she was called Princess Toadstool.

After Super Mario 64 (roughly), she was called Peach everywhere. Nobody really complained about that, either.

I think the lesson to be learned here is just that Mario fans are much more laid-back than we are. And possibly that "Toadstool" is an awful name.

I think it might also have to do with the fact that the Mario series has some pretty charming, humorous, and effective localization, too. The original Japanese versions of the Mario games (esp. the Paper Mario series) are rife with onomatopoeia, wordplay, puns, etc., but very little of it would make sense in English. I think there's just some subconscious acceptance that Bowser and Koopa are one in the same (some even instinctively calling him King Bowser Koopa), and there's really just no dispute over it, you know? Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door is like the epitome of a well-localized game. It's not the exact same as the original, but it's great in its own way, and highly accessible to a Western audience, replete with gags of all sorts, including thinly-veiled naughty humor.

On the other hand, the Sonic series... hasn't been handled quite so well, in my opinion. The characters have a lot of real, spoken dialogue, typically with awkward, poorly translated lines and bad delivery, and even the JP source material leaves a lot to be desired sometimes. The Mario series dodges the bullet by being mostly silent and having this cast of really established characters, enemies, minor foes, etc., and highly professional localization teams.

And, lastly, "Bowser vs. Koopa" carries no baggage like Eggman vs. Robotnik does. Eggman vs. Robotnik covers a whole range of general dispute crap from continuity-vs.-continuity strife (SatAM vs. games, Archie, etc.), personality BS (Robotnik is evil, Eggman is goofy, blah blah), and everything else.

In other words, I think Mario fans just have less to fight about, and less to be bugged about overall.

[Skyward Sword]

And, lastly, "Bowser vs. Koopa" carries no baggage like Eggman vs. Robotnik does. Eggman vs. Robotnik covers a whole range of general dispute crap from continuity-vs.-continuity strife (SatAM vs. games, Archie, etc.), personality BS (Robotnik is evil, Eggman is goofy, blah blah), and everything else.

You are so right.

(Off Topic: I am a bowser fan ( I always call him that.))

[turbojet]

Are we still complaining about the names? Its like Aeris and Aerith but worse since both Eggman and Robotnik are correct! Jesus, can we atleast evolve and get away from this topic and get to...I don't know...more pressing issues about the series? I think that discussion alone answers this topic's question. Yes, we are getting too picky! I have never seen a fanbase go on tangents about voice actors(granted that both choices are pretty abysmal) or get worked up over one gameplay feature that most of the time you don't have to use!

@Remz, Hell No! All of these "half baked and terrible" ideas come from the fans! Every single one of them! Screw the fans because, at this point, we are unpleasable! We bitch about every little thing and now we are divided amongst factions(2-D vs 3-D, retro vs new, speed vs platforming). To make the fans dictate a game is like asking for a game to suck. You might as well give Eve the apple and not even bother explaining the consequences.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But you did ask for a Shadow The Hedgehog game.

I could've sworn Sonic Team took it upon themselves to make a Shadow game. Iizuka did say that they've always wanted to make one since SA2.

Whether or not a Shadow game was asked for, a game trying to be a rip-off of Halo wasn't on anyone's list.

The problem with Sonic team is there's seemingly no one at the studio saying "fuck this idea is fucking retarded and terrible, we need to dial this shit back" and instead we just get awful, half baked terrible games year after year.

Actually, there were folks in the Sega of America division who were telling Sonic Team not to add the Werehog in Unleashed from what I've heard. Yet they did it anyway.

The problem isn't that no one is telling them that the idea is terrible (because clearly they were with Unleashed), but that Sonic Team themselves refuse to listen to things and do what they feel like doing.

And when we do give tell them what we want, they take the idea and add some other stuff that we never expected.

We ask for a Sonic only game, they give us just that, but we have the werehog that somehow Sonic Team thought we wanted.

We wanted a fast game, we ended up getting a game that is fast while it kills us for wanting to go fast at times.

We wanted more platforming, we get the werehog.

We wanted a new Sonic Adventure game, we get Sonic 06.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

Actually, there were folks in the Sega of America division who were telling Sonic Team not to add the Werehog in Unleashed from what I've heard. Yet they did it anyway.

Sega of America and Sega of Europe.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sega of America and Sega of Europe.

Wow, Europe too? That only shows even more how hard-headed the Japanese division is...

Then again, they've been like that for quite a while haven't they?

[Remy]

@Remz, Hell No! All of these "half baked and terrible" ideas come from the fans! Every single one of them! Screw the fans because, at this point, we are unpleasable! We bitch about every little thing and now we are divided amongst factions(2-D vs 3-D, retro vs new, speed vs platforming). To make the fans dictate a game is like asking for a game to suck. You might as well give Eve the apple and not even bother explaining the consequences.

Bullshit.

[psikeout]

Bullshit.

I would've gotten modded for a one-word reply like that. :/

Anyway, he's sensationalizing it, but there are some half-truths in there. Some of the worst ideas realized in the series (mostly shooting elements) did arise from suggestions Sega received from its fanbase, or at least that's the spin the interwebs puts on the story. But, it's all okay; even though it eventually resulted in Shadow getting his own game full of guns, it initially gave us Gamma. And Gamma was BA.

[Remy]

I would've gotten modded for a one-word reply like that. :/

I sad shit like that before I got my badge, too. Deal with it.

Shifting the blame from the true cause (Iizuka's) into one that very likely has very, very little to do with the actual game development (fans) is super crazy. You're like battered wives! "Oh SEGA never did anything wrong! it was just me again with my big mouth, my fault, all my fault..."

I really doubt some kind of demented focus testing gave us the Shadow the Hedgehog game (loaded with guns and... cars?) , or even Gamma. Seriously, how on earth would Gamma be the result of fan request? Pretty sure he came entirely out of left field- although it's been a long time for me since SA came out and I can't really remember.

[Phos]

In Japan, she was called Princess Peach.

In America, she was called Princess Toadstool.

After Super Mario 64 (roughly), she was called Peach everywhere. Nobody really complained about that, either.

I think the lesson to be learned here is just that Mario fans are much more laid-back than we are. And possibly that "Toadstool" is an awful name.

They fixed a problem, Toadstool is a pretty bad name if you ask me, though it is interesting that it seems to be implied that "Toadstool" is still Peach's last name, what with the place being called the Mushroom Kingdom.

I'm aware of any explanation for why they changed King Koopa's name to Bowser in the US, but it doesn't matter a great deal to me because it's never said out loud.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Deem Bristo is actually good at saying "Egg Man" in an interesting way, which fits in nicely with my version of him calling himself Eggman and everyone else calling him Robotnik. It's kind of like how Batman calls Two Face "Harvey".

Edit: I really doubt that Sonic Team was affected by crap on the internet as far back as Sonic Adventure.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Phos

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Edit: I really doubt that Sonic Team was affected by crap on the internet as far back as Sonic Adventure.

It actually started around the Heroes-ShTH era. Things were pretty okay until that point, then it got lukewarm in Heroes, then went to high hell in ShTH.