Are we getting too picky?

[NiGHTS]

I understand that, but you can't use the Mario series as a comparison to paint Sonic fans as fickle because there have only ever been two games in the entire series that didn't use the current design.

No. The Mario design of today is nearly identical to the Mario design of Super Mario Bros 2. That's 1981 to 1986. Which is only 5 years. During that time there were only 4 games released, two of which aren't even Mario games to begin with, and each of which had a different character design anyways.

Because one had multiple character designs over the course of 5 years and 4 games, and was replaced with one design that has proceeded to be used with rather minor changes for a longer amount of time than the Sonic series has even existed. The other series had a single design that was used for 8 years and several dozen games (and is still occasionally used today), and only then was replaced.

I don't think I can agree with you on there. Pretty much Mario's apperence really stayed similar ever since the Gamecube era came out. (Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion.) Because the other games previous, had enough differences to make Mario his classic version. Head is shaped different, shorter legs and arms ect. Now they made him longer in some area, like Sonic's qulls are longer.

Sonic, Mario. Any character that changed from there classic versions to the morden day, hell even Pacman. No one fights more about how a character looks then Sonic. He didn't change any more drasticly then Mario or the others. Thats my point, and it shouldn't affect a game. Or people saying its going to suck cause it isn't a burden copy of the originals.

[Tornado]

Regardless, the Mario design having longer legs and a rounder stomach (which isn't a universal change, by the way) is considerably different from a total redesign of the character, which is exactly what Sonic received.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tornado

[MrROBOTO1988]

Sonic may have received a complete redesign, but honestly, look at what they actually changed:

Longer legs

green eyes

buckles on shoes (although he had those on MANY an artwork, official or not)

not as round of a belly

longer quills

So yes, Sonic got a complete redesign, but it STILL didn't drastically change much.

For you to consider Mario's changes a complete redesign, do his eyes need color? do his shoes need some new addition? you see where we're getting with this?

[NiGHTS]

Sonic may have received a complete redesign, but honestly, look at what they actually changed:

Longer legs

green eyes

buckles on shoes (although he had those on MANY an artwork, official or not)

not as round of a belly

longer quills

So yes, Sonic got a complete redesign, but it STILL didn't drastically change much.

For you to consider Mario's changes a complete redesign, do his eyes need color? do his shoes need some new addition? you see where we're getting with this?

I kind of agree. Mario's shoes were totally different colors, got a larger hat. So yes, if you compare and contrast the differences both characters did, its almost the same. So don't think Sonic changes SO much differently then Mario. Cause that isn't true.

[MrROBOTO1988]

again, I agree that his quill change actually WAS a rather large change. It's kinda like if you took Mario's hat, and instead of it being....well, whatever style of hat that is....anyways, take that and make it into a fedora or something. big aesthetic change goin on, and i can see why the quill change is a big change. however, the rest of it is all very minor.

[NiGHTS]

again, I agree that his quill change actually WAS a rather large change. It's kinda like if you took Mario's hat, and instead of it being....well, whatever style of hat that is....anyways, take that and make it into a fedora or something. big aesthetic change goin on, and i can see why the quill change is a big change. however, the rest of it is all very minor.

It you wanna talk about a huge change, take Amy for example. They didn't change his quills like how she did. So I think we can tell whats a big change and whats minor here.

[DistantJ]

I love how we're all talking like we know better than SEGA. SEGA invented Sonic and if they're having trouble with him then clearly it's because this kind of speed is difficult to make a 3D (or 2D, when faster) game out of and us, the fans, seem to all want something different and are impossible to please.

If people don't like the look of Sonic 4 they shouldn't buy Sonic 4... I mean nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, what, you think it might go back in time and delete Sonic 1-3-Knuckles? I'm looking forward to it, whether it's perfect or flawed, I'm going to play a new high definition 2D Sonic and it's going to be fun, I couldn't give a shit about homing attacks, animations, the overall number of routes (Seriously, you guys EXPLORED in Sonic games? I always just went with whatever route I ended up on when I went as fast as I could, so long as I'm not falling down bottomless pits from the top of the level I'm cool, I barely remember any major alternate routes from the originals anyway), green eyes (Sonic was rebranded, he didn't 'gain' green eyes and 'grow' over time, this is his more detailed, post-3D design, like Mario becoming more streamlined from an off-model cartoon), SuperSonic (I know you guys want to have SuperSonic in the levels but does anybody ever actually do that? I mean in Sonic 3/K you get that hideously annoying repeating music and in Sonic 2 he turns it into the whole 'hold right to win' thing which most of us hate, so why do we want it so much?), Eggman's name, or anything else.

I LIKE SONIC and so I buy Sonic games when they appeal to me. I don't care what changes, the fundamental gameplay (Sonic Rush plays completely differently and I love it for it, it reinvents fast platforming), the character design, the setting, if it's fun it's fun, and if it captures the spirit of Sonic (kickass, super-fast platform games with an attitude), then that's all I ever asked for. I wish more people would think this way...

[Tornado]

I kind of agree. Mario's shoes were totally different colors, got a larger hat. So yes, if you compare and contrast the differences both characters did, its almost the same.

Except his shoes never changed color. They've always been brown in the Mario games. And I see you ignored the fact that Mario never had a consistent design before 1986.

So don't think Sonic changes SO much differently then Mario. Cause that isn't true.

Mario has some minor detail changes in some of the modern versions. Sonic is drawn completely differently then he was originally. Quite frankly, you are blind if you think the change from this:

to this:

Is anywhere near the same thing as this:

to this:

That is all.

I love how we're all talking like we know better than SEGA. SEGA invented Sonic and if they're having trouble with him then clearly it's because this kind of speed is difficult to make a 3D (or 2D, when faster) game out of and us, the fans, seem to all want something different and are impossible to please.

Why is it when people create "why do you not like X" threads in the Sonic forum and people proceed to post examples and reasoning, the OP usually turns around and screams "well, Sega knows better than you so shut up"?

[BlazingTales]

I know I've posted this once, but I'm going to do so again...

But this:

to this:

IS a pretty big change. More so than Sonic's I'd say.

(And yes, contrary to popular belief, this WAS an "official" design. It was on the arcade machine, it was on the posters, and it was even on a cover of a magazine! If that's not official I don't know what is! )

EDIT: I think I just totally missed the point, didn't I? If that's the case, feel free to ignore this...

Edited March 31, 2010 by BlazingTales

[Agent York]

Mario has some minor detail changes in some of the modern versions. Sonic is drawn completely differently then he was originally. Quite frankly, you are blind if you think the change from this:

to this:

Is anywhere near the same thing as this:

to this:

That is all.

Except those are different points in Sonic's and Mario's lifetime, a better sonic comparison of equivalence would be this:

to this:

Also, Mario's shirt and trousers switched colors-shot-

[Barry the Nomad]

I have to point out that this:

was a stylized art style only used in promo, packaging and menus. Not used in game. While promo art is a good gauge for character design evolution, I prefer to compare in-game models as that's what you see most of the game!

A more valid comparison would be from this:

to this (first major 3D game):

to this (first major 2D game with a 3D model):

[Badnik Zero]

(Seriously, you guys EXPLORED in Sonic games? I always just went with whatever route I ended up on when I went as fast as I could, so long as I'm not falling down bottomless pits from the top of the level I'm cool, I barely remember any major alternate routes from the originals anyway)

Not really about exploration. It's just different ways around. But if you wanted to explore, then sure. Especially in the 3D games, you can't ever turn around and go back to where you came from. I don't think it's trivial to want freedom in your games, especially a Sonic game.

(I know you guys want to have SuperSonic in the levels but does anybody ever actually do that?)

I didn't know people didn't do this. Most of us love Super Sonic. He's a great unlockable for a series to have.

I LIKE SONIC and so I buy Sonic games when they appeal to me. I don't care what changes, the fundamental gameplay (Sonic Rush plays completely differently and I love it for it, it reinvents fast platforming), the character design, the setting, if it's fun it's fun, and if it captures the spirit of Sonic (kickass, super-fast platform games with an attitude), then that's all I ever asked for. I wish more people would think this way...

So that's cool, you're a fan of the series in general. Me too. But some people are in it for the gameplay - you gotta admit it's not always consistent.

[NiGHTS]

Except his shoes never changed color. They've always been brown in the Mario games. And I see you ignored the fact that Mario never had a consistent design before 1986.

Mario has some minor detail changes in some of the modern versions. Sonic is drawn completely differently then he was originally. Quite frankly, you are blind if you think the change from this:

to this:

Is anywhere near the same thing as this:

to this:

That is all.

Why is it when people create "why do you not like X" threads in the Sonic forum and people proceed to post examples and reasoning, the OP usually turns around and screams "well, Sega knows better than you so shut up"?

Im not blind, even look at Mario's shirt. They completely changed the colors. From modern game to modern game, even Sonic changed alittle in each game, its why his unleashed version looks different then the 06 game! Your making it sound like Sonic changed so much, you can't compare it to other characters like Mario. When you compare those pics, it surely does look like Mario was redrawn the same way as Sonic. Mario's head changed as much as Sonic Quills did.

And if you want to argue about that every game looks alittle different? We will go by what Doctor Eggman stated. Go by the game models? I see a difference in Sonic 1-3 sprites, just like Mario has during his older 2d games.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Amy Rose

[DistantJ]

Yeah, not consistent, but different gameplay doesn't equal bad gameplay is what I'm saying. Personally I think Sonic Rush has some of the best gameplay in the entire series because it quits trying to be the old games and embraces what it is. It turns the constant speed of Advance 2 into something with challenge by using the tricks and boost and timing tricks and all that.

By the way, this whole thing about comparing Sonic's redesign to Mario's is getting silly. Are we forgetting that Sonic disappeared for an entire console generation? He returned with a complete rebrand and a new design, though the artwork was more different from the originals than the actual in-game stuff was, and lately he's come to resemble a cross between the two. I personally love the new design and I think it sums up Sonic's 'attitude' better for modern day. We're forgetting the differences between Mario and Sonic... Mario never tried to be cool, he was just a fun little character to star in the game, Sonic's whole selling point (aside from the speed) was that he was all cool and hip for the kids and had an attitude, and that kind of thing changes with the times. I mean the SA series had this sort of 'skateboard art' thing going on, and his new design makes him more of a funky mascot and less of a blue Mickey Mouse.

[Tornado]

I know I've posted this once, but I'm going to do so again...

But this:

to this:

IS a pretty big change. More so than Sonic's I'd say.

I already mentioned that. Mario's design was redone in every game before Super Mario 2, so there was no "old design."

I see a difference in Sonic 1-3 sprites, just like Mario has during his older 2d games.

You mean the older 2D games that spanned multiple types of hardware?

Yeah, not consistent, but different gameplay doesn't equal bad gameplay is what I'm saying.

Except this is called Sonic 4, and was specifically mentioned to be a direct continuation of the classic titles, so it kind of does.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tornado

[NiGHTS]

You mean the older 2D games that spanned multiple types of hardware?

Even comparing the sprites of just the three Mario games of the NES and the sprites of Sonic1-3, the character design in the game changed just as much. Even Sonic had changes through hardware, (Classic Sonic even to the Saturn)

But a continuation? Im sure you remember a little game called Super Mario All stars? they pretty much remade the graphics of Super Mario Bros 1-3. No one complained, if they remade Sonic 1-3 with upgraded graphics to like Sonic 4 style. Everyone will complain. Its the same concept.

[MrROBOTO1988]

Im sure you remember a little game called Super Mario All stars? they pretty much remade the graphics of Super Mario Bros 1-3. No one complained, if they remade Sonic 1-3 with upgraded graphics to like Sonic 4 style. Everyone will complain. Its the same concept.

Oh my god that is sooooo true!!!! I personally would LOVE IT if Sega did that, but most "Sonic Fans" would just complain and complain and complain and complain some more that it's ruining the classics or something like that.

[DeVeAn]

Where are the Sonic fans from my age group? I am 25 and I swear I don't remember so many complainers when a franchise tried to change it up. Are the fans complaining, people from another era? Sonic 4 looks fine my gosh people let's play it first.

Edited April 2, 2010 by DeVeAn

[Roorii]

I don't care what who looks like, as long as the games are good. In This case, Mario has had consistently good games since the SNES. Whilst Sonic on the other hand.. um, yeah.

[DistantJ]

Where are the Sonic fans from my age group? I am 25 and I swear I don't remember so many complainers when a franchise tried to change it up. Are the fans complaining, people from another era? Sonic 4 looks fine my gosh people let's play it first.

Hey maybe it is to do with that... I'm 24 and I agree with you... Maybe it's the internet generation? I mean a lot of people who complain about Sonic didn't even get the chance to play the originals in their prime, just read about how great they were and run emulators or mega collections... I mean we're often dealing with a lot of people who got into Sonic from SA2 Battle, and yet say Sonic sucked since the Saturn came out.

Edited April 2, 2010 by DistantJ

[MrROBOTO1988]

Where are the Sonic fans from my age group? I am 25 and I swear I don't remember so many complainers when a franchise tried to change it up. Are the fans complaining, people from another era? Sonic 4 looks fine my gosh people let's play it first.

I'm 21, and I literally grew up with Sonic. I am not a complainer about Sonic 4, I am so absolutely excited about it, it looks amazing.

[Rusty Spy]

I mean a lot of people who complain about Sonic didn't even get the chance to play the originals in their prime,

All the people who complain about Sonic and shit are the VERY people who played the originals. They are the fanboys who, after playing Sonic for most of their childhoods, now spend their time nitpicking the ever loving crap out of every tiny detail of a Sonic game and bitching about how the "good ol' days" are dead.

In other words, see this.

[Phos]

As far as I can tell, this image is from an arcade flier. Chances are, it wasn't even created by Nintendo, or at least not by anyone involved with the actual game. Even if it was made by NoA, that would be akin to citing Ass Face sonic as justification that crease on New sonic's brow.

[MrROBOTO1988]

oh that's right, speaking of little things that people complain about with regards to sonic's appearance, his brow. yup. his brow.

[EXshad]

Well, of course certain things are nitpicky. Like saying Sonic should have black eyes and be a tad chubbier. And that the lack of is going to ruin your experience with the game.

But some things, like complaining about the overusage of speed pads or the reusage of old enemies and bosses are legitimate complains, not nitpicks. For one, "fairly earning momentum" (as a Sonic Team rep himself put it) is gained by running up and down hills, cleverly avoiding obstacles, using the spin-dash when necessary, etc. But that entire concept is dashed when speed boosters are littered everywhere. also, I thought this game was a BRAND NEW adventure? Why the rehash of bosses and enemies, huh?!

So overall, no, asking for the things in the previous paragraph doesn't make us too picky at all. Saying that Sonic lacking a few minor features will ruin the game for you is.

Edited April 4, 2010 by EXshad