Are we getting too picky?

[Pelly <3's U]

But that's a very loud 1 on that ratio, and it has means of making itself even bigger than what it seems. Of course, the only way to do so is for them to go further out the fanbase...

I'd venture to say it's the 20 people complaining about that 1 person that's making it seem bigger then it is.

Either way, the meme-like status it has is a way to prevent this from happening in the future...of course, that never worked, but I do think there is a reason behind it that I find more understandable than those who contribute to the trivial complaints we used to have.

So people should complain to keep others from complaining? It really doesn't work, because as soon as you all complain about people complaining, it gives leeway for others to complain about how the whole fanbase can't get along and does nothing but complain (ironic loool), which then leads to more complaining.

There shouldn't be a sonic cycle, there should be a complaining cycle.

[Agent York]

There shouldn't be a sonic cycle, there should be a complaining cycle.

I've got the next best thing.

Still the whole cycle thing is nonsense, everything is a case by case basis. Though the complaints all around by this game from the start have been varied and mixed, yet great reception from most people outside the fanbase.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dusk the Wicked Keeper

[DeVeAn]

I agree. I only joined this forum recently because I've been so hyped about Sonic 4, and I find everybody complaining about stupid things. I mean there are some legitimate worries that I can see having with the game, but I can't understand it how supposed Sonic FANS are instantly writing this game off, some saying they won't buy it or even try it, yet this game is so much closer to the classics than anything we've seen recently. I bet these people tried Sonic 06 and Sonic Unleashed, and those looked a lot less like a classic sonic game than this is looking.

We think a like. We should start a movement and talk about what looks good in Sonic 4. I'll go first, The graphics look great lots of color which most games lack today.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd venture to say it's the 20 people complaining about that 1 person that's making it seem bigger then it is.

But that one person had to be pretty loud to get 20 complaining about him, otherwise there would've been much less who would've bothered to complain.

There would've been complaints either way, but it takes a lot (or the right strings pulled, trivial mess, whatever term floats your boat) to have 20 people get onto one person.

So people should complain to keep others from complaining? It really doesn't work, because as soon as you all complain about people complaining, it gives leeway for others to complain about how the whole fanbase can't get along and does nothing but complain (ironic loool), which then leads to more complaining.

But...that's exactly what I meant.

Except I'm not saying that people should complain to keep other complaining, rather that it is the reason why they do it; however, in doing so, complaining in general doesn't work to achieve that goal of silencing the ones complaining over things. In other words, it backfires.

I understand the reason people complain about those who complain about stuff that really doesn't matter much in the long run (like the whole Eggman/Robotnik name complaints for example), but complaining about them doesn't exactly do much to stop anything.

There shouldn't be a sonic cycle, there should be a complaining cycle.

How about a criticism cycle? Much less of the trivial stuff, and much less of people getting too personal.

Then again, that'll never happen.

Edited April 7, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Pelly <3's U]

But that one person had to be pretty loud to get 20 complaining about him, otherwise there would've been much less who would've bothered to complain.

There would've been complaints either way, but it takes a lot (or the right strings pulled, trivial mess, whatever term floats your boat) to have 20 people get onto one person.

No, they really don't/it really doesn't....and that's the sad point that me and Jake are trying to make. Everything gets blown out of proportion and you get excuses like 'it's to make sure people see how ridiculous their complaints are.' It is total irony, and one of the sadder aspects of the fanbase if you ask me.

[MrROBOTO1988]

Some of the most vocal and most passionate fanbase members were the ones complaining about trivial things such as green eyes, long legs, skinny body, long quills, sonic's brow, eyelid color, and the list goes on. And to tell you the truth, these things STILL pop up from these people. Not even a week ago, in one of these Sonic 4 threads, somebody was making a huff about how Sonic's brow looks terrible in the Sonic 4 logo. HIS BROW!!! If there's more people who think these claims are ridiculous, I sure can't tell, because I feel like everywhere I look, somebody is complaining about something trivial that has nothing to do with the game. It wasnt just a few people, and it wasn't just at the beginning of the Sonic 4 hype. It's still going on, and by a good amount of folks.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, they really don't/it really doesn't....and that's the sad point that me and Jake are trying to make. Everything gets blown out of proportion and you get excuses like 'it's to make sure people see how ridiculous their complaints are.' It is total irony, and one of the sadder aspects of the fanbase if you ask me.

Isn't that the reason why that one person get's 20 people on him? Because both sides blow the whole ordeal out of proportion?

One person makes a big fuss about some stuff about the series, making 20 people notice and make a bigger fuss about him fussing over that stuff? But the 20 people fussing to "make sure people see how ridiculous they are" only leads up to an even bigger fuss from the ones they're fussing about, resulting in the complaining cycle you mentioned. Their attempt to prevent the more trivial complaints end up backfiring as they end up in an even more trivial mess than they were in while more people end up joining one side of the whole ragefest, which is how the whole thing gets blown out of proportion.

...or am I still not understanding you correctly?

Edited April 7, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sean]

You just don't get it.

I love how the complainer of complainers is portrayed as some sort of magnificent philanthropist who just wants to do what he can to better the fanbase.

The fanbase is ridiculous, and not for any of the reasons that hardly any member on this message board realizes.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You just don't get it.

What am I not getting?

I love how the complainer of complainers is portrayed as some sort of magnificent philanthropist who just wants to do what he can to better the fanbase.

They're not. I can understand why the complainer of complainer complains, but he isn't exactly any different than the ones he's complaining about.

Edited April 7, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Light]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all there is to understand about the fanbase's current situation is this

I lost most of my hype for this game a little while ago, but if fans dislike certain details then that's just how they feel. At this point there's probably little that can change either side's opinion of this game.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Light

[MrROBOTO1988]

Are we getting too picky?

I think we're all getting way too picky about stuff, and then we're getting picky about those people getting picky. This entire page has been complaining about complaining about complaining, or some degree of that, and there's no end in sight, because you could say that now i am complaining about that. SO, i think it's safe to say we're all being too picky about something, whether its about Sonic 4 in some aspect, or about the fans who we don't agree with.

The fanbase is ridiculous, and not for any of the reasons that hardly any member on this message board realizes.

What then is it that makes the fanbase ridiculous?

[Tornado]

But that one person had to be pretty loud to get 20 complaining about him, otherwise there would've been much less who would've bothered to complain.

There would've been complaints either way, but it takes a lot (or the right strings pulled, trivial mess, whatever term floats your boat) to have 20 people get onto one person.

That isn't true at all. And what we have seen with Sonic 4 is pretty much the antithesis of that, in fact. Here's roughly how the eye-color saga has gone down to date:

1. A small minority complains about something trivial (Sonic's eyes) when Needlemouse is leaked. It is ignored, because they've been doing so for years at this point.
   
2. The complaining gets slightly fiercer when the game is announced as Sonic 4. It is still pretty much ignored.
   
3. The complaining pretty much extinguishes itself as more and more information is leaked for people to more validly complain about (rehashes or homing attack or whatever your poison is).
   
4. Self-important assholes (Jim Sterling is a pretty good example, so I'll use any one of the half dozen or so articles he wrote about it) latch onto the eye-color nonsense long after everyone stopped talking about it seriously as being a pretty good example of a fandom having crazy elements and being full of shit.
   
5. These trivial complaints that everyone mostly ignored when they were brought up are extrapolated onto the entire fanbase by outsiders (and one of Sterling's articles did exactly that). It also gives the people who normally complain about complainers anyways something to cheer about (similar to how people who listen to Rush cheer whenever something akin to "dumb liberals" is said. There is a term for it that I can't remember.). Said complainers play up the article as proof of how they are the only sane people in the fanbase, because they have invariably been saying that for years.
   
6. The entire Sonic fanbase starts infighting over something that was originally never a real issue in the first place. The self-important assholes from step 4 then proceed to write about how the fanbase is crazy for fighting over anything that is discussed, which makes the problem worse.
   

Sonic's eye color was never a real talking point about this game. It was never even a loud minority. It was something that was pretty much ignored until kicking the shit out of that minority became the popular thing to do, upon which it was exaggerated beyond recognition and demonized. And it required outside sources for that to start happening.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Tornado

[MrROBOTO1988]

I think the only reason Jim Sterling's articles actually get a good cheer from people are because the people cheering were always so tired of hearing these trivial complaints. If it was a moot issue, why would anybody have reacted positively to Sterling's articles in the first place? No matter how you see it, trivial complaints were prevalent and still are prevalent. Again, the most recent I experienced was a debate about Sonic's brow not even a week ago.

[Tornado]

I think the only reason Jim Sterling's articles actually get a good cheer from people are because the people cheering were always so tired of hearing these trivial complaints.

Which is something that I said exactly, so I'm not sure why you are acting as if I'm saying otherwise.

If it was a moot issue, why would anybody have reacted positively to Sterling's articles in the first place?

Because there has been fighting over every facet of Sonic 4 in the Sonic fanbase since Needlemouse was first announced, and people in and outside the fanbase were getting sick of it. It is far easier to label complaints as trivial, regardless of what they actually are, than to actually debate them. The Sterling articles gave people a way to do so without drawing much ire from the initial complainer, because at that point the initial complainer has been labeled as being an idiot.

No matter how you see it, trivial complaints were prevalent and still are prevalent. Again, the most recent I experienced was a debate about Sonic's brow not even a week ago.

Which is all well and good, but minor outlying opinions don't become loud minorities automatically, nor does it mean that they can be extrapolated to mean "every complaint anyone has." Eye color was a dead issue as far as Sonic 4 goes. The same people complained about it that complain about it in every game. It was never a loud minority any more than any other opinion on the Sonic franchise is, and all of the complaining about the complainers that we are seeing now is based on some form of exaggerated portion of the fanbase that never existed in the first place.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic's eye color was never a real talking point about this game. It was never even a loud minority. It was something that was pretty much ignored until kicking the shit out of that minority became the popular thing to do, upon which it was exaggerated beyond recognition and demonized. And it required outside sources for that to start happening.

So rather than it being a voice from within the fanbase, it is more of the outside influence that causes those inside to blow things out of proportion? (Feel free to correct me if I'm still not understanding you )

I guess that does make sense, seeing as how a lot of the drama does tend to come from the outside outlets rather than those from inside. And given how they tend to exaggerate things, and their bigger influence on a larger population of people, it only adds to the fire as those who feel insulted start arming up while those who feel supported try to tear things down even further.

[Tornado]

So rather than it being a voice from within the fanbase, it is more of the outside influence that causes those inside to blow things out of proportion? (Feel free to correct me if I'm still not understanding you )

Its both. Complaining about Sonic's eyes has likely been happening since 1998, and I can personally attest to seeing it since at least 2004. But those complaints were almost always merely minor talking points from a small portion of the fanbase. With Sonic 4, those complaints got a bit louder and a bit more widespread, as well (though I wouldn't say without good reason), but that was the extent of the change.

And then Sterling wrote those idiotic articles, which gave people both an excuse and a method to vent off on those who had been complaining for all those years. This caused what was in reality a minor point of contention among a select few (usually only to the extent of "I wish Sonic didn't have green eyes in this game") to be blown up into "retrofags won't buy Sonic 4 because of green eyes," which is convenient enough to be used to also say "retrofags won't buy Sonic 4 because of homing attack" or "retrofags won't buy Sonic 4 because of rehash" or whatever else the complaining about complaining people want to say.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Tornado

[MrROBOTO1988]

Which is something that I said exactly, so I'm not sure why you are acting as if I'm saying otherwise.

We're using it for different points. As far as I can tell, you are trying to say that not many people were complaining about trivial points about sonic's appearance. I'm trying to say that that is false. Here's why using reverse deduction logic:

Jim Sterling's article comes out saying how ridiculous it is that people complain about green eyes (or something like that) => There is a strong positive reaction to said article from people => People react positively because they are so tired of seeing these complaints => People are so tired of seeing these complaints because they see them a lot => People see them a lot because they are coming from a large source OR a very vocal/loud/passionate source

And this is pretty much exactly what I saw upon joining the message board. I was so psyched for Sonic 4 that I wanted to talk about it with other people who were psyched, and I got a lot of my news from sonic stadium, so I join the sonic stadium message boards. Upon joining though, I am actually quite shocked to see sooooooo many complaints about the game, and let me tell you, A LOT of them were about aesthetic properties that affect the game itself very little. I did indeed see green eye complaints, I saw running animation complaints, I saw "Bring Classic Sonic Back!!!!!!!" sorts of complaints, and that's just the icing on the cake.

It is far easier to label complaints as trivial, regardless of what they actually are, than to actually debate them.

By all means, let's please debate the pros and cons of green eyes and other aesthetics of Sonic's appearance, and see if it turns into anything different

Eye color was a dead issue as far as Sonic 4 goes.

Perhaps as a standalone issue. But it is part of the package of Modern Sonic that so many people were vehement about. People were so upset to see that Modern Sonic was in Sonic 4, when it really makes no difference.

[Tornado]

I already touched on the rest of what you said in my last post, so I'll only look at one portion of this:

By all means, let's please debate the pros and cons of green eyes and other aesthetics of Sonic's appearance, and see if it turns into anything different

My point was that you can't label anything as trivial in the Sonic fanbase without labeling yourself as a hypocrite in 10 foot tall letters. There is no prevailing majority opinion for anything in this franchise, and that includes aesthetics, so they very much do make a difference.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Tornado

[MrROBOTO1988]

I already touched on the rest of what you said in my last post, so I'll only look at one portion of this:

No, you really didn't....you havent really listened at all when I'm saying that the people complaining about these things was a much larger group than you will care to admit. That was the bulk of my last post, and you havent touched on any of that.

There is no prevailing majority opinion for anything in this franchise, and that includes aesthetics, so they very much do make a difference.

You're right, many people care about aeshtetics, myself included. BUT, and I probably should have specified earlier, they make no difference whatsoever to gameplay, which is what really made Sonic a winner back in the early 90s. So sonic being the modern sonic in sonic 4 will not affect how good or bad a game sonic 4 turns out to be, but so many people were writing the game off based solely on these aesthetics. Sorry i didn't really specify. They may make a difference to people as far as opinions or nostalgia go, but they really have no impact on what truly matters in a game: The gameplay itself.

[Solid SOAP]

soooo, if it takes after every 2D Sonic game, why is it still "noooooot wooooooooorrrrrrthy" of the name Sonic 4? why should Sonic 4 ONLY take after the classics, ESPECIALLY when there's been 16 years of Sonic games since the classics?? Who are you to say it's not worthy of that name?

Because if it's supposed to be a sequel to the classic games, I'd suspect it'd be more like the classic games than anything else. What's with the attitude, it's just my opinion bronik, it still looks like a good game to me and I couldn't give less a shit about the name, but I'm just saying it's mildly misleading. Sonic 4 looks pretty goddamn fun to me, and I'll likely buy it on release if it's supposed to be good, I'm just a little disappointed it doesn't share as much with the classic titles as they originally hinted it would.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Solid SOAP

[MrROBOTO1988]

Because if it's supposed to be a sequel to the classic games, I'd suspect it'd be more like the classic games than anything else. What's with the attitude, it's just my opinion bronik, it still looks like a good game to me and I couldn't give less a shit about the name, but I'm just saying it's mildly misleading. Sonic 4 looks pretty goddamn fun to me, and I'll likely buy it on release if it's supposed to be good, I'm just a little disappointed it doesn't share as much with the classic titles as they originally hinted it would.

Sorry for the 'tude, I was out of line. But I would say that Sonic 4 DOES resemble the classics more than anything else, even though they have bits that are inspired by the modern games. I can't look at any screenshot or video without thinking, "wow, this looks like a classic Sonic game."

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

My point was that you can't label anything as trivial in the Sonic fanbase without labeling yourself as a hypocrite in 10 foot tall letters. There is no prevailing majority opinion for anything in this franchise, and that includes aesthetics, so they very much do make a difference.

I would be inclined to agree is no majority opinion for anything, however, I do find it somewhat extreme to place so much value on really small matters. Such as Eggman's name for example, while I can understand that people have preferences in using Robotnik over Eggman, fussing about how Sonic Team is forcing them to the villian Eggman is a little out of proportion when people know both names refer to the same character. That isn't something that actually makes much of a difference, and it can easily be resolved by simply calling him by what they prefer when generally every person who knows about the franchise pictures the same character no matter which name is used.

And you certainly wouldn't say that the whole Ryan vs. Drummond VA thing back in the past made that much of a difference in regards to which one of the two actually voiced the character.

Compared to the whole eye color arguments we've had, those kind of aesthetics are too small to make that big of a difference, and you don't even need to throw in the gameplay's significance to see that.

Edited April 7, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Solid SOAP]

Oh no, visually, it looks exactly how a Sonic game should look like with HD visuals, albeit with a new looking Sonic. However, Sonic accelerates way too fast, and stuff like the homing attack and overuse of speed-pads remind me more of an Advance or Rush game than a classic Sonic game. Never the less, it does look fun, and its extremely refreshing to see another Sonic game done in a more classic style than usual.

[Rusty Spy]

Underneath the speed pads(which are overused, but not in unnecessary spots, btw) and the homing attack, the rest, i.e the actual level design looks like a genuine classic Sonic game.

[SuperStingray]

What then is it that makes the fanbase ridiculous?

You know what makes this fanbase ridiculous? That we think it's so ridiculous.

Lately I've realized that all fanbases are incredibly flawed and looking at your own as the worst is just a cheap defense mechanism to make you feel like your opinions aren't just another meaningless drop in a big, messed up pool. But you know what? Complaining about complaining is still complaining. You see dissent about changing series everywhere. Sonic is just a tough case because his series is so quick to jump from one paradigm and demographic to the next, yet its defined many people's childhoods in radically different ways. I don't know who's to blame for the whole wide range of shit Sonic's seen and been through. I don't know how Sega works or how Sonic Team thinks. And you know what? I don't give a damn. This series isn't going to disappear anytime soon, nor is the fanbase with all its "fanboys, fangirls, elitists, furries and purists" that we oh-so love to hate. But if we want to see this series improve, trying to make its following look better would be a nice start.

Edited April 7, 2010 by SuperStingray