DDR: Sonic The Hedgehog?

[Rabbid A]

Mario himself has already been there and done that in his GC era. Disney also has several DDR titles, and hell, there are even WinX Club and Strawberry Shortcake edition!

So, why is that our break-dancing, pop genre loving hedgehog never does, when there's obviously so many songs and stage music available? Unless SEGA has problems cooperating with Konami?

Now THAT's one genre of Sonic game I've been waiting for, since AGES.

[Doctor MK]

DDR Sonic... this could actually work, if they did it properly!

I can imagine dancing around to "Super Sonic Racing" already

Of course, there'll need to be some sort of story shoehorned in there - Eggman has organised the EX Dance Tournament and the winner shall receive the Chaos Emeralds! It's not just a dance contest, but a SPECIAL dance contest to see who's the grooviest!

[Blacklightning]

Of course, there'll need to be some sort of story shoehorned in there

Umm, no there won't. If ASR didn't need an excuse plot then I fail to see why a dancing game of all things needs one.

[Doctor MK]

Umm, no there won't. If ASR didn't need an excuse plot then I fail to see why a dancing game of all things needs one.

I was being sarcastic

[SuperLink]

Umm, no there won't. If ASR didn't need an excuse plot then I fail to see why a dancing game of all things needs one.

This, the fact that DDR Mario had as much story as a mainseries Mario game made it all the more embarrassing.

Could work, but everyone would probably hate it (while conveniently forgetting Mario's version ever happened as usual)

[Blacklightning]

I was being sarcastic

Gah, with all the absolute stupidity that's been going around here lately, it's hard to tell who's being serious anymore.

Gameplay-wise there's no real denying that this could work well, and lord knows we can't have enough kickass Sonic remixes out there (myself, I've been dying to hear an official Doomsday remix for quite some time). My only real concern is that, well... it's just not what anyone wants out of the franchise right now. This kind of thing personally, I'd save for a time when Sonic games are in a more stable state as far as the mainstream series is concerned.

And frankly, are DDR games even in style anymore? Surely there are other rhythm-genre alternatives to work with. Sonic Guitar Hero? Sonic Ouedan? Sonic Lumines?

[Rabbid A]

Gah, with all the absolute stupidity that's been going around here lately, it's hard to tell who's being serious anymore.

Gameplay-wise there's no real denying that this could work well, and lord knows we can't have enough kickass Sonic remixes out there (myself, I've been dying to hear an official Doomsday remix for quite some time). My only real concern is that, well... it's just not what anyone wants out of the franchise right now. This kind of thing personally, I'd save for a time when Sonic games are in a more stable state as far as the mainstream series is concerned.

And frankly, are DDR games even in style anymore? Surely there are other rhythm-genre alternatives to work with. Sonic Guitar Hero? Sonic Ouedan? Sonic Lumines?

Ouedan? Luminee? .. I admit I can't keep up with the music games people play today, but the variation's alienating me @_@

And sure DDR's in style. Maybe. I mean, they just recently released a something-year anniversary version on Wii, a Balace Board compatible title and Hottest Party 3 last winter. FYI, WinX Club edition came last year too (..yeah, I own a copy <<)

Suggestions of a DDR Sonic floats on the net a few years after SA1. Don't keep us waiting anymore SEGA D:

Edited April 4, 2010 by FreeloadeR

[Nemain]

Am I the only one who instantly got an image of people spamming the shit out of a DDR machine Max300 style to Flying Battery Zone Act 2?

Blacklightning: Yes, DDR is still in favour. Perhaps it has paled a little in comparison to the Guitar whatever games, but as a longstanding member I can tell you the fanbase is still there. There was a new arcade mix called DDRX released just last year, with a follow up planned very soon. Additionally Pump it up Pro 2 is due out soon as well. Rhythm games are certainly not dead!

The Sonic franchise certainly has the music to make a game work. What sprung to mind for me immediately was the techno remix of Marble Garden Zone used at the end of Sonic Shorts 3. A lot of the older songs lend themselves nicely to dance remixes and the newer rocky songs would give the soundtrack a good diversity. The only issue I have is how closely it would follow Mario mix in order to please all players. As fun as dancing to Sonic songs would be, a console mix will inevitably be tailored to be too easy for people who play in the arcades on Expert/Heavy mode and may have erratic difficulty jumps. Mario mix was exactly that with only one song that was anywhere near hard and was far too big a jump in difficulty for a new player to ever beat. The Disney ones were actually really well made, but again didn't have the extreme end of the difficulty scale.

On the other hand... If you do include very hard songs, a soft mat isn't going to cut it. This could be a very big issue for the hardest level songs and you will need a metal dance mat. You have to be careful with the adaptors for them as if you get a bog standard one you get cross polar issues with the mat and thus cannot hit certain combinations of arrows, rendering the mat useless. I play at difficulty 10 on DDR, 16-17 on DDRX, 11-12 on In The Groove and 11-12 on Pump Pro and a soft mat just doesn't cut it past level 8-9.

TL;DR... A Sonic DDR game will likely be great fun if you are new to the series, but if you're an experienced player you may as well get Stepmania and make your own Sonic themed stepfiles - That's what I do!

[Double Agent Motobug]

Ahaha, If Sonic was to tie in with any kind of music game, I'd opt for Sonic Guitar Hero, since it's the most popular music game in recent history. It'd print money! Though, If I were in SEGA's shoes, I'd think about going for a deal with Harmonix for a Rock Band version instead, seeing as Activision is really killing GH. Heh...

However, DDR would be a cool thing, too. I imagine that later on, some songs would need you to run in place at super sonic speed. xDD

[Blacklightning]

Ouedan? Luminee?

Just for the record.

And sure DDR's in style. Maybe. I mean, they just recently released a something-year anniversary version on Wii, a Balace Board compatible title and Hottest Party 3 last winter. FYI, WinX Club edition came last year too (..yeah, I own a copy <<)

Blacklightning: Yes, DDR is still in favour. Perhaps it has paled a little in comparison to the Guitar whatever games, but as a longstanding member I can tell you the fanbase is still there. There was a new arcade mix called DDRX released just last year, with a follow up planned very soon. Additionally Pump it up Pro 2 is due out soon as well. Rhythm games are certainly not dead!

Fair enough. I haven't seen head or tail of the newer releases - maybe it's because I haven't been to arcades in a while. I'll take your words for it.

The only issue I have is how closely it would follow Mario mix in order to please all players. As fun as dancing to Sonic songs would be, a console mix will inevitably be tailored to be too easy for people who play in the arcades on Expert/Heavy mode and may have erratic difficulty jumps. Mario mix was exactly that with only one song that was anywhere near hard and was far too big a jump in difficulty for a new player to ever beat. The Disney ones were actually really well made, but again didn't have the extreme end of the difficulty scale.

It can't really be that hard to appeal to both crowds, especially considering we already have difficulty modes for it. Just have "easy/normal" for the casuals and standing Sonic fans, and "holy crap my legs are jackhammers" difficulty for people who just like DDR games in general. If both seems easier or harder than it ought to be, well obviously somebody's done it wrong.

On the other hand... If you do include very hard songs, a soft mat isn't going to cut it. This could be a very big issue for the hardest level songs and you will need a metal dance mat. You have to be careful with the adaptors for them as if you get a bog standard one you get cross polar issues with the mat and thus cannot hit certain combinations of arrows, rendering the mat useless. I play at difficulty 10 on DDR, 16-17 on DDRX, 11-12 on In The Groove and 11-12 on Pump Pro and a soft mat just doesn't cut it past level 8-9.

For the first time in a while, Natal comes to mind. Have a coloured mat that doesn't even have receivers in it, and simply have the camera track your feet as they touch the coloured areas. The existing lag for Natal could be a slight problem, but not enough that you couldn't still make a game out of it. And if that doesn't work, there's always Move and Eyetoy.

TL;DR... A Sonic DDR game will likely be great fun if you are new to the series, but if you're an experienced player you may as well get Stepmania and make your own Sonic themed stepfiles - That's what I do!

That's the first thing I thought of, and I've already seen a couple. Frankly, most of them are crap. Of course, if you've seen examples that aren't covers of the original chiptunes, be my guest.

[Nemain]

It can't really be that hard to appeal to both crowds, especially considering we already have difficulty modes for it. Just have "easy/normal" for the casuals and standing Sonic fans, and "holy crap my legs are jackhammers" difficulty for people who just like DDR games in general. If both seems easier or harder than it ought to be, well obviously somebody's done it wrong.

Yes there are different difficulty levels for each song, but what I was trying to say about Mario mix was that even with these different levels it was still far too easy and they did get it wrong. On a scale of 10 every song on the hardest difficulty was a 6, MAYBE an easy 7... All except one, which was a moderate 9. That's far too big a jump for a casual player. I fear a Sonic based console mix would fall into the same trap of trying to please everyone but not quite fulfilling those who play and get good.

For the first time in a while, Natal comes to mind. Have a coloured mat that doesn't even have receivers in it, and simply have the camera track your feet as they touch the coloured areas. The existing lag for Natal could be a slight problem, but not enough that you couldn't still make a game out of it. And if that doesn't work, there's always Move and Eyetoy.

A very good idea, hats off to you there. The lag does worry me for the harder songs but that does make up for the shortcomings of not having a metal dance pad AND allows for doubles/versus play. The only thing that I can fault you on is the lack of a bar for a player to lean on, but who is to say that could not be included as a peripheral? Maybe you could just use a chair! Certainly not expensive to produce that part of a pad. The whole movement thing could allow for development of games more like Para Para or EZ2Dancer as well, but I won't go there!

That's the first thing I thought of, and I've already seen a couple. Frankly, most of them are crap. Of course, if you've seen examples that aren't covers of the original chiptunes, be my guest.

Most are crap because it takes a lot of practise and time to get good at making stepfiles and learning what steps flow nicely and what really don't. I'm certainly no expert either but you get better as you try. The fundamentals of a good stepfile are good syncing and good step patterns. If you don't have both of those the stepfile will fail, and sadly new step artists frequently fall into the latter trap. Inversely the song could be utter crap but the stepfile technically amazing because of the clever work of the maker, and I can think of many official songs where this is the case.

Of course you do get songs that have both good syncing and steps AND are great songs in themselves, like So Deep. Man, I miss that song.

[Blacklightning]

A very good idea, hats off to you there. The lag does worry me for the harder songs but that does make up for the shortcomings of not having a metal dance pad AND allows for doubles/versus play. The only thing that I can fault you on is the lack of a bar for a player to lean on, but who is to say that could not be included as a peripheral? Maybe you could just use a chair! Certainly not expensive to produce that part of a pad. The whole movement thing could allow for development of games more like Para Para or EZ2Dancer as well, but I won't go there!

As far as I can see, the lag can be compensated for. As long as the lag itself is consistent, you can still rewind the reaction time back a bit to correspond closer to the time of the actual beat, a little after it actually happens. Sure, you'd have the disadvantage of not learning whether you missed a beat until slightly after it passes, but hey, at least it'd be somewhat functional. And again, there's no question about Move's response times yet, so that's always a good alternative as well as a possibility for multi-console porting.

But I digress, I'm starting to step outside my territory here. Perhaps it's time I left the subject be for now.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Blacklightning

[Double Agent Motobug]

Most are crap because it takes a lot of practise and time to get good at making stepfiles and learning what steps flow nicely and what really don't. I'm certainly no expert either but you get better as you try. The fundamentals of a good stepfile are good syncing and good step patterns. If you don't have both of those the stepfile will fail, and sadly new step artists frequently fall into the latter trap. Inversely the song could be utter crap but the stepfile technically amazing because of the clever work of the maker, and I can think of many official songs where this is the case.

Agreed. It's the exact same with making custom songs in Guitar Hero or Rockband. It takes a lot more time and effort than the normal player might think. Infact, a lot of people still believe that you just chuck in a .MIDI and that the game auto-generates everything for you. xD;; Ah well. I'm glad there's someone else as adept in Rhythm Game authoring here. ^^

[thesketchsector]

This came to mind.

[JezMM]

I would pay serious money for "Sonic Music", that included both Guitar Hero for the rock tracks and DDR for the techno tracks - especially if there was some new material made for each via remixes of the classic tracks to bring them up to modern day production values.

EDIT: Also includes DK Bongos compatibility for the more worldly music from Adventure, 2006 and Unleashed.

Edited April 4, 2010 by JezMM

[KittyNakajima]

As long as they don't make a Sonic version of DDR with the DDR X interface, I'll be damn glad to have it. DDR X's arcade models have the worst touch sensitivity I have ever seen - and I'm an Intermediate/Trick/Standard whatever player. :C

If that never happens, there's always Stepmania where people have already made simfiles to a whole bunch of Sonic songs.

[azoo]

I wouldn't wanna play that. Sonic would be breakdancing too fast for the game to even be playable!

[JezMM]

I wouldn't wanna play that. Sonic would be breakdancing too fast for the game to even be playable!

Ha, that'd be a fun idea for difficulty levels.

"Eggman" - "Amy" - "Tails" - "Shadow" - "Sonic" - "Super Sonic"

Very Easy - Easy - Normal - Hard - Very Hard - EXTREEEEME or whatever.

[Nemain]

As long as they don't make a Sonic version of DDR with the DDR X interface, I'll be damn glad to have it. DDR X's arcade models have the worst touch sensitivity I have ever seen - and I'm an Intermediate/Trick/Standard whatever player. :C

If that never happens, there's always Stepmania where people have already made simfiles to a whole bunch of Sonic songs.

I think it speaks volumes that a newer player already notices the difference in sensitivity, and I agree with you totally! The American/European DDRX machines really are that bad. The game itself is alright, but I prefer Extreme's timing. The sensitivity issues are the Betson cabs they use outside Japan, they're really poorly made with much fewer sensors and notable screen lag compared to the older mixes because the screen is LCD. The Japanese DDRX machines are perfect. London had the Japanese beta machine before (for some crazy reason) getting a Betson instead. WHYYYYYY.

Blacklightning: Though the lag could be manageable and consistent using movement based systems (and I would just deal with it and get used to it), trust me when I say you'd get the hardcore players going BAWWWWWW over it and bitching about it being the worst mix ever. It happens every time DDR changes its timing formula, let alone for a game that has lag making you step early. To be fair DDR's timing is so tight anyone who's played a while would notice the lag fairly quick. I imagine the programmers would have to find a way to compensate, perhaps by working out the offset and adjusting the timing for movement based input over pad based.

Aptiva: Haha, high five my friend! We all had to start somewhere though... I know I have a fair few mediocre files from when I first started learning to sync. xP

Also, heck yes newer Sonic songs would work on GH!

EDIT: JezMM - Genius idea for naming difficulties! What about mods like adding Asterons instead of the mines/shock arrows that DDR/ITG use? xD

Edited April 4, 2010 by Reala

[JezMM]

Oh, and obviously the final, unlockable, ridiculously impossibly fast breakdancing difficulty would be "Big".

Edited April 4, 2010 by JezMM

[EuroMIX]

Most of these were done ages ago. I also have edited mp3's of other songs like Unknown From M.E. not integrated into Stepmania yet and a couple of songs edited with lyrics/videos/some steps but not done enough to show. It also doesn't help that my PC sucks at recording with Fraps.

As a long-time lover of both Sonic AND DDR I've always somewhat longed for the two to be combined. Sonic has some awesome music which would work perfectly in DDR and even Guitar Hero.

"DDR: Sonic Mix" was my pet project designed to make this dream a reality, it just never really got very far.

[Nemain]

"DDR: Sonic Mix" was my pet project designed to make this dream a reality, it just never really got very far.

Heh, my pet project was "DDR: Somerset mix". No surprise for guessing what band featured rather heavily there.

Your simfiles are pretty good, by the way. Nice job! I'm impressed by your use of gentle crossovers in Green Hill Zone to get people used to doing them at that level. I also see spin potential there! I'd love to add Heavy steps to the Green Hill Zone remix, it's just crying out for some gallops in time with the main tune. Do you have the simfile still, and would you mind if I did this? We should definitely continue this project of yours, you've made such headway it'd be a shame to leave it on the sideline.

[EuroMIX]

Heh, my pet project was "DDR: Somerset mix". No surprise for guessing what band featured rather heavily there.

Your simfiles are pretty good, by the way. Nice job! I'm impressed by your use of gentle crossovers in Green Hill Zone to get people used to doing them at that level. I also see spin potential there! I'd love to add Heavy steps to the Green Hill Zone remix, it's just crying out for some gallops in time with the main tune. Do you have the simfile still, and would you mind if I did this? We should definitely continue this project of yours, you've made such headway it'd be a shame to leave it on the sideline.

I am somewhat honoured that you think so highly of the very limited amount of what I've done. Looking back I think that I may have overdone the freezes towards the end there but I believe that Basic should still be somewhat challenging and not super duper easy like how Mario Mix made it; beginner is for beginners and each new difficulty should reflect the extra challenge expected of players. Just a shame that I kinda suck at anything beyond Difficult; I'm not a big Expert player so I'm not the best at making steps for that difficulty.

To be frank, I think that this is a project which would more or less require a small team to create a hefty pack of 70 or so songs for it. I did all the current stuff alone mostly because I'm really obsessive when it comes to projects that I put my heart into. If I have my mind set on a specific plan or idea I like to stick to it and I was always fearful of trusting anyone else in case our ideas clashed.

The concept of the game was celebrating Sonic's history through his memorable music, starting with the old stuff possibly remixed to fit the game and working towards his more modern tracks. In the story mode each new "zone" would have four or five tracks from that game or era and completing certain tasks would unlock the boss tunes that would be designed to be harder. The main issue I faced was which songs to pick as some games/eras has more great songs than others.

I did start trying to write a setlist but I lost it when I switched to my newest operating system but I do remember most of it anyway.

[Nemain]

I am somewhat honoured that you think so highly of the very limited amount of what I've done. Looking back I think that I may have overdone the freezes towards the end there but I believe that Basic should still be somewhat challenging and not super duper easy like how Mario Mix made it; beginner is for beginners and each new difficulty should reflect the extra challenge expected of players. Just a shame that I kinda suck at anything beyond Difficult; I'm not a big Expert player so I'm not the best at making steps for that difficulty.

To be frank, I think that this is a project which would more or less require a small team to create a hefty pack of 70 or so songs for it. I did all the current stuff alone mostly because I'm really obsessive when it comes to projects that I put my heart into. If I have my mind set on a specific plan or idea I like to stick to it and I was always fearful of trusting anyone else in case our ideas clashed.

The concept of the game was celebrating Sonic's history through his memorable music, starting with the old stuff possibly remixed to fit the game and working towards his more modern tracks. In the story mode each new "zone" would have four or five tracks from that game or era and completing certain tasks would unlock the boss tunes that would be designed to be harder. The main issue I faced was which songs to pick as some games/eras has more great songs than others.

I did start trying to write a setlist but I lost it when I switched to my newest operating system but I do remember most of it anyway.

Don't put yourself down about the flaws - Everyone has to start somewhere! What was important is despite the freeze heavy nature your steps flowed and made sense. Your syncing seemed fine across all three songs as well from what I inferred past the lag, but one thing to note is that some songs have a slightly variable BPM (most non-synth songs will have variable BPM due to the nature of human error) and the Solaris song may need a slight resync of a few BPM for a few seconds. It's nothing huge at all, a few arrows after the first freeze sound a tiny bit out to me according to Assist Tick. That's my only niggle though, and it's VERY slight (the difference between a Marvellous and a Great, really). Stepwise you are right, each difficulty should bring something new to the player, be it complexity of steps or increased intensity. You were introducing complexities that a new player could choose to do or not to do at that speed, which is really good. Slow crossovers are easily performed normally for those that do not see the pattern with no added difficulty, but for those that want to try them properly they are there and are slow enough to practise to build up confidence.

I really like your Story mode idea. That allows coverage of many eras of Sonic songs in the same game/pack, and would work for a real release too. I understand as a personal project you may fear outside interaction for fear of headbutting between people along the way, but equally the right people can only help your project further by adding ideas and levels that you would not feel able to do justice to, such as the harder difficulty steps. I'd be more than happy to help you with Heavy/Oni steps as I play at that level but I would not want to interfere with your zone idea as that's definitely your baby and you know best how that will work. Ironically I cannot write decent easier simfiles as my mind just doesn't work at that level! If you do have an interest in restarting this project, count me in for helping. I imagine it'd be more than just people here who would love to see such a pack get finished!

May I ask what a few of your planned setlists were?

Edited April 4, 2010 by Reala

[SuperStingray]

If anything about Sonic has kept strong over the years, it's the music. A rhythm game would work nicely for Sonic. And failing that, I finally have a chance to post this old picture.