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Blazey Firekitty

Hating Eggman

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I'm going to be bashed to eternity for this... but I wouldn't mind old Ivo doing totally horrid things.

No, the bouncy egg man wouldn't start touching up young girl rabbits in suggestive ways, that's no good, just maybe killing off some characters that we grow to like/hate/whatever-as-long-as-they're-important every now and then, and maybe successfully bombing some things. Or rather, having a few victories in battles as long as Sonic (and Tails) wins the war. The Adventure series did this well, with Robotnik using a missile to (try to) blow up Station Square and later mess up the moon. Unleashed kind of failed in this - he did a good job in breaking the planet, but it was short-lived courtesy of NO ONE CARING. Everyone just got along with their lives, not minding that the world just got knocked the f*** out. They only started worrying when Dark Gaia showed up (no surprise there SEGA), but still... what if the Toads happily continued shopping in Toad Town as they were being frozen by Bowser's Doomships? How about if everyone skipped along the yellow brick road as Giygas and Lavos suddenly decided to fuse together and make a deal with Ganondorf and Kefka? You know s***'s getting bad, but you don't care, because goddamn you're not going to miss that Ducktales episode again.

Of course he couldn't just kill random dudes he doesn't know (careful doctor - you'll anger a random hedgehog fancharacter for years to come if you do that), but at the same time I like to think that it's not so much "Innocent citizens shouldn't be harmed" but rather "Why kill one useless person when I can just commit genocide to five million useless people at the same time?" He needs room for his goddamn robots. Move.

Besides, there's plenty of live beings elsewhere. They can be his slaves. Though if that was you, you'd probably be better off if you died. Robotnik's demands are not to be taken lightly. Sorry for giving you slave labor and exilement son, you were stupid enough to think the worst you had to do were foot massages.

I don't understand why people always claim that making Robotnik "too evil" would transform him into his SatAM incarnation instantly. As if he would be exactly like that. Has no one heard of Joker? Robotnik should be more like him - both wacky and formidable. The type of person that makes a statement of planning to do something that sounds stupid and then proceeds to work and/or make perfect sense. Unlike the Joker though, and I know Mechano won't like this, Robotnik doesn't see the "rivalry" between him and Sonic as a "game" - he actually wants hedgehog meat for dinner tonight (for the slow ones: hedgehog good when dead). Anti-villains were never really my taste to be honest - at least not for the main villain of the series. Or if your name was Team Rocket. I'm fine with Knuckles and Shadow and Nack and guys like that being rivals and "worthy" foes and such, but Robotnik? Sonic can go ahead and see it as whatever, but Robotnik isn't a rival - he's a villain. He's not equal - he's superior. This would also go regarding of what he does with "teams" - he's the king of them, not a member of them. Unless it's some secret evil cult and he plans to overthrow it with epic lip-sealing skills, in which case by all means go ahead.

Also, instead of jokes, Robotnik uses pingas. (And robots.)

Judge me all you want - I was also never fond of the fact that Bowser always kidnaps Princess Peach because he loves her. At least not when it's "MARRY ME AWESOME COOL GUY STUPIDITY I DON'T KNOW THIS FANCY MONOCLE RATHER EVIL-LOOKING GUY BUT HE'S SETTING US UP FOR A WEDDING AND THAT'S KINDA COOL I GUESS" SPM-like stuff. I'm okay with "Creepy Obsession Sounds Like Hunchback of Notre Dame Only Without Death Choice" like in Galaxy. That might be an exaggeration.

Anyways, back to Robotnik - it's all good to keep a funny villain... well, funny, but you have to (along with just doing your usual stuff like making enemies and hard-to-beat boss robots and world domination plots and not getting screwed over by monsters and traitors) make him do vile and moral event horizon-destroying things in order to keep his credibility as a villain up and running, as well as maintaining the fact that, yes, this is indeed a bad guy. Making speeches about how it's not cool to hurt people to more "better" villains doesn't really do great things for you. It just makes you laughable. And not in the ideal Joker-esque way - just plain laughably pathetic. Especially when even the resident Evil Dark Lord Genericness VIII of No Personality (aka: Dark Oak) is laughing at you deep inside. In fact, I'd wager that's a deleted Sonic X scene - of Dark Oak Falcon Punching the s*** out of Robotnik for making such a bulls*** statement. I guess that means I can have tea with Hitler, because hey, he must have some good in him.

All in all, he should be a person who's mere insignia strikes fear in you. Even if it looks absolutely ridiculous. More points if the ridiculous-ness just makes it more scarier.

Also, take notes from Mr. Xanatos of Gargoyles fame in the ways of both gambits and speed-chessing. And try wearing a lab coat. A grey one. With red cuffs. And a red "R" on the back. Kickass.

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does nothing to help out against Metal (despite doing quite well at blasting his way through the ARK in the previous game),

I presume this is because Metal Sonic conquering the world could have actually worked in his favor. Especially if he killed Sonic in the process. Sure, he's out of control and needs to be tamed, hence the helping out the Sonic Heroes, but if they should fall by the wayside, that's less problems for him.

With that factor in mind, and then taking in what happens between Eggman and Metal Sonic after the game, it was a situation of whoever loses, Eggman wins.

when it gets to the point that it'd be a twist if Eggman actually was the final boss, you know you've done something wrong.

You are aware this has actually happened right =P (unless that was the whole point) Also are we disregarding the first and second Advances, where Eggman stayed the main throughout?

It left a bitter taste in my mouth when Archie Sonic seemed to have remorse when Archie Eggman went nuts. This sicko mass murdered Mobians in their thousands and even slaughtered other Overlanders.

For someone who claims to have such a fondness for Sonic, this is a rather surprising statement. Especially given that Archie Comic's Sonic is becoming more and more like Sonic Team's Sonic with each issue. Either way, you should know that for Sonic to not do so would be out of character for him, and that's with just about every incarnation of the character there's been.

Now as for the topic, I think Archie Comic's current interpretation of the Doctor does it right. While he's not all uber evil like his StH TV self, he does do generally heinous things, and thus is a credible threat, while still being a bit of a goofball. After all, he's got leveling the former hero base under his belt, as well as exterminating a truckload of filler characters for fuel. It's enough to get the point across that if Eggman wins, bad crap WILL happen.

Sonic Team's Eggman doesn't quite have that impact right now. At least not without having to really think about it for a second. It doesn't help that he keeps getting upstaged by everything.

In fact, Eggman Nega is currently a FAR more credible threat than Sonic Team's Eggman is. If Nega wins, the entire multiverse could practically get screwed in the butt.

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For someone who claims to have such a fondness for Sonic, this is a rather surprising statement. Especially given that Archie Comic's Sonic is becoming more and more like Sonic Team's Sonic with each issue. Either way, you should know that for Sonic to not do so would be out of character for him, and that's with just about every incarnation of the character there's been.

For someone whose entire family was so badly wronged, heck, whose entire people have been so wronged as well as the planet as a whole by the evil of this man, I found it thouroughly unconvincing and like the epitome of injustice that he got paid sympathies.

Game Sonic and/or most other Sonic's in various canon have never had their lives, their loved ones, their people, his planet besmirched by their respective incarnation of the Eggman/Robotnik so much as Archie Sonic did by Robotnik Prime and his successor, Robo-Robotnik. Ok, Fleetway Robotnik was one mean SOB but he got thrown in a mental asylum right?

Archie Eggman deserves not one iota of compassion, be it from Archie Sonic or anyone else. It feels so wrong for one who claims to fight in the name of justice and freedom (Archie Sonic) to show remorse for badly defeating the source of the injustice and the bane of freedom (Archie Eggman). I didn't know that Archie Sonic has any kind of respect for Archie Eggman in light of his despicable crimes.

EDIT: And i'm sure that i've made it quite clear in the past that I do not like the Archie incarnation of Sonic. I only like the game version of Sonic and the Sonic X version of Sonic. Well, the X version most of the time.

Edited by Verte

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For someone whose entire family was so badly wronged, heck, whose entire people have been so wronged as well as the planet as a whole by the evil of this man, I found it thouroughly unconvincing and like the epitome of injustice that he got paid sympathies.

Game Sonic and/or most other Sonic's in various canon have never had their lives, their loved ones, their people, his planet besmirched by their respective incarnation of the Eggman/Robotnik so much as Archie Sonic did by Robotnik Prime and his successor, Robo-Robotnik. Ok, Fleetway Robotnik was one mean SOB but he got thrown in a mental asylum right?

Archie Eggman deserves not one iota of compassion, be it from Archie Sonic or anyone else. It feels so wrong for one who claims to fight in the name of justice and freedom (Archie Sonic) to show remorse for badly defeating the source of the injustice and the bane of freedom (Archie Eggman). I didn't know that Archie Sonic has any kind of respect for Archie Eggman in light of his despicable crimes.

EDIT: And i'm sure that i've made it quite clear in the past that I do not like the Archie incarnation of Sonic. I only like the game version of Sonic and the Sonic X version of Sonic. Well, the X version most of the time.

Dislike is not an excuse for screwing the facts =P

Sonic is NOT a vengeful character, and that's in any canon. Sonic wasn't fazed by defeating Eggman at all, he was thrown off by him losing his mind. Sonic doesn't and has never outright hated Eggman, despite all the evils he's committed. Even if he defeated him once and for all, he'd still try to spare his life, as Sonic's not the killing type. Sonic's one to have respect for all of his foes that are capable of thought and reason (this excludes mindless things like the Biolizard), and Eggman in particular has become more of an unfriendly playmate than an outright enemy.

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and Eggman in particular has become more of an unfriendly playmate than an outright enemy.

And that's why I'm angry.

I don't dislike hero-villain cat-and-mouse "respect games". I like it with Batman and the Joker. I like it with the Doctor and the Master. I like it with Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd. However, when it comes to Sonic the Hedgehog and Doctor Ivo Robotnik, I absolutely hate it. Sonic can go ahead and treat it as such (as long as he's not a total immature moron and realises that Ivo is serious business as well), but despite AoStH and SatAM being different Robotniks entirely (and I don't even like the SatAM one other than the voice), seeing the words "I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG!!!!" become more and more further from the truth really grinds my gears.

EDIT: I do like how Sonic never actually kills anything, unless via Disney Villain Death Syndrome or if it's a mindless monster. I like heroes like that. I just like Robotnik being on the complete opposite side of the murdering scale but still have character at the same time... again, making Sonic more Batman and Robotnik more Joker.

Edited by Dr. Crusher

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Dislike is not an excuse for screwing the facts =P

Sonic is NOT a vengeful character, and that's in any canon. Sonic wasn't fazed by defeating Eggman at all, he was thrown off by him losing his mind. Sonic doesn't and has never outright hated Eggman, despite all the evils he's committed. Even if he defeated him once and for all, he'd still try to spare his life, as Sonic's not the killing type. Sonic's one to have respect for all of his foes that are capable of thought and reason (this excludes mindless things like the Biolizard), and Eggman in particular has become more of an unfriendly playmate than an outright enemy.

There's a difference between vengefulness and justice.

If Archie Sonic had any true grasp of the concept of justice, he'd leave Eggman the way he was and go about correcting any more wrongs, not reduce himself to feeling like he's the bad guy for dealing a few home truths and effectively inducing the 'consequences' of that i.e Eggman going nuts. Archie Eggman is not redeemable in any way, shape or form and Sonic feeling pity for this monster just feels wrong, taking into account Sonic's inherent lack of malice. It's almost as if Sonic doesn't care about stopping this menace once and for all. It's like it falls in line with game Sonic's percievable "selfishness" in letting a dangerous madman like game Eggman on the loose instead of handing him over to the local law enforcement as if to keep Eggman's potential future challenges for him viable.

On the subject of Sonic having respect for foes that are capable of concious thought and reason, this did not extend to Erazor Djinn, whom he wished to be sealed inside a lamp for eternity. This same lamp was thrown into Evil Foundry's molten metal, quite possibly destroying it and Erazor once and for all. Can't be confirmed because of Erazor's boasts of immortality but a rather ruthless way of dealing with him no?

It's not the the interests of the comic for Sonic/anyone else to kill Eggman, nor for Sonic to commit murder. You wouldn't have the quintessential Sonic villain then would you and comitting murder is certainly not in Sonic's character. Heck, doesn't Sonic even stop Shadow from snapping Eggman like a twig in one issue? That's what I like about Sonic, he's got such a different approach to baddies compared to Shadow's. It just left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sonic to be reduced to feeling like he's the bad guy for stopping the relentlessly evil Eggman once again for the reasons i've already listed.

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Gonna break this down bit by bit. It's getting interesting :)

If Archie Sonic had any true grasp of the concept of justice, he'd leave Eggman the way he was and go about correcting any more wrongs, not reduce himself to feeling like he's the bad guy for dealing a few home truths and effectively inducing the 'consequences' of that i.e Eggman going nuts.

Well first off Sonic's roughly 15 years old (let's just ignore the time and plot screwery for the sake of discussion), he's not gonna be 100% right on what's truly just. He's always been a dude to do what he feels.

Also think of the context. After a heated battle with one of the Doctor's dangerous Final Boss Machines, instead of the usual threats to get Sonic the next time, the dude just snaps, and turns into a babbling mess. Even taking shots at Sonic with his bare hands, which is something he's never done before. Eggman wasn't just defeated, he was broken. That's a pretty intense thing to be a part of, even for someone as fearless as Sonic. It's only natural that he'd trip a few balls about it, even if only for a short while.

Would you rather have seen Sonic throw a party instead?

He actually does the next issue =P

Archie Eggman is not redeemable in any way, shape or form and Sonic feeling pity for this monster just feels wrong, taking into account Sonic's inherent lack of malice. It's almost as if Sonic doesn't care about stopping this menace once and for all. It's like it falls in line with game Sonic's percievable "selfishness" in letting a dangerous madman like game Eggman on the loose instead of handing him over to the local law enforcement as if to keep Eggman's potential future challenges for him viable.

Again, as you seem to be getting at, Sonic doesn't do hatred. If he was anything but stunned, it'd be bordering Scourge levels of douchebaggery, which Sonic is just a step above. Also remember, Sonic Team's Sonic are Archie Comics's Sonic are becoming more and more alike. Aside from the former being near overly philosophical, and the latter being much more of a wisecracker as well as more of a "people person", they're pretty much the same now.

On the subject of Sonic having respect for foes that are capable of concious thought and reason, this did not extend to Erazor Djinn, whom he wished to be sealed inside a lamp for eternity. This same lamp was thrown into Evil Foundry's molten metal, quite possibly destroying it and Erazor once and for all. Can't be confirmed because of Erazor's boasts of immortality but a rather ruthless way of dealing with him no?

Granted, I only got through about three levels in Secret Rings before I ragequit and returned the game (piece of crap that it is), I'd wager that Sonic treated Erazor a fair bit different on the sole basis that he was a fictional character (lol). I imagine if this happened in the real world (again, lol), Sonic's reactions would be slightly different. After all, he played the "bad guy" in Black Knight just for kicks.

It's not the the interests of the comic for Sonic/anyone else to kill Eggman, nor for Sonic to commit murder. You wouldn't have the quintessential Sonic villain then would you and comitting murder is certainly not in Sonic's character. Heck, doesn't Sonic even stop Shadow from snapping Eggman like a twig in one issue? That's what I like about Sonic, he's got such a different approach to baddies compared to Shadow's. It just left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sonic to be reduced to feeling like he's the bad guy for stopping the relentlessly evil Eggman once again for the reasons I've already listed.

I think I've covered this already, specifically the bolded part. So...yeah XD

EDIT: Is this offtopic? It just might be XD

Edited by Aquaslash

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I forgot that Sonic actually killed Erazor. He technically helped to kill Mephiles(in the form of Solaris) too, since he was certainly an "intelligent" being.

I agree that Archie Eggman deserves no kind treatment whatsoever. He killed everyone on Mobius in the timeline he came from(including Sonic), and tried to do it again on Mobius Prime, as if killing a person once wasn't good enough for him. Archie Eggman did pretty much the same thing as Cell from DBZ; destroying the planet and then going back in time do it again for his amusement. I'm pretty sure those who have watched DBZ would agree that Cell didn't deserve any remorse.

If this were game Eggman, then yes, I would feel bad for him if he went insane, as he has shown to have compassion at times. But Archie Eggman? No way.

Edited by Icecoldfrieza

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I haven't read much Archie Sonic before (read: too many stupid characters that I couldn't give two s***s about - one half of them consisting entirely of echidnas), but I have seen the Eggman of the comics, and he's actually spot-on IMO. He's basically what the game Robotnik should be more like.

Of course nothing nice in Archie lasts, so it was only a matter of time before they pretty much replaced him with Snively and the f***ing "I'm powerful enough to completely render everything Eggman does/makes useless therefore making me 100% better than him" Iron Queen. I hope those two die in a fire. Never liked Snively anyway.

And take Scourge and that stupid team of his with them.

And no, this isn't coming from your "I hate any villain that's not Robotnik" rage. I liked Naugus and Mammoth Mogul. In fact, those two are the only characters in the comic I could give a s*** about. One is an awesome old man wizard goblin dude. The other is a f***ing mammoth in a f***ing tuxedo.

Edited by Dr. Crusher

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This whole mini debate just proves my earlier point in that the comic's Eggman IS the villain you want to hate that was sought for in the OP. :lol:

EDIT: Crusher, you'll be happy to know that:

Regina (Iron Queen) JUST got arrested, Eggman has regained his sanity and Snively went fleeing back to him

Edited by Aquaslash

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This thread is a personal attack and I will be contacting the mods!

Maybe then you will hate me! HOHOHOHO!!!

I should have seen this coming.XD

Which reminds me, Mike Pollock does a great job voicing Eggman, in my opinion, able to come up with crazy laughs and quotes that make the old doc feel both hilarious and formidable.:)

"GET A LOAD OF THIS!"XD

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I forgot that Sonic actually killed Erazor.

Whoa whoa. It's been two years, so it's a bit fuzzy. Where does it say that? I just remember the lamp sealing, mountain of hankies scene. There was more?

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Whoa whoa. It's been two years, so it's a bit fuzzy. Where does it say that? I just remember the lamp sealing, mountain of hankies scene. There was more?

There's a scene during the true credits that shows Sonic standing next to Shahra right next to the pool of molten metal that the Ifrit Boss came out of in Evil Foundry. Look closely and you can see the lamp being dropped into the pool;

lampintolavalol.png

What a badass! Either Sonic wants to totally annihilate Erazor (Which ups the cool factor because it's the first time Sonic's ever exerted truly lethal actions against a foe unless you count Final Hazard) or he's doing it in light of Erazor's immortality boastings so that no one ever finds his lamp again.

Edited by Verte

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EDIT: Crusher, you'll be happy to know that:

Regina (Iron Queen) JUST got arrested, Eggman has regained his sanity and Snively went fleeing back to him

...Meh. I suppose that's acceptable, but I think he should just save himself the trouble and get rid of the idiot.

This is another problem I have regarding the game Robotnik's betrayals/monsters - he never gets his revenge. They just swat him away/lock him up/render him useless and Sonic rallies up the hedgehogs and that's that. Metal Sonic never got punished. Nega never got his death sentence. Mephiles never had his crazy fangirl armies violently tortured. They either die by Sonic's hands and never come back (except in fanfiction, in which they usually screw over Robotnik again anyways), or they "go back" to serving Robotnik...without any punishment. This needs to change. And when I say "punish", I mean whilst still being a bad guy. Being a good guy and helping Sonic defeat them doesn't f***ing count.

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There's a scene during the true credits that shows Sonic standing next to Shahra right next to the pool of molten metal that the Ifrit Boss came out of in Evil Foundry. Look closely and you can see the lamp being dropped into the pool;

Hmm... I wonder if that even kills him though. Wasn't the lamp that ball of stuff Shahra gave to Sonic? The thing probably has some magical properties. Sonic says something like "until the end of time" when he seals Erazor, it doesn't really fit if he means "until the end of when I throw your ass into a lava pit".

I know there was more to the ending, because Sonic runs his way out of the Arabian Nights, but that scene totally slipped my memory.

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Metal Sonic never got punished.

Oh Metal Sonic was very punished. Eggman completely removed his sentience, as well as his vocal processor. It's at the point where he is literally a portable loudspeaker for Eggman.

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No no, see, that "punishment" sucks, both as a punishment for Metal and for us, the fans. It doesn't actually show Metal that Robotnik is serious business, and we get a talking communicator that follows Shadow around.

No, I was thinking something more along the lines of "beaten to death by Badniks" or "locked up and beaten to death by Badniks" or "shown hallucinating videos that show people not grasping the true power of Pingas Attack whilst beaten to death by Badniks".

Provided the kids can still watch of course. And that robotic-torturing is in fact possible.

Edited by Dr. Crusher

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Destroying him would serve no real purpose to Eggman. Metal Sonic is still his top creation, and he doesn't look set to bringing back Metal Knuckles(much to my dismay) or any other bot any time soon.

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Of that list, the only viable ones were the two Knuckles bots. Johnny hadn't been created yet, and Tails Doll and Egg Robo are far too slow to keep up the likes of Sonic and Friends.

I do agree with another of the Metals getting more screen time though. Seems Sonic Team hasn't grasped that idea. Yet.

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I do agree with another of the Metals getting more screen time though. Seems Sonic Team hasn't grasped that idea. Yet.

They also haven't even starred in a Sonic Team game yet. Keep in mind that Sonic R wasn't even made by Sonic Team - they really aren't obligated to use Sonic characters made by a third party. Same thing goes for Fang and the rest of the "forgotten" characters.

Edited by HunterTSF

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Winter Olympic Winter games wasn't technically canon, but it did feature a sentient version of Metal, so perhaps it's not impossible that Sonic Team will bring him back in a similar form in a future game.

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Of that list, the only viable ones were the two Knuckles bots. Johnny hadn't been created yet, and Tails Doll and Egg Robo are far too slow to keep up the likes of Sonic and Friends.

I do agree with another of the Metals getting more screen time though. Seems Sonic Team hasn't grasped that idea. Yet.

Maybe not the fastest, but this is Doc Egg we're talking about - Egg Robo and Tails Doll would surely have compensation for being slower.

Also Johnny was mentioned because he was a cool guy. It's always the cool ones that never come back. We see Silver mess up the future more and more but Johnny just f***s off. Silly SEGA.

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Winter Olympic Winter games wasn't technically canon, but it did feature a sentient version of Metal, so perhaps it's not impossible that Sonic Team will bring him back in a similar form in a future game.

Metal Sonic also had a mind of his own in back in the relatively-recent Sonic Rivals 2. Dr. Eggman may have talked through his loudspeaker at times and given him some directives, but he was still controlling himself for the entirety of the journey. It would've been absolutely pointless for Eggman to have appeared in person in Neon Palace to instruct him on his plan of attack if he was just being remotely controlled by him, after all.

Not to mention that he consciously made the decision to sacrifice himself for Shadow in Chaotic Inferno, without Eggman's intervention.

And seeing as this game's script writer was none other than Iizuka himself, I think it's a safe bet that he'll remain sentient in future titles. The latest Mario & Sonic game managed to keep that up, at least.

Back on topic: Eggman? Less hatable? What was hatable about this?

Robotnik_50.png

Eggman was never really all that evil, murderous, or even all that dislikable. He builds cute little robots so he could build his silly little theme park with his face plastered all over it, and he might break into a little temper tantrum if Sonic breaks his toys. Aside from that, he's a pretty cool guy who has managed to assist in saving the world a few times. He's jeopardized it too, but he never destroys anything for the sake of destruction. He destroys to create!

Aywho, we now have an evil Eggman. You just need to look farther down the family tree.

Edited by HunterTSF

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They also haven't even starred in a Sonic Team game yet. Keep in mind that Sonic R wasn't even made by Sonic Team - they really aren't obligated to use Sonic characters made by a third party. Same thing goes for Fang and the rest of the "forgotten" characters.

Except Sonic Team is in the credits and Yuji Ukewa was the character designer.

Whoops.

Incidentally, Ukewa apparently also designed Metal Sonic

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