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Awoo.

Hating Eggman


Blazey Firekitty

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Except Sonic Team is in the credits and Yuji Ukewa was the character designer.

Whoops.

Incidentally, Ukewa apparently also designed Metal Sonic

Bah! I forgot that this game was one of the few third-party games developed cooperatively with Sonic Team, in a similar fashion to Sonic Rush and so forth.

I haven't the slightest clue on why there's a Sonic R embargo, then. I'm still inclined to say that Sonic Team's not all too fond of integrating Sonic games made by third parties into the canon (Ex: Chaotix), but they actually worked on this title. Weird.

Edited by HunterTSF
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Embargo? They allowed the use of "Super Sonic Racing" , and "Can You Feel the Sunshine" in ASR. Not to mention all the random Facebook character polls which featured Tails Doll and Metal Knuckles.

Also to top it off, Sonic R was in Gems Collection (also done by Sonic Team), and the Sound selection had icons of all of the cast of Sonic R, including the metals.

While I'm not much for canon, I don't see why Sonic R can't be a part of it. In fact, if you say that Sonic won the Grand Prix by means of going super, Eggman was so frustrated by losing that he discontinued the entire Metallix series. This would be why Metal Sonic was locked in a tube in Final Egg. He would later free himself and cause the events of Sonic Heroes.

To bring this back to the topic, a reason to hate Eggman is that he's not brought Metal Knuckles out of storage XD

Edited by Aquaslash
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The Tails Doll cameos in SA1, kind of. Along with his never again seen brothers, Knuckles and Sonic Doll.

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Back on topic: Eggman? Less hatable? What was hatable about this?

Robotnik_50.png

Eggman was never really all that evil, murderous, or even all that dislikable. He builds cute little robots so he could build his silly little theme park with his face plastered all over it, and he might break into a little temper tantrum if Sonic breaks his toys. Aside from that, he's a pretty cool guy who has managed to assist in saving the world a few times. He's jeopardized it too, but he never destroys anything for the sake of destruction. He destroys to create!

Aywho, we now have an evil Eggman. You just need to look farther down the family tree.

No. Don't even try it. There's no way I will ever accept Nega for what he is now. We can't praise SEGA just because there's a really cool totally evil dude and he happens to look like Robotnik. It has to be Robotnik - Nega is just a guy/souless puppet that looks like him. It wasn't the guy I fought all those years ago. Besides, if Nega is more evil and more "better", how does that help normal Ivo? And you can't use the Robotnik's Creation VS Nega's Destruction gig, because it's been made very clear that Nega is obviously much more evil than Robotnik.

I originally liked the first Rush-made Nega because, despite thinking it was a rather bland idea, fighting two Eggmen could be fun I suppose. I didn't like it when he became more and more of a "Robotnik without his morals" deal. That's one of the worst forms of Villain Decay IMO, and that goes for all villains, not just Robotnik. That's not to say that the usual Robotnik-shunning cases aren't any better - Dark Gaia in particular was upsetting for me, with Robotnik going "WHY MEEEEEEEE" indicating that SEGA might actually realise that they keep swatting him aside... but they don't do anything about it and even welcome it with open arms.

You know what else is a really bad method of Villain Decay? Being locked up in your own base by your own robot - lo and behold, they did that too.

Also, Robotnik's silliness is just a cover. His silliness didn't stop him from breaking apart the planet (twice actually) and half of the moon, let alone messing up the future in Sonic CD and being implied to have killed Tails in Sonic 2 Game Gear's Bad Ending.

The Joker is silly. Porky Minch is silly. Does that make them harmless?

Also, you speak of all of Robotnik's Sonic team-ups as if they're good. This is a problem.

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and being implied to have killed Tails in Sonic 2 Game Gear's Bad Ending.

Am I the ONLY one who thinks that conclusion is a HUGE stretch?

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This is news to me, too O.o Explain?

It ends with a ghostly image of Tails in the stars, followed by the gameover screen.

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Sonic 2 Game Gear, like most 2D Sonic games, had two different endings (if you can call them that) regarding on whether you collected the Chaos Emeralds or not. (Like in Sonic 1 Game Gear, they weren't in Special Stages, but rather in random acts of each Zone and you simply had to find them.) Ultimately, the line would end at the final act of Scrambled Egg Zone, in which you fight Silver Sonic (aka Mecha Sonic). If you win, and you collected all Chaos Emeralds beforehand, Mecha's remains gave you the last Emerald, giving you access to Crystal Egg Zone, beating Robotnik, and saving Tails. The credits would show Sonic and Tails running together, eventually looking up into the night sky.

However, if you didn't get all the Emeralds before fighting Mecha - after you win against him, it cuts to the credits like in the Good Ending, with Sonic running... alone. And then he'd eventually look up into the night sky... showing a constellation of Tails' face.

Now, fair enough, we don't actually hear or see what happened to Tails. But really - with Sonic running alone and the Tails constellation, I just can't see it being a scenario of "You didn't get the Emeralds, so... you... just can't get to Tails and Robotnik I guess." It sounds too... meek. Plus, even if manuals aren't exactly trustworthy, the game's manual made Robotnik sound suspiciously hostile.

I suppose it's just the feeling you get when you see something that doesn't really explain anything. The Bad Ending just tells me that a young fox boy met his fate at the hands of Pingas Man because of my crap gaming skills.

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I gotta say it could be interpreted that way. Although the 'ghostly face in the stars' thing clearly by itself doesn't mean anyone's died - the good ending has BOTH their faces up there after all.

Meh, I see it more as Sonic pondering on being alone and wondering what his buddy's fate is because he didn't get to him. I don't think Sonic could know that Tails is dead. Just that he wasn't able to rescue him, and he could be dead.

But I think it's a stretch to interpret it as a bold statement that EGGMAN KILLED TAILS. It's a little too nebulous for that.

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I've heard quite a few people say they thought Tails died in the bad ending and I'll admit it looks like it. But it doesn't quite make sense because in the good ending you see constellations of both Sonic and Tails in the sky. LINK So if the constellation face in the sky was meant to show Tails was dead does that mean in the Good ending both Sonic and Tails are dead? So I'll agree with Flyboy and say the Bad ending was just Sonic thinking of Tails and the Good ending shows them both in the sky because they are happy to be together again.

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Okay, maybe the constellation part was wrong, I'll give you that. I know many games with multiple endings beforehand had their Bad Endings consist of "You basically just can't go here. So there," but for the way this game went, it felt like... not enough. Like there was more to it. And again, manual-trusting notwithstanding, Robontik was portrayed as a hostile dude, what with forcing Tails to write a letter to Sonic. Even if the mdoern-Robotnik is sort-of more destructive (moons and planets breaking), I couldn't see him brutally forcing kids to do things. At least not without feeling regret later on, which Sonic 2 Game Gear's Robotnik clearly didn't show.

Another thing to point out about Robotnik being a bastard in Sonic 2 Game Gear - the Ant Lion Boss.

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I'm not sure how relevant this is, as far as 8-bit Sonic 2 Eggman's degree of evilness goes, but isn't this the same game where Eggman saves Sonic from certain death at one point? Granted, I think Eggman fought him afterward, but still...

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Yeah, Sonic was about to fall into a pit of lava, and Robotnik grabbed him with an Egg Mobile crane at the last second.

......Only to drop him off at the aforementioned Ant Lion boss. A boss whose unfair antics have scarred many boys and girls for life.

Robotnik wasn't saving Sonic - he just didn't think boiling in lava was cruel enough. Why fall into a generic molten pit when you can rage in anger after being beaten for the 625th time by a tiny ant lion robot?

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Robotnik wasn't saving Sonic - he just didn't think boiling in lava was cruel enough. Why fall into a generic molten pit when you can rage in anger after being beaten for the 625th time by a tiny ant lion robot?

I didn't see it as cruelty so much as noble pride- "Sonic can't die in some fluke accident- I have to be the one to defeat my nemesis!" Hence saving him and having him fight a machine of his own creation.

It's not really a point for good or evil, so much as a point for Eggman's affable rivalry with Sonic.

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...Perhaps.

Bah, rivalry.

*ahem* Sorry. I've always hated the idea of Sonic and Robotnik being rivals. I thought that was Knuckles/Metal Sonic/Shadow/Silver/Jet/Not-Mario's job.

Robotnik is surely a villain. He is not lowly or equal enough with that pesky hedgehog to be a rival! He is better than him! He is not a knight, but rather a king!

(I mean, he got a prrrromotion and everything...)

Edited by Dr. Crusher
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...Perhaps.

Bah, rivalry.

*ahem* Sorry. I've always hated the idea of Sonic and Robotnik being rivals. I thought that was Knuckles/Metal Sonic/Shadow/Silver/Jet/Not-Mario's job.

Robotnik is surely a villain. He is not lowly or equal enough with that pesky hedgehog to be a rival! He is better than him! He is not a knight, but rather a king!

(I mean, he got a prrrromotion and everything...)

But here's the thing, there's no type of rulebook or anything that says Eggman can't be a villian and a rival at the same time. It worked that way with Sonic and Shadow in SA2, did it not? The characters don't have to stay in the same typical norms we expect other characters to be in, they can be whatever works to make their archetype more dynamic. So while Eggman is a villian and archnemesis to Sonic, he can still be his rival at the same time.

He's a king who can fight like a knight. Although he can't be better than Sonic, since Sonic can easily trash all but his most powerful and/or effective creations. But he's someone who is willing to get his hands dirty if there's no other way to get the job done to his standards.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Meh. Your mileage may vary. Personally I think Robotnik being a "rival" just makes him like Knuckles and Shadow and all the others in the big group of rivals. I thought Metal Sonic was a better rival-villain.

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Meh. Your mileage may vary. Personally I think Robotnik being a "rival" just makes him like Knuckles and Shadow and all the others in the big group of rivals. I thought Metal Sonic was a better rival-villain.

You forget Wario who was Mario's rival and villain. Wario was apparently supposed to be the handheld version of Bowser seen with the unreleased Mario VB demo, but astutely transformed into rival with Mario hogging in on his fame in one game.

Don't worry, he still hates Mario's guts as a villain would and does the same uncanny things.

Putting Robotnik into a rival status doesn't change the fact to what he is; on the outside or as a character. A villain is a villain.

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The way Robotnik reacts whenever Sonic appears, such as screaming "Not that irritating hedgehog again!" and shit in Sonic '06 makes me believe he's more of a villain than a rival, putting his plans for world domination above besting Sonic.

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You forget Wario who was Mario's rival and villain.

Or more to the point, that Bowser directly refers to Mario as his rival in several games. One can be a nemesis and rival at the same time, and in Eggman's case, his focus on being better than Sonic and outclassing his longtime foe certainly constitutes a rivalry. He doesn't just want Sonic defeated for the sake of his plans; He wants him defeated for the sake of his ego, so that he can know that he- and not Sonic- was always the greatest and most awesome guy around. Because Eggman's kind of petty like that (But we love him anyway).

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I didn't see it as cruelty so much as noble pride- "Sonic can't die in some fluke accident- I have to be the one to defeat my nemesis!" Hence saving him and having him fight a machine of his own creation.

It's not really a point for good or evil, so much as a point for Eggman's affable rivalry with Sonic.

This actually supports my theory that Eggman's fight against Sonic and pals is, while potentially lethal, more of a childish game than anything else, with very little feelings involved that are actually malicious.

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But that's the problem - there's no feeling in the fight. There's no epicness or challenge or emotion in the battles. It's almost like this:

"Hey Sonic. Let's fight."

"Okay Eggman."

*cue battle*

"Wow. That was a great battle old chum."

"Yeah. I'll be leaving now. Oh yeah, I hate that hedgehog (but not really)."

No wonder they use giant monsters these days - he's hardly threatening/hateful-towards-Sonic enough to be the final boss.

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But that's the problem - there's no feeling in the fight. There's no epicness or challenge or emotion in the battles. It's almost like this:

"Hey Sonic. Let's fight."

"Okay Eggman."

*cue battle*

"Wow. That was a great battle old chum."

"Yeah. I'll be leaving now. Oh yeah, I hate that hedgehog (but not really)."

No wonder they use giant monsters these days - he's hardly threatening/hateful-towards-Sonic enough to be the final boss.

Now I can't stop picturing Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog Robotnik shaking his fist and shouting "I AM INDIFFERENT TO THAT HEDGEHOG!!!"XD

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For real, even AoStH Robotnik actually hated his enemy.

The pingas showed him the way.

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For real, even AoStH Robotnik actually hated his enemy.

The pingas showed him the way.

Even Sith Lords know the power of the pingas.

"I find your lack of pingas disturbing."XD

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