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Awoo.

Hating Eggman


Blazey Firekitty

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Which is why the games need to have AoStH quotes.

I would be so happy to see Robotnik commanding G.U.N that he's "demoting them to Scrub Monkey Third Class".

And then he blows s*** up.

Edited by Dr. Crusher
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I personally, don't like the direction that Eggman's character has gone. I feel that in adding more depth, to his character, he has become a little too goofy.

I'm not saying that Eggman should not have a goofy side to him, but there needs to be a balance to his character, that the new games have not had.

I think that Sonic Adventure 2, did a good job in capturing both sides of his personality.

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But that's the problem - there's no feeling in the fight. There's no epicness or challenge or emotion in the battles. It's almost like this:

"Hey Sonic. Let's fight."

"Okay Eggman."

*cue battle*

"Wow. That was a great battle old chum."

"Yeah. I'll be leaving now. Oh yeah, I hate that hedgehog (but not really)."

No wonder they use giant monsters these days - he's hardly threatening/hateful-towards-Sonic enough to be the final boss.

Um, there's absolutely no game that comes anywhere close to that. Eggman's dialogue when fighting Sonic can come across as a rivalry, but along with that comes the murderous intent in the whole fight.

Sonic Unleashed for example. Eggman is searching for the Temple of Gaia, and Sonic manages to catch up with him. He gets into his mech, and fights the hedgehog. His words like "See if you can dodge THIS!" and "Are you fast enough to avoid THIS!" come across as playful while his actions are lethal. When you have something that can potentially go toe-to-toe with the person you're fighting, some people might actually play around with the person before finishing them off, and this is kind of the case with Eggman even though he ends up getting beaten at the end.

Now fast foward to the Egg Dragoon fight, and Eggman's dialogue changes from playful during the first fight to lethal and murderous in this one. "This gorge shall be your tomb!", "Out of my sight!", "Stubborn little pincushion! Give up and DIE already!", dialogue like that isn't anything that makes the Doctor seem chummy with Sonic in the slightest.

Heck, in Sonic Adventure, he's no different. Such as the case in the Egg Viper fight, as he plays around with Sonic by shooting lasers with deadly aim while flying around the battlefield. While lines such as "Get a load of THIS!" wouldn't be anything as murderous as he was with the Egg Dragoon in Unleashed, it isn't exactly friendly going by his tone. But all that is completely undershadowed by his near-suicidal attempt to take out Sonic along with himself when you get the last hit on him.

There is definitely some feeling in the fights with Eggman.

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Now I can't stop picturing Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog Robotnik shaking his fist and shouting "I AM INDIFFERENT TO THAT HEDGEHOG!!!"XD

I DISLIKE THAT HEDGEHOG'S ACTIONS, BUT I RATHER RESPECT HIM AS A PERSONNN!!!!!

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I've always believed that a rivalry is a competitive relationship in which the participants are fighting because they want to achieve the same goals, not because their own goals directly oppose each other. Jet, Johnny, and I suppose Metal Sonic and Shadow to an extent have been true rivals to Sonic, Knuckles was a confused obstacle/villain, and Eggman has heartily served his role as main villain well and hasn't sat into the role of rival at all. He wants to take over to some extent, and Sonic wants to keep the world as it is. These are completely different goals, thus Eggman and Sonic aren't rivals. The fact that they may taunt or compliment each other during battle seems irrelevant to that; There's nothing aside from cliche' and tradition dictating that a hero and villain relationship has to be hateful.

Edited by Nepenthe
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I will say that Eggman is the only character to be officially referred to as Sonic's rival, albeit the first reference to this was not in the games. In Sonic X, Tails says that Sonic and Eggman have always been rivals. He says this in both the original Japanese and dub, so don't worry about that being a 4Kids blunder; It wasn't. (This would be in episode 40, "Eggman Corporation")

A direct game reference would come shortly later, in the Sonic Heroes manual.

Page07.jpg

Eggman does, at the very least, view Sonic as his rival. Whether that view is mutual or not is up for debate, but to Eggman, Sonic is a worthy opponent that he hopes to best in battle for the sake of his ego, and not merely to accomplish his goals for power (Though that's important too).

Edited by Dr. Mechano
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"Eggman Inc." aired 5 days after Sonic Heroes' release, so it technically appeared in game canon first.

Sonic Heroes - December 30, 2003 (JP)

"Eggman Inc." - January 4, 2004 (JP)

Edited by HunterTSF
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Even taking Eggman's perspective as true and the notion that he mostly opposes Sonic for the sake of his own ego, this does not objectively make their competitive relationship a rivalry unless Sonic is opposing him specifically to gain that same type of satisfaction first and foremost, which I would disagree with. Sonic fights Eggman primarily to keep the planet in or restore it to its previous state of peace. Even though Sonic has fun fighting and gains a prideful boost during his confrontations with Eggman, I'd argue that Eggman is not the sole source of these two feelings for Sonic as the hedgehog is naturally adventurous and cocky regardless of his presence (see: The Black Knight), thus fun and pride are secondary effects for Sonic when he fights Eggman.

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Perhaps, but just as Amy's infatuation with Sonic can be called a one-sided crush, so can Eggman's opposition to Sonic be called a one-sided rivalry. Eggman views Sonic as a rival and worthy opponent, while Sonic simply sees Eggman as a mad supervillain - Perhaps even a misguided and pitiable figure if Unleashed is anything to go by.

While it's deeply personal for Eggman, it isn't for Sonic. He doesn't try to stop Eggman out of a desire to defeat him and best him in battle; He does it because Eggman is dangerous and his schemes can potentially hurt people. Furthermore, it can be deduced that Sonic doesn't seem to even actively dislike Eggman as a person, but simply shows contempt for his actions.

Eggman doesn't see it that way. Sonic ruins his schemes, and is the only thing of importance that stands in Eggman's way of ruling the world. Thus Eggman personalizes his battles with Sonic, elevating Sonic above a mere obstacle and viewing him as his greatest rival on the battlefield. To defeat Sonic means more than mere global domination- It means Eggman is the best, and serves as the much-needed fulfillment to Eggman's already massive ego. Eggman respects Sonic more than anyone else in the entire series (Save for perhaps Professor Gerald), and has numerously made note of his incredible abilities and skills- To top that would make Eggman, in his own mind, superior to this all-powerful force, which is what an egomaniac like the doctor wants so badly.

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...lines such as "Get a load of THIS!"...

Ahh...that line. :D

I've always believed that a rivalry is a competitive relationship in which the participants are fighting because they want to achieve the same goals, not because their own goals directly oppose each other. Jet, Johnny, and I suppose Metal Sonic and Shadow to an extent have been true rivals to Sonic, Knuckles was a confused obstacle/villain...

My stance on rivalry to a tee. I'm not so sure about Metal, as he was created to be a villain rather than a rival. That might just be me though. :unsure:

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Perhaps, but just as Amy's infatuation with Sonic can be called a one-sided crush, so can Eggman's opposition to Sonic be called a one-sided rivalry. Eggman views Sonic as a rival and worthy opponent, while Sonic simply sees Eggman as a mad supervillain - Perhaps even a misguided and pitiable figure if Unleashed is anything to go by.

While it's deeply personal for Eggman, it isn't for Sonic. He doesn't try to stop Eggman out of a desire to defeat him and best him in battle; He does it because Eggman is dangerous and his schemes can potentially hurt people. Furthermore, it can be deduced that Sonic doesn't seem to even actively dislike Eggman as a person, but simply shows contempt for his actions.

Eggman doesn't see it that way. Sonic ruins his schemes, and is the only thing of importance that stands in Eggman's way of ruling the world. Thus Eggman personalizes his battles with Sonic, elevating Sonic above a mere obstacle and viewing him as his greatest rival on the battlefield. To defeat Sonic means more than mere global domination- It means Eggman is the best, and serves as the much-needed fulfillment to Eggman's already massive ego. Eggman respects Sonic more than anyone else in the entire series (Save for perhaps Professor Gerald), and has numerously made note of his incredible abilities and skills- To top that would make Eggman, in his own mind, superior to this all-powerful force, which is what an egomaniac like the doctor wants so badly.

I don't think a non-reciprocated crush is the same as a non-reciprocated rivalry, and I doubt whether the latter can even exist under those terms. A crush is a naturally-occurring physiological attraction that isn't dependent on any level of mutual acknowledgement to be. The same can't be so easily said for social relationships, of which a rivalry is one, as the very notion of a social relationship implies some level of mutual acknowledgement to be, unlike a person's feelings.

You can call Sonic and Eggman's rivalry one-sided due to the fact that Eggman sees Sonic as a threat to his ego more than a threat to his plans. But if we both admit that neither party competes for the same goals at all, which is the defining characteristic of a rivalry, than I'm still inclined to believe that Sonic and Eggman's rivalry is actually nonexistent, just as Sonic and Amy's romantic relationship is nonexistent, even though Amy's crush on Sonic still legitimately exists.

However, I would agree with you if Sonic primarily fought Eggman for pride, but simply didn't give the strength of their rivalry the same level of consideration as Eggman. That seems to be a one-sided relationship to me. But a relationship wherein one person is giving 100% isn't mutual, thus I don't consider the state of that relationship to even exist. xP

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I'd like to mention that in Unleashed, dealing with Sonic seemed to be a pretty minor concern for Eggman, aside from the Egg Beetle and Egg Devil Ray, Eggman didn't do much to thwart Sonic. He didn't even pilot the Egg Devil Ray, he left that up to his robot's autonomous hands.

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I will say that Eggman is the only character to be officially referred to as Sonic's rival

Uhh...no he's not?

Lost count of how many times it's been said about Shadow

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I'd like to mention that in Unleashed, dealing with Sonic seemed to be a pretty minor concern for Eggman, aside from the Egg Beetle and Egg Devil Ray, Eggman didn't do much to thwart Sonic. He didn't even pilot the Egg Devil Ray, he left that up to his robot's autonomous hands.

I'd say creating the Egg Dragoon was pretty huge, especially given that is one of the more extreme boss encounters of the entire series (prompting Sonic to yell "Whoa! Chill out, Eggman!!" when things get especially heated). Granted, the entire motivation behind Project: Dark Gaia was to create Eggmanland, and that was a success, so after that Eggman could return to his other major passtime, namely killing Sonic. Indeed, his first (and only) instruction to Dark Gaia was to "crush" Sonic.

Maybe he just ranks things with different priorities? First, Eggmanland. Second, kill Sonic?

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Uhh...no he's not?

Lost count of how many times it's been said about Shadow

Then please, provide one official example.

Any in-game quotes? I'll even accept a manual quote. I'll even accept Sonic X quotes, since it's fairly close to (but not the same as) the game canon.

No other character has, in any official capacity, been directly referred to as Sonic's rival. Arguably, the entire cast of the Sonic Rivals series can be inferred to be rivaling each other, but it doesn't directly call anyone a rival of Sonic specifically, so yeah.

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The manual for Sonic Adventure 2 Battle says "Metal Sonic and Sonic have a strong rivalry" :P.

Then again in that same manual it also says under Eggman that "Once he has collected all the Chaos Emeralds, he plans to take care of his lifelong rival, Sonic, once and for all.". Guess this means that it was Sonic Adventure 2 (not Heroes) that first established them as rivals.

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Is it enough that Robotnik isn't among the playables in either Rivals games?

I'm with Nepenthe. Gary Oak is a rival because he fights Ash for the title of Pokemon Master. Animosity in the relationship is a product of being pitted against each other on their way to the top. Eggman is the instigator here though, and Sonic is trying to stop his schemes. Proper rivals for Eggman would be Metal Overlord, Eggman Nega, and possibly the Monster of the Week but it's hard to call those characters. Proper rivals for Sonic include Metal in the speed department, Shadow in the leading hedgehog department, Knuckles and Blaze and Silver just because... Eggman and Sonic run against each other, not in the same direction.

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Then please, provide one official example.

Any in-game quotes? I'll even accept a manual quote. I'll even accept Sonic X quotes, since it's fairly close to (but not the same as) the game canon.

No other character has, in any official capacity, been directly referred to as Sonic's rival. Arguably, the entire cast of the Sonic Rivals series can be inferred to be rivaling each other, but it doesn't directly call anyone a rival of Sonic specifically, so yeah.

Knuckles's profile on Sonic Channel states that Knuckles is Sonic's rival, just like his profile on the Sonic Riders Zero Gravity English website.

The French manuals of Sonic Rush and Sonic Chronicles say the same thing, though I don't know what the English manuals say.

The French manual of Sonic Rush Adventure says that Sonic is Johnny's main rival.

The French manual of Sonic Rivals 2 states that Shadow sees Sonic as his rival.

And there's probably more.

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The only real characters that I both like and could count for a place in "Sonic's Rivals" are the robot Sonics, Knuckles and Johnny.

The robot Sonics are obvious, even if only Metal is more of an actual rival. Suffice to say, it's likely that your evil clone will end up as some form of rival. Luckily, unlike many other "rivals", the robot Sonics were/are actually evil and none of this anti-hero tish.

Knuckles brings the classic concept of Speed VS Strength, and in comparison to a certain other popular character, I tend to think Speed VS Strength is much more exciting than Speed VS Speed. Plus Knuckles has (or had, depending on how you feel) the polar opposite of Sonic's attitude, so yeah.

Johnny tends to be left out most of the time, and that upsets me. The reason why I'm so desperate to see Johnny show up again (other than because he's f***ing awesome) is because I see much potential in him. Sure, we just heard CHECK THIS OUT this and I DON'T THINK SO that, but from what I saw in SRA, he seems to really like speed... just like Sonic. I mean, don't know about you, but that's the impression I get when you hear things like "the Sultan of Speed".

I mean, he even sounds and almost talks like Sonic for chrissake!

While I do like both Jet and Blaze, I don't really consider them rival characters. Jet's a pretty odd one, and he may always rant about beating Sonic and all that... but there's just something that I can't see. As for Blaze, the only time you could really consider her as some form of "rival" was in the first Rush, and even then their fight was mostly due to the two Eggmen acting like proper b**tards.

Silver just can't be a rival. It just isn't happening.

Shadow doesn't count, because he sucks.

Mario doesn't count, because he is in fact a Mario character.

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Shadow doesn't count, because he sucks.

No sir. You're going to have to do better than that, because this "he doesn't count, 'cause he sux" bullshit isn't going to fly by so long as I'm around these boards.

Shadow has been more of a rival than even Knuckles has ever been, as he when head on against Sonic for his own reasons without having to be tricked into doing so unlike Knuckles. Everything he's done against the Blue Blur has been for his own personal gain, even if he was convinced into doing so, because he knew full well on all the events that would happen should he choose to get involved. Compare that with the Doctor having to trick Knuckles that Sonic was coming after the Master Emerald, where Knuckles had no idea each time he was tricked that he was being lied to.

He even rivals Sonic in terms of abilities. They're both super fast, and they're both capable of Chaos Control. But when it comes to what they're better skilled in, it's Sonic with his speed while Shadow has mastery over Chaos Control. You see a lot more rivalry going on between these two hedgehogs than you would with Sonic and Knuckles, because the latter have presumably become friends since SA2 and haven't fought since.

I wouldn't care if it was Big the Cat in place of Shadow either, and he's my least liked character out of all of them, but because "he sucks" doesn't even scratch the tip of the iceberg in any argument.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Then please, provide one official example.

Any in-game quotes? I'll even accept a manual quote. I'll even accept Sonic X quotes, since it's fairly close to (but not the same as) the game canon.

No other character has, in any official capacity, been directly referred to as Sonic's rival. Arguably, the entire cast of the Sonic Rivals series can be inferred to be rivaling each other, but it doesn't directly call anyone a rival of Sonic specifically, so yeah.

*dashes off to Sonic manual collection*

Once he has collected all the Chaos Emeralds, he plans to take care of his lifelong rival, Sonic, once and for all.

The strongest robot ivented by Dr. Eggman in order to defeat Sonic. Metal Sonic and Sonic have a strong rivalry.

Knuckles is Sonic's friend and rival.

Wild, tough, and stubborn, and inflexible, Knuckles sees himself as Sonic's rival, perhaps because of his own dreams of a free lifestyle.

Sonic is always finding ways to stop his diabolical plots, but as with all great arch-enemies Eggman now sees Sonic as more of a rival than a threat.

A powerful Echidna with spiky fists, and Sonic's best friend and rival.

Like Sonic, Shadow is an extremely fast hedgehog that can give his more famous blue rival a run for his money in most Speed events.

Created as the ultimate life form in a lab by Professor Gerald Robotnik, Shadow believes Sonic to be his rival in all aspects of his life.

Both friend and rival of Sonic, Knuckles is a martial-arts expert who can break through rocks with his spiked fists.

Shadow The Hedgehog joins the brawl alongside Sonic! Shadow is known as a sort of rival for Sonic.

Sonic's rival.

Sonic's rival.

His initial hatred of Sonic has now developed into a friendly rivalry.

Sonic Channel also mentions Knuckles, Jet, and Silver as being rivals to Sonic, and the (now down) SRSS site mentions Knuckles as a rival again. Mario was also directly stated to be Sonic's rival in Mario & Sonic at the Beijing Olympic, bringing our rival count to...

Knuckles - 7

Shadow - 5

Eggman - 2

Jet -1

Mario - 1

Metal Sonic - 1

Silver - 1

Core also stated that the international versions use their equivalent term for "rival" for Johnny and the rest, so the word's been tossed around a lot.

Edited by Spagonia
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My, you have quite an impressive Sonic manual collection :D

I have two questions though if you don't mind...

Sonic Channel also mentions Knuckles, Jet, and Silver as being rivals to Sonic, and the (now down) SRSS site mentions Knuckles as a rival again.

- Where is Silver mentioned to be Sonic's rival? I can't find this on his Sonic Channel profile...

- What is SRSS?

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*dashes off to Sonic manual collection*

Sonic Channel also mentions Knuckles, Jet, and Silver as being rivals to Sonic, and the (now down) SRSS site mentions Knuckles as a rival again. Mario was also directly stated to be Sonic's rival in Mario & Sonic at the Beijing Olympic, bringing our rival count to...

Knuckles - 7

Shadow - 5

Eggman - 2

Jet -1

Mario - 1

Metal Sonic - 1

Silver - 1

Core also stated that the international versions use their equivalent term for "rival" for Johnny and the rest, so the word's been tossed around a lot.

Wow, thank you! I KNEW that Knuckles had been mentioned plenty of times as Sonic's rival, but I didn't have any manuals to prove it.

So no more of this "Eggman is the only one to be officially named as Sonic's rival" crap =P

Also I'm totally in the camp that says both sides have to partake in order for it to be a true rivalry, whether or not one of them THINKS the other is his rival.

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- What is SRSS?

Sonic Riders Shooting Star Story, aka Sonic Riders Zero Gravity, for those of us who didn't import their games from Japan XD
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