What ISN'T needed for a Sonic game?

[ovarloard]

As much as I'm tired of hearing of pinball physics these days, I should probably point out that the Spindash was made useless in 3D because there was no slope physics to aid its functionality. So pretty much as of Sonic '06 it's a slide move you can charge. Could be a different story if you could actually get a boost using it downhill and there wasn't persistent boostwhoring to fag it up in the process.

Then there's the camera to think about. The camera could either swivel to a 2.5D style for the downhill, which defies the whole point of the spindash being useless, or it could change to some awkward angle above (?) Sonic. The way the camera is set up a whole lot of the time when it's not too busy leading you to cheap deaths is behind Sonic, and unless the camera zoomed out a whole lot, the game wouldn't be able to show the ramp up at the end, so it's up to you to decide whether it's worth curling into a ball, or forget it because the downhill ends at a certain point without ever going a little upward and you have to run to keep going.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. ..Gahh, I'm trying to list all my reasons quickly before I forget them, and so when it's typed up it's confusing.

Edited March 26, 2009 by OvErLoRd Darkspine

[Urtheart]

While I'm going to quote this again at least this topic has had some thought in it:

The sooner Sonic fans realise that they make up probably less than 10% of the sales of any Sonic game, the sooner they will realise why no game will ever be aimed at them again

Now to discussion:

I'm almost pleased to see Pinball physics on that list since it is something almost every other single dolt is asking for, despite it being almost impossible to work in 3D space (or at least work and make it fun), though for 2D games they managed to get some of it right, I believe in the level designs you could make some slopped surfaces act flat, although this was more likely a limit to the MD physics ability.

I had something else to say but out of fear that I'll get this topic back on the killing route, I'll keep it to myself.

[Phos]

As for slightly angled surfaces, Sonic isn't a complete slave to the the physics, he does have some traction.

Thanks for calling ma a dolt, though.

[Zanoh]

Well, technically, you can just avoid using the dash during Unleashed.;; While I was playing the PS2 version, I was causing myself unneccesary boredom 'cause I let myself get brainwashed the grading system at the end of the level into trying to blaze through to the end all the time. I felt a lot better about the day stages once I realized that it was my choice to take it slow and steady, and thus have more fun.

Another thing that should go, the grading system *nods* Just put a 10 minute time limit or something.

[SuperStingray]

I'm almost pleased to see Pinball physics on that list since it is something almost every other single dolt is asking for, despite it being almost impossible to work in 3D space (or at least work and make it fun), though for 2D games they managed to get some of it right, I believe in the level designs you could make some slopped surfaces act flat, although this was more likely a limit to the MD physics ability.

I'm going to have to agree with Phos (for once). As I said, pinball physics can work virtually flawlessly in a 3D environment. I'm not saying Sonic should be the next Super Monkey Ball, as that would be an overly extreme usage, but I will say that pinball physics add a dynamic that makes Sonic a very unique platformer and gives it a natural, fluid feeling.

[Rusty Spy]

I agree with SuperStingray. I don't see how pinball physics can't work in 3D. Objects speed up when you go downhill, and slow down when going uphill. Momentum can be converted into distance as well as inertia, and you gain speed as you fall.

Pinball physics added a new dimension of movement and fluidity in games. Rather than the levels requiring your characters own arsenal of moves to overcome it, Sonic worked with the level as well to allow players to experiment with the level design to move about.

[Blacklightning]

I agree with SuperStingray. I don't see how pinball physics can't work in 3D. Objects speed up when you go downhill, and slow down when going uphill. Momentum can be converted into distance as well as inertia, and you gain speed as you fall.

As far as I'm aware, nobody is trying to prove that slope physics can't work in 3D period. Matter of fact, I've personally seen to it that they CAN. Some people just fail to realize that there's a lot more to it than was noticable in the 2D games. Matter of fact, I could go as far as to say it was only the lack of the Z-axis that made them tolerable in the first place. What really puzzles me, though, is that I've repeatedly suggested that these kinds of physics be made lenient and forgiving to allow them to actually work to the player's benefit so as not to turn Sonic into a balance dexterity game, but to some people that's enough to justify no longer calling it slope physics anymore. I just don't understand what these people are trying to get at.

So I'm just going to throw a suggestion out there and try for both. Whilst standing we can have Sonic virtually immune to the physics engine beyond really steep or negative slopes, and have an activatable rolling/sliding state (yes I know sliding makes less sense but it's the only modern example I can use) where the physics is Sonic's bitch, for better and/or worse. PLEASE tell me I'm getting somewhere with this.

Another thing that should go, the grading system *nods* Just put a 10 minute time limit or something.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I'm probably speaking out of opinion here but I think it's one of the best things the modern games have brought into the series - it brings a sense of achievement to players who play the game flawlessly, and brings motivation to improve to the players who are still getting the hang of things. A great big letter means a lot more to most than a timer or a score, especially when we're not informed of what the par time/score is in the first place. Though I'm just going to go off on a limb and say get rid of the S+ ranks instead. Seriously, "A" is enough. XD

Though I guess that hardly makes it a mandatory requirement. But it's interchangeable with virtually anything and doesn't cost on the gameplay experience at all, so I don't see much reason to remove it.

Anyway, to keep the subjects flowing, I might as well bring up a couple more examples to fuel the thread.

Chao Gardens: Coming from a Chao enthusiast myself, I can safely say these things are severely overrated, but still have their benefits. The fact that it required you to play the existing games to actually care for your Chao most of the time not only pointed out how incredibly shallow the virtual pet experience actually is on a glance, but in fact also managed to extend the life of the game in that very same aspect that an optional gimmick required main gameplay to function. As with the hub worlds, they're a change of pace but certaintly not for everyone - what made them better, though, was that they weren't required to complete the game, so it doesn't shove its nose where it doesn't belong. Also, there's softcore Chao sex for those that want a cheap thrill, dur hur hur.

Multiple Story perspectives: This one has been on both sides of the fence, and either side has advantages and disadvantages. On one side there's the classic style which has one story path with interchangeable characters - this in itself lessens the level load and keeps the locales familiar, but it can lend the impression you're just playing the same game 3-6 times with no noticable difference (under the assumption that character differences create gameplay differnces - see Angel Island, Sonic 3 / see NOT virtually any Sonic Heroes level). On the modern side of things, the story is told in chunks (the definition of a "chunk" varies between games - sometimes by the character, sometimes by a group) followed by an unlockable final chapter where all of these chunks are united into one. This is great for story purposes, particularly individual character development, but usually restricts characters to specific levels and removes the sense of interchangeability that classic games offered.

[Phos]

...I've repeatedly suggested that these kinds of physics be made lenient and forgiving to allow them to actually work to the player's benefit so as not to turn Sonic into a balance dexterity game...

Preventing this from happening is more the responsibility of the level designer. Simply put, anywhere where the player needs decent control of Sonic is made mostly flat, so you don't have any problem.

On the subject of the grading system, I don't like it because of the shift in mentality it causes. In the new games, it makes a run through a level seem like a bust if you take a hit. Maybe replicate the way Sonic CD works, it has the "time attack" menu specifically set aside for time attack runs. It also seems to me like if you're going to grade the player in a Sonic game, it makes much more sense to record time instead of score.

[Blacklightning]

On the subject of the grading system, I don't like it because of the shift in mentality it causes. In the new games, it makes a run through a level seem like a bust if you take a hit. Maybe replicate the way Sonic CD works, it has the "time attack" menu specifically set aside for time attack runs. It also seems to me like if you're going to grade the player in a Sonic game, it makes much more sense to record time instead of score.

Then why not grade different aspects of player performance seperately? Like say, an A for speed, B for rings, D for enemies defeated etc etc. Of course, like I've said earlier, the problem comes from the fact that the games don't give you a par for how much of whatever you need to get a specific rank (funnily enough, this was something that Sonic '06 actually did perfectly), so a lot of us can't tell whether we've done good or not. Letter rankings or par times, either way or both suits me.

[SuperStingray]

On the subject of the grading system, I don't like it because of the shift in mentality it causes. In the new games, it makes a run through a level seem like a bust if you take a hit. Maybe replicate the way Sonic CD works, it has the "time attack" menu specifically set aside for time attack runs. It also seems to me like if you're going to grade the player in a Sonic game, it makes much more sense to record time instead of score.

I must agree. Removing the grading system puts less pressure on the player and it doesn't make you feel obligated to boost (given that it's present in the game) or move faster than the player wants or needs to, yet the player still has the option to be challenged by the game. But if there's a time attack, there should be a score attack as well. It's been said time and time again that speed isn't the main fun factor in a Sonic game, so it shouldn't be the only thing pushed and practiced.

[Morphed Chaos]

I've basically said this before, but I'd like to see a game just focusing on Sonic, Tails, Amy, Knux, and Eggman, and the fleshing out of said characters, though all but poor Tails(Unless we're counting Chronicles) seem to have greatly improved as of late.

Telling ya, they need to make Cosmo Game-canon, as it would rapidly advance Tails' development.

[Sean]

There are much better ways to iron out character development than through the incorporation of romance. One of the reasons why I never found Shana in Shakugan no Shana to be enduring whatsoever is because of that.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Jake

[Miko]

Sonic Team....

lulz.

[SuperStingray]

Sonic Team....

lulz.

Or any "Sonic Team" at all. Just allocating general efforts on Sonic to one developer is bound to make them begin to tire of the original formula and try to find ways to change it. As they already have.

Edited March 27, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Rusty Spy]

Preventing this from happening is more the responsibility of the level designer. Simply put, anywhere where the player needs decent control of Sonic is made mostly flat, so you don't have any problem.

On the subject of the grading system, I don't like it because of the shift in mentality it causes. In the new games, it makes a run through a level seem like a bust if you take a hit. Maybe replicate the way Sonic CD works, it has the "time attack" menu specifically set aside for time attack runs. It also seems to me like if you're going to grade the player in a Sonic game, it makes much more sense to record time instead of score.

Frankly, I think SA2 did the scoring system perfectly since it didn't punish you for getting hit in most cases, and the ranking depended on score with all the other factors contributing to boosting your score. You didn't have to do everything perfectly, and the best way to score points was to have a good flow through the level while raking up a sufficient amount of points by grabbing lots of rings and chaining enemy kills. There were nearly no levels I can remember aside from Cosmic Wall's 5th mission that didn't expect too much out of you. They provided a good challenge but weren't to harsh and didn't have too high standards.

[Gabz Girl]

A stage that balances over a giant chasm of DEATH. For example Sonic Rush, SAdv2, ShtH and Sonic Heroes. Why do they do this? It's not there for difficulty, just annoyance!

[Eternal EX]

What a sonic game doesn't need? Are you ready for it? Dumb ass fans making topics about what a sonic game dont need or what they dont like about it.

Anyways.. sonic games dont need is bad and lazy programmers! NUFF SAID

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What a sonic game doesn't need? Are you ready for it? Dumb ass fans making topics about what a sonic game dont need or what they dont like about it.

Bud, this isn't like a rant where the topic is about someone venting off on the game and how Sonic Team isn't making the game like they did the genesis. That and it isn't a nice thing, nor is it right to call my friend BL a dumbass for making this topic, because trust me he doesn't believe Sonic Team should listen to the fans either.

Let's loosen up somethings, we can talk about what we approve and disapprove in a Sonic game so long as we don't go off in angry tangents here.

Edited March 28, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Thirsty Pocket]

Hoverboards, or Bobsleds, or anything that counts as a vehicle. Snowboards are fine. Robotnik is allowed to use vehicles.

[Eternal EX]

Bud, this isn't like a rant where the topic is about someone venting off on the game and how Sonic Team isn't making the game like they did the genesis. That and it isn't a nice thing, nor is it right to call my friend BL a dumbass for making this topic, because trust me he doesn't believe Sonic Team should listen to the fans either.

Let's loosen up somethings, we can talk about what we approve and disapprove in a Sonic game so long as we don't go off in angry tangents here.

Uhh I wasn't. I was just giving my opinion on what I thought sooo just chill kid. Plus topics like this are like everywhere and it gets annoying... FAST. 2nd didn't you read the 2nd half of what I said? ....yeah didnt think sooo.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Uhh I wasn't. I was just giving my opinion on what I thought sooo just chill kid. Plus topics like this are like everywhere and it gets annoying... FAST.

I wasn't even mad in the first place (and trust me, you'll know when I am). I thought you were getting on my friend BL when you said all that. My fault man.

And yeah, I know how annoying these topics have been. I've seen them for the past 4-5 years. Nowadays folks are sick of it that any sign of anyone trying to make an issue of something will be shot down fast. I was merely being cautious with your post.

2nd didn't you read the 2nd half of what I said? ....yeah didnt think sooo.

You don't have to be so sarcastic about it.

And on the contrary, I did read the 2nd half of what you said, but it had nothing to do with what I called you out on.

Edited March 28, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Gabz Girl]

Oh yes, here's another thing I should mention that better not appear in any more games.

Vehicles and bikes. WHY does a Sonic character, Shadow for example, need a vehicle if they can run at high speeds and use their abilities, which these slow moving crapmobiles lack?

The last time they were used was Sonic 06. And let it stay that way too.

[Rusty Spy]

Oh yes, here's another thing I should mention that better not appear in any more games.

Vehicles and bikes. WHY does a Sonic character, Shadow for example, need a vehicle if they can run at high speeds and use their abilities, which these slow moving crapmobiles lack?

The last time they were used was Sonic 06. And let it stay that way too.

I assume as long as the vehicles don't do what the characters can already do, I don't see why they can't show up at least once in a while. I do agree if they are major sections in the games. Minor, small sections in certain levels where you ride in a vehicle for a few seconds really shouldn't be that big a deal, and I would like to see them once in a while, IMO.

[SuperStingray]

Oh yes, here's another thing I should mention that better not appear in any more games.

Vehicles and bikes. WHY does a Sonic character, Shadow for example, need a vehicle if they can run at high speeds and use their abilities, which these slow moving crapmobiles lack?

The last time they were used was Sonic 06. And let it stay that way too.

I think they fit better in 06 than Shadow since they actually had a necessary use, but I don't really think it works that well overall in the games unless it's used to enhance the gameplay or fit the storyline. Some good examples of those that come to mind are the Tornado, the Eggmobile Sonic rides in Launch Base Zone, the Monorail on the Egg Carrier or the cart in SatBK.

Edited March 29, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Blacklightning]

Hoverboards, or Bobsleds, or anything that counts as a vehicle. Snowboards are fine. Robotnik is allowed to use vehicles.

I'd agree if you extended that to Tails. Maybe the Babylon Rouges at a stretch.

Vehicles and bikes. WHY does a Sonic character, Shadow for example, need a vehicle if they can run at high speeds and use their abilities, which these slow moving crapmobiles lack?

Sometimes a change of handling can benefit certain situations. One of the reasons the vehicles sucked in ShTH is because it didn't fit the set-pieces they were assigned to, but I can definently see what they were trying to do.

- The introduction of the motorcycle in the good second mission (the one you're trying to gun down a ship in) lets you cruise without having to hold the control stick down, allowing you to focus on aiming while the bike drifts.

- Most of the mini mechs jumped REALLY high, getting you to places you can't normally reach without Chaos Control (which in itself is a finite resource) - the only exception compensates with a mounted machinegun with unlimited ammo, and you'd be lying if you said that wasn't helpful.

- The hovering disc thing protected you from harmful surfaces, but that's a given.

- And as long as we're counting Sonic '06, the glider and hovercraft do their jobs decently considering Shadow can't, umm, fly. Even if the latter has crappy weapons and a tendency to flip over and kill you for no reason.

Yes, I'm aware that vehicles aren't in the least bit necessary (wait, didn't I say that in the OP?), but somehow I feel people give them a little less credit than they deserve. Most of the time they're just level gimmicks you can control, no different to springs or boost pads aside from the fact you have some semblance of control over the process. Again, it's moreso a problem in execution than in concept - the vehicles in ShTH handle poorly and don't have a drifting function (the horrible aiming mechanism doesn't help matters), and for the most part the ones in '06 were too bouncy (among other flaws I can't recall at the moment), but I'm sure we'd all be a little more accepting of the concept if it was at least done properly.

Is it also slightly ironic that Nack is just as guilty as Shadow when it comes to the guns and vehicles yet the fans don't seem to care about it? Food for thought, right there.