Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?

[AAUK]

*fingers in ears* La-la la la la la la.....

[SykoTech]

*fingers in ears* La-la la la la la la.....

Is this what the Storybook team did when making Black Knight? *SHOT*

Joking aside, I don't think that Sonic Team needs to be at our every whim, especially since there are so many different desires from the fans nowadays. I'd go as far as saying they shouldn't bother with the fanbase at all due to this. Most of the request degenerate to "make a game exactly like SA2/Sonic 2" anyways.

But they do need to be aware of the criticisms, and use some common sense when addressing ways to fix the problems. I feel that they did the former in Sonic Unleashed, but not the latter. They realized that people didn't want to play for Sonic's various friends, but they put made Sonic turn into a werehog to remedy that. They also noticed complaints of Sonic games becoming to realistic, but still went with making all the levels based on the real world. And they still didn't bother to even try to handle the MotW-that-turns-on-Eggman thing.

[Nepenthe]

People like to say that Sonic Team's inclusion of the Werehog despite warnings from their colleaques is the smoking gun of incompetence. But I've always wondered, was the dissent due to the fact that the gameplay itself was horrific enough to justifiably earn Unleashed lower scores than Sonic '06, or was it because reception simply wouldn't be ideal because we were in the fallout of a previous disaster? I ask this because when Yuji Naka expressed his own disappointment in the idea, he admittedly reacted like everyone else did who hadn't even touched the game: With displeasure that the idea was merely weird instead of provably inviting to unavoidable gameplay error. These's also the element of hypocrisy wherein some people have stated that the Werehog's gameplay would've been completely fine if Knuckles had been performing it instead, which clearly suggests that these people believe deep down that there's nothing much wrong with the gameplay itself, but rather the character model. Then there's the media reception of the day stages which completely glossed over said stages' flaws, flaws that hardcores will stress actually completely broke the gameplay, while the rest of their criticisms were then mostly leveled at the night stages instead.

It has always seemed to me from the very beginning that the Werehog as much a victim of plain ol' intolerance, perhaps even moreso, than extremely egregious gameplay issues. And if such is the case, then it doesn't necessarily prove Sonic Team's incompetence as developers anymore than colorful squid aliens helping to run amusement parks do; Now that's some weird shit, and I am still aghast that Colors hasn't suffered the same initial reception that other Sonic games have.

Anyways, as for whether Sonic Team should listen to us, I find it irrelevant as to whether they do or not. Fanwank shouldn't get in the way of quality, should it? The two are mutually exclusive. Shadow, '06, and the Black Knight realistically didn't have to do as bad as they did because of their gimmicks. After all, Sonic 4, the most classic game we've had in years, suffered to unprecedented levels of gamer backlash. So at this point, I'm personally neutral on what type of fan input Sonic Team does and doesn't implement in their titles, because at this point it doesn't really seem to even matter anymore.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Tornado]

These's also the element of hypocrisy wherein some people have stated that the Werehog's gameplay would've been completely fine if Knuckles had been performing it instead, which clearly suggests that these people believe deep down that there's nothing much wrong with the gameplay itself, but rather the character model.

That's not hypocrisy. Mostly because I truly doubt that anyone in the fanbase is truly that shallow that they would do a complete spin on their position simply because Sonic Team changed the model used. They would perhaps have less of a problem with it, but that is merely because "the fans wanted Sonic only" does not translate to "the fans will put up with any old shit so long as the character being played is technically Sonic."

Then there's the media reception of the day stages which completely glossed over said stages' flaws, flaws that hardcores will stress actually completely broke the gameplay, while the rest of their criticisms were then mostly leveled at the night stages instead.

The same media that also handed out high scores to shit like Sonic Advance 3? Or the media that went running around singing praises for the Rush games for being like the classic games?

It has always seemed to me from the very beginning that the Werehog as much a victim of plain ol' intolerance, perhaps even moreso, than extremely egregious gameplay issues.

So? Assuming that is true, conceptual idiocy is no less a fault of the developers than technical incompetence. You can create a technically flawless game that plays really well that is still absolutely littered with poor design decisions. I wouldn't create a Teletubbies FPS, for example, which is completely irrelevant to whether it would be the best FPS ever made.

And if such is the case, then it doesn't necessarily prove Sonic Team's incompetence as developers

No. The non-werehog stages did that well enough.

Regardless, when 1/2-2/3rds of their most recent game was a knock-off of a much better game that happened to be really popular when Unleashed started development, even if the knock-off is good it paints the developers as an also-ran at best. Sonic Team made most of their game a knock-off, but they didn't do a particularly good job with it.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Tornado

[Rabbitearsblog]

I do wonder if SEGA really does listen to the fans regarding some of their more controversial choices regarding the franchise over the years.  I mean, I can understand that they can't listen to every single fan regarding story choices or how to portray the characters and sometimes, some of those fan ideas are a little too out there (the numerous Sonic porn stories and wanting to add in so many characters into one story, to name a few).  But, what if the fans are just asking for SEGA to make their characters more likable instead of making them one-note and just try to tell genuinely good stories instead of rushing everything out?  SEGA should at least take some of these criticisms to heart and try to find ways to improve on their products instead of trying to go through with whatever made their products so controversial to begin with and hoping that it sticks, because that can cause more harm than good.

And even though I understand that Sonic is SEGA's product, they could try to be a little less strict with their mandates on how to write the characters when instead, they should let the writers write the characters the way they see fit and only step in if the characterizations of their characters get too out of hand.

[Scritch the Cat]

I’d say maybe not, but 06 sold well and SEGA still listened to criticisms about that.  Granted, that game was broken technically and SEGA was aware of that even before consumers were, but they also subsequently reworked their series based around the strictly conceptual complaints that not only 06, but games leading up to it had.  Making the series more and more 2D, cutting those who weren’t Sonic out of playable roles, and focusing a lot on Classic Sonic were all results of them being influenced by complaints from people who disparaged the Adventure era.

Have things changed since?  Well, PR has reconciled with at least the first half of the Adventure era, but that may be less a case of SEGA feeling a need to listen to the fans than having the good fortune to be staffed by people who are well-acquainted with the fandom.  That they are, though, might be no accident, because this brand was conceived from the start by taking into consideration what people found cool and then doing it, and that has led to some bad things but it’s led to some good things, too.

How financially important is that?  Well I don’t know, but I think it’s irrelevant because when it comes to staying afloat financially, SEGA really doesn’t need to keep making Sonic games AT ALL.  His importance is as their mascot, and they likely care enough to try to keep Sonic’s reputation from getting negative again.  But they may not care about it far beyond that minimum.  Forces wasn’t a big hit with anyone, and neither was TSR, but they didn’t return Sonic to being a huge laughing stock, so whatever.

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I’d say maybe not, but 06 sold well and SEGA still listened to criticisms about that.  Granted, that game was broken technically and SEGA was aware of that even before consumers were, but they also subsequently reworked their series based around the strictly conceptual complaints that not only 06, but games leading up to it had.  Making the series more and more 2D, cutting those who weren’t Sonic out of playable roles, and focusing a lot on Classic Sonic were all results of them being influenced by complaints from people who disparaged the Adventure era.

Have things changed since?  Well, PR has reconciled with at least the first half of the Adventure era, but that may be less a case of SEGA feeling a need to listen to the fans than having the good fortune to be staffed by people who are well-acquainted with the fandom.  That they are, though, might be no accident, because this brand was conceived from the start by taking into consideration what people found cool and then doing it, and that has led to some bad things but it’s led to some good things, too.

How financially important is that?  Well I don’t know, but I think it’s irrelevant because when it comes to staying afloat financially, SEGA really doesn’t need to keep making Sonic games AT ALL.  His importance is as their mascot, and they likely care enough to try to keep Sonic’s reputation from getting negative again.  But they may not care about it far beyond that minimum.  Forces wasn’t a big hit with anyone, and neither was TSR, but they didn’t return Sonic to being a huge laughing stock, so whatever.

I guess that's why SEGA made Sonic Colors because a lot of fans at the time were complaining about how dark and serious the Sonic series was getting, which culminated in the Shadow the Hedgehog game.  But now, some fans are complaining about how goofy the Sonic series was getting, up until Sonic Forces which went back to dark and edgy again.  I feel like this franchise will always go up and down in terms of what kind of tone it sets itself up for overall.

[BadBehavior]

It's interesting how the question as the topic of this thread takes on a slightly different context than it did when it was originally asked. This was before even Colours and Sonic 4 came out. I could just as easily rephrase it as thus:

Quote

As we all know, the Sonic fanbase is a difficult because Sonic fans can't seem to agree on anything and, for the most part, there's this general agreement that the entire franchise went downhill after Sonic Generations and hasn't come back from that tumble. Most Sonic fans would say that a big problem with new games are whacked out game/plot ideas (Lost World, Rise of Lyric), terrible gimmick ideas (Classic Sonic), new characters with each new game, and lastly good concepts but horribly executed games. For that last one I think Forces has to be the best example. Great ideas,especially for the story... but terrible execution for a game that could have been amazing instead of mediocre.

Just goes to prove that if in 10 years we see fans nostalgic for Forces, wishing that Classic Sonic, the Avatar and Infinite would come back, then we are truly stuck in a neverending cycle.

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

It's interesting how the question as the topic of this thread takes on a slightly different context than it did when it was originally asked. This was before even Colours and Sonic 4 came out. I could just as easily rephrase it as thus:

Just goes to prove that if in 10 years we see fans nostalgic for Forces, wishing that Classic Sonic, the Avatar and Infinite would come back, then we are truly stuck in a neverending cycle.

To be fair, none of those elements guarantee a game will suck.  Ok, maybe Infinite is kind of a cringey villain but writing can improve that.  Classic Sonic can be done well, even if in practice he’s usually just a character design used to draw publicity to the brand.  Character creation is a potentially great addition to the series; it seems like a genuine catering to the fandom even if it reminds detractors of one of the most infamous parts of the fandom.  In fact, fan characters are already kind of nostalgic to me.

[BadBehavior]

8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

To be fair, none of those elements guarantee a game will suck.  Ok, maybe Infinite is kind of a cringey villain but writing can improve that.  Classic Sonic can be done well, even if in practice he’s usually just a character design used to draw publicity to the brand.  Character creation is a potentially great addition to the series; it seems like a genuine catering to the fandom even if it reminds detractors of one of the most infamous parts of the fandom.  In fact, fan characters are already kind of nostalgic to me.

I know, I was just observing on the quite humerous connection that Group A were calling for Elements X and Y to be removed/added from the games respectively to make them better, and now Group B are calling for Elements X and Y to be added/removed respectively to make the games better. It's like the entire community is undergoing some kind of Groundhog Day

[Multikaris]

5 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

It's interesting how the question as the topic of this thread takes on a slightly different context than it did when it was originally asked. This was before even Colours and Sonic 4 came out. I could just as easily rephrase it as thus:

Just goes to prove that if in 10 years we see fans nostalgic for Forces, wishing that Classic Sonic, the Avatar and Infinite would come back, then we are truly stuck in a neverending cycle.

I don’t think I I see people who want plot-relevant Wisps or Deadly Six back yet...

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Who cares who Sega listens to when they always follow feedback in the most self destructive stupid way possible?
For God's sake, don't listen to me or try to please me, just go do whatever stupid thing you guys think is right.
No, don't make Sonic Adventure 3 on my behalf. It'll be Classic Sonic in Forces all over again, Superficial Sonic Adventure elements awkwardly jammed into your next psychodelic nightmare game. No thanks.

I think that's the only way we can end this fan complaint Groundhog day cycle, that enough Sonic fans have seen their demands and wishes executed in the most horrific way possible that everyone just stops having any reaction anymore. Too bad Sonic Mania gave the classic fans hope again, so they're encouraged to start squeecking again.
Oh well, nothing a good Sonic 4 episode 3 or Forces 2 can beat out of them again.
 

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

To be fair, none of those elements guarantee a game will suck.  Ok, maybe Infinite is kind of a cringey villain but writing can improve that.  Classic Sonic can be done well, even if in practice he’s usually just a character design used to draw publicity to the brand.  Character creation is a potentially great addition to the series; it seems like a genuine catering to the fandom even if it reminds detractors of one of the most infamous parts of the fandom.  In fact, fan characters are already kind of nostalgic to me.

I agree with this.  I think any of these ideas that SEGA's pushing out right now can actually work better if they were written better.  Like for example, Infinite's character in Sonic Forces could have been one of the most interesting antagonists in Sonic history if they had just written the character much better.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

They listened to fans on Sonic’s look and design in the 2020 Film. So they did listen there. 

[Scritch the Cat]

37 minutes ago, Shadow Chaos Control said:

They listened to fans on Sonic’s look and design in the 2020 Film. So they did listen there. 

Actually, that wasn’t SEGA; it was Paramount. In fact, SEGA also complained about the movie’s original Sonic design, to be rebutted and defied by Paramount, which clearly believed the masses would be more liberal.  Chalk that up as one time that SEGA made the correct assumption.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

Listening to fans is part of the reason SEGA is in the mess they're in now. They try to please everyone, which results in a mess of a series.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

1 hour ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Listening to fans is part of the reason SEGA is in the mess they're in now. They try to please everyone, which results in a mess of a series.

This has merit, fans should be listen to sometimes, but let them exert too much influence over the product, and you get the mess that was The Rise of Skywalker. 

[Rabbitearsblog]

5 hours ago, Shadow Chaos Control said:

This has merit, fans should be listen to sometimes, but let them exert too much influence over the product, and you get the mess that was The Rise of Skywalker. 

I agree.  I don't think it's a good idea to try to please everyone, because you just can't and you just end up putting in various storylines or characterizations of characters that don't really fit the style of the franchise.  It's best to just focus on the fan ideas that actually work for the franchise rather than trying to do something different with the franchise all at once.

[Scritch the Cat]

7 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Listening to fans is part of the reason SEGA is in the mess they're in now. They try to please everyone, which results in a mess of a series.

If SEGA is trying to please everyone, they had me fooled.  A fair amount of us have been complaining that we want to play as other characters again, literally since SEGA took them out after 06, and only in spin-off have they ever granted this.  That we now have gotten to play as the avatar and Shadow in SF is a laughable spit in the bucket.  Meanwhile, who among the fanbase asked for Sonic to become a werewolf?  Who asked for him to have a sword?  Who asked for him to steal multiple ideas from Mario, of all things?!  Nobody, so far as I recall.

No; SEGA isn’t trying to please everyone in the fanbase.  They’ve been trying to please the loudest detractors, in hopes that if these detractors just shut up and people move on from scrutinizing Sonic, they’ll be free to experiment with various gimmicks.  But SEGA is also too afraid that the detractors will come back if they dare return to things like Tails and Knuckles being playable in a 3D game, so they keep bringing in weird shit to fill in the gaps instead.

Then there’s the issue of quality.  The claim that if you try to please everyone at once, you end up pleasing nobody, is true to an extent, but it really places too much stock in concept as the thing that makes or breaks a game.  In truth, execution is a bigger deal.  A game whose concept is not a person’s favorite can still appeal to that person if well done enough.  

Sonic Mania was a good example of this.  Not everyone’s favorite Sonic is Classic Sonic, and not everyone’s favorite game series is any type of Sonic, but they opted to make that specifically, worked hard to make it good, and it was well-received.  There’s something else that I’ll note about Sonic Mania to reinforce this point: Unlike the Sonic games that were less well-received up until that point, Sonic Mania wasn’t relying on new gimmicks to sell it’s concept, because it really HAD no new gimmicks.  Every major thing Mania did in its gameplay had been done before.  On lesser hardware and sometimes over a decade before, but it had been done before.  It had only one way to make its mark doing those old things again; it HAD to do them WELL—and it did.

By contrast, it feels like SEGA-proper often tried to conceive new Sonic games around a gimmick used to lure people in, and that seems like a bad tactic for two reasons.  One, if it works it enables them to underwhelm on execution since people already came in due to curiosity.  Two, it often requires them to spend time and resources getting something new to work.  Sometimes it does work.  But when Sonic’s core gameplay no longer has the wow factor on its own, you’d think they’d want to prioritize regaining that.

[Rabbitearsblog]

49 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

If SEGA is trying to please everyone, they had me fooled.  A fair amount of us have been complaining that we want to play as other characters again, literally since SEGA took them out after 06, and only in spin-off have they ever granted this.  That we now have gotten to play as the avatar and Shadow in SF is a laughable spit in the bucket.  Meanwhile, who among the fanbase asked for Sonic to become a werewolf?  Who asked for him to have a sword?  Who asked for him to steal multiple ideas from Mario, of all things?!  Nobody, so far as I recall.

No; SEGA isn’t trying to please everyone in the fanbase.  They’ve been trying to please the loudest detractors, in hopes that if these detractors just shut up and people move on from scrutinizing Sonic, they’ll be free to experiment with various gimmicks.  But SEGA is also too afraid that the detractors will come back if they dare return to things like Tails and Knuckles being playable in a 3D game, so they keep bringing in weird shit to fill in the gaps instead.

Then there’s the issue of quality.  The claim that if you try to please everyone at once, you end up pleasing nobody, is true to an extent, but it really places too much stock in concept as the thing that makes or breaks a game.  In truth, execution is a bigger deal.  A game whose concept is not a person’s favorite can still appeal to that person if well done enough.  

Sonic Mania was a good example of this.  Not everyone’s favorite Sonic is Classic Sonic, and not everyone’s favorite game series is any type of Sonic, but they opted to make that specifically, worked hard to make it good, and it was well-received.  There’s something else that I’ll note about Sonic Mania to reinforce this point: Unlike the Sonic games that were less well-received up until that point, Sonic Mania wasn’t relying on new gimmicks to sell it’s concept, because it really HAD no new gimmicks.  Every major thing Mania did in its gameplay had been done before.  On lesser hardware and sometimes over a decade before, but it had been done before.  It had only one way to make its mark doing those old things again; it HAD to do them WELL—and it did.

By contrast, it feels like SEGA-proper often tried to conceive new Sonic games around a gimmick used to lure people in, and that seems like a bad tactic for two reasons.  One, if it works it enables them to underwhelm on execution since people already came in due to curiosity.  Two, it often requires them to spend time and resources getting something new to work.  Sometimes it does work.  But when Sonic’s core gameplay no longer has the wow factor on its own, you’d think they’d want to prioritize regaining that.

I agree with this.  Even if the ideas they have sound ridiculous, they can still make the game work if the story is written well.  It feels like SEGA doesn't want to put in any effort to write good stories around these games and that's what's bringing the games down.  If they just focus on writing the characters right and making the stories interesting, then they would be okay.

[ComeAsYouAre]

This thread aged poorly. Pretty interesting to how a lot of the complaints now are the opposite of the complaints of the forum now

 

It's almost as if the problem is with Sega in general being incompetent and not certain elements being inherently bad

[Scritch the Cat]

2 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

This thread aged poorly. Pretty interesting to how a lot of the complaints now are the opposite of the complaints of the forum now

Please clarify this.  Where are those other “complaints now” that are opposite this forum’s complaints, and how so?

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

It's almost as if the problem is with Sega in general being incompetent and not certain elements being inherently bad

To be fair, while elements might not be objectively bad, some do detract from what many people wish the series would be.  If your ideal Sonic has SEGA Genesis-style level design, then boost takes away from that because it doesn’t fit well in such levels and to make it good, levels must be designed differently.  If your ideal Sonic has his supporting cast playable, the Wisps take away from that; in fact they were made to make the cast obsolete.

[ComeAsYouAre]

4 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Please clarify this.  Where are those other “complaints now” that are opposite this forum’s complaints, and how so?

Complaints like "too much characters" and "too much story" and "too many gimmicks" are huge in this thread. Now 10 years later people complain about Sonic being the only playable character, the stories being too simple and the gameplay being boring

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Complaints like "too much characters" and "too much story" and "too many gimmicks" are huge in this thread. Now 10 years later people complain about Sonic being the only playable character, the stories being too simple and the gameplay being boring

And even the attempt to do the opposite was awful, making the prospects much worse for this to happen...

 

Remember Sonic 4? Maybe Forces is like that...