Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?

[Multikaris]

5 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Oh I did. I just explained why I don't care about Forces' half-hearted attempts to meet my criteria of what I want from the games.

Also,

I've been playing Sonic Team's Russian Roulette for years and the only things I can say I won out on is the comics and a mobile game that's a spinoff of a console title that claims to be a love letter to early 2000s games. Everything else that's been released in the 2010s has been either trying so hard to pander to people who want Sonic to remain stagnant in the genesis days (Every main title since Colors) or got screwed over because Sega make last minute demands in order to fulfill other priorities (look up Sonic Synergy). So it's all the more reason why I should be vocal on what I want from the games.

The only reason you refuse to play Mania is spite for critics, though. And yes, the other characters were NOT helpless yes men in the story, they are portrayed better than in previous games if only very slightly. They actually FIGHT, PHYSICALLY in the last few scenes, and not like wimpy civilians like in Boom.

[Scritch the Cat]

58 minutes ago, BadBehavior said:

I meant the "then" was during the Dark Age when they were afraid of game journos and the "now" is the Even Darker Age when they're not. They just shrug off everything critics say nowadays. You pretty much agreed with me.

Nope; I didn’t.  I don’t know what effect the more recent reviews have on SEGA, but the backlash against Sonic’s friends over a decade ago is still infecting the franchise.

[knuckles20]

3 hours ago, Snowragnarok said:

The only reason you refuse to play Mania is spite for critics, though. 

It's not the only reason, there's also my general non-interest with the Classic games despite earlier attempts to play them. If I had to pick a favorite of that era it's easily Sonic the Fighters. I don't hate those games it's just not my cup of tea.

I just don't want to feed into the "Sonic haven't had a good game since 1994" mentality because I firmly disagree with that notion.

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

In short, shit is fucked and will continue to be fucked so as long as Sega continues their approach to making games. And no amount of crying about Sonic Adventure 3 is going to change their minds unless it starts hitting them in their wallets. But good luck convincing people not to buy Sonic games. 

That's never going to happen with me. Because for years I dealt with insufferable morons telling me I'm not a "true Sonic fan" because I prefer games like Adventure 2 and Heroes over Colors and Generations and I shouldn't need to explain to you why that is so aggravating to deal with. Even while I expressed my intense disappointment in Forces from reveal to release not once did I persuade people having optimism for buying the game because I'd be a hypocrite for doing so. If people want to do speed runs in Lost World or wreck shit with their OC in Forces I'm not going to stop them. 

And about the dev team being unable to competently analyze fan feedback or criticism, what's the alternative; stay quiet and waste money on games that aren't going to be fun for me? That hasn't worked for me because that silence tells them I'm completely fine with the state of the games when that's far from the case. So I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to advocate why I haven't enjoyed a Sonic game since 2008 and what I want from the main titles.

[SonicBoom]

So, I clicked that blog at the top of the previous page, and...

Quote

If I seem overly blunt about it, you should realize there's good reason for it - this crap has gone on for TEN YEARS almost uncontested whilst fanboys prance under the hideously mistaken delusion that they somehow know better than Sega AND Sonic Team with absolutely nothing to show for it. To say I'm absolutely sick of it would be a fuckin' understatement.

Quote

The other is a common belief across nearly every franchise greater than five years of age - that they can do better by creating Sonic games exactly as they were in the "olden days" (subjective as that term might be). These two phenomenoms don't work well together, and eventually create the infamous "modern vs classic" debate that will likely persist until the end of fuckin' time. 

Quote

One puzzling attribute I've noticed in today's fandom is that they cannot recognise the very things that they demand to see in a game, even when it is implemented into the game as a key feature. They blindly refuse to admit they're wrong about anything even in the face of such strong evidence and continue to request the same thing over and over, ignorant of Sonic Team's failure to produce a worthwhile game out of it.

I know the author doesn't necessarily see it this way, now, but from a historical perspective, it's notable that these talking points still fit in perfectly with what fans are STILL saying and arguing about now, even though it was written more than 11 years ago. This stuff really has been going on forever.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

 

That's never going to happen with me. Because for years I dealt with insufferable morons telling me I'm not a "true Sonic fan" because I prefer games like Adventure 2 and Heroes over Colors and Generations and I shouldn't need to explain to you why that is so aggravating to deal with. Even while I expressed my intense disappointment in Forces from reveal to release not once did I persuade people having optimism for buying the game because I'd be a hypocrite for doing so. If people want to do speed runs in Lost World or wreck shit with their OC in Forces I'm not going to stop them. 

And about the dev team being unable to competently analyze fan feedback or criticism, what's the alternative; stay quiet and waste money on games that aren't going to be fun for me? That hasn't worked for me because that silence tells them I'm completely fine with the state of the games when that's far from the case. So I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to advocate why I haven't enjoyed a Sonic game since 2008 and what I want from the main titles.

And you're well within your right to do so, and I wasn't trying to tell you otherwise. I'm merely laying out the reality of the situation is all. You're not the first or only person who felt like this, Classic fans felt exactly how you did about ten years ago and still do to an extent. Nobody is happy with how the series is right now besides perhaps the young children who don't really know any better, and will probably be in a similar position as you in about ten years when the series inevitably shifts away from its current direction. 

Like I said, shit is fucked up; nobody knows what to expect, nobody is getting what they want, and it's just bred an extremely toxic and unfulfilling atmosphere in this fanbase, and I don't think Sega really give enough of a damn at properly addressing it without half-assing it. Sonic is a series that is inconsistent and reactionary based on what the trends are at the time. So things will change sooner or later, and maybe some fans will be satisfied or maybe not, I don't know. 

[SonicBoom]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

And you're well within your right to do so, and I wasn't trying to tell you otherwise. I'm merely laying out the reality of the situation is all. You're not the first or only person who felt like this, Classic fans felt exactly how you did about ten years ago and still do to an extent. Nobody is happy with how the series is right now besides perhaps the young children who don't really know any better, and will probably be in a similar position as you in about ten years when the series inevitably shifts away from its current direction.

Agreed. Classic fans were happy, unjaded, uncynical kids in the 90s who loved the series with all their heart, but as they got older, the mainline games had a few stinkers, and Sonic continued to target children, and they grew to resent what it had become. While you could say that Adventure fans are now in the same position, I actually think most of 'em have already been there by now, and are largely maturing past the point of taking it that personally. It's more like... post-Adventure fans are getting to that position. The people who are hovering around 20 years old right now. This is the first set of fans who doesn't share a collective cultural memory of what a disaster Sonic 06 was for the series, and they're pushing harder than ever for elements that were left behind with it to make a return.

I don't know. It's just so damming that nobody except the kids were happy in 2009, and again it seems, nobody except the kids are happy now. Except this time, we've got a vocal group who would prefer wind the series back to the way it was the last time nobody was happy. I guess where a lot of the conflict comes from.

[Kuzu]

Sonic has, and always will be targeted towards kids. That has never changed since Sonic's inception, and if you think otherwise, that's your personal bias speaking. The vocal parts of the fanbase are the ones who fell in love with the series when they were kids and simply want the series to retain the spirit of what they loved as children, and are resentful at how the series has all but dropped the elements that we loved as kids. 

As someone pointed out, Sonic is flawed in many ways, and at its worst, is just straight up awful. But something about the franchise clearly resonates with children as the series is still popular with the demographic and older fans practically cling to their personal nostalgia when they were children. 

It's not sad that children enjoy Sonic, they should be enjoying Sonic. And the opinions of a bunch of grown adults screaming into the void really shouldn't change that at all. 

[SonicBoom]

You're preaching to the choir, there. One of the most heartwarming things about this very terrible year was back in February, seeing so many kids in the theater when I went to see the Sonic movie. And while I don't think it's going to be a popular perspective right now... that's why honestly, I think the best thing Sega can do right now is simply stay the course. That doesn't mean I want more games lacking in depth the way Forces does. Sonic can appeal to both kids AND older fans, no problem, and it ideally would.

But if we take it as given that the cycle so far has looked like this:

1990s: Sonic debuts, and is initially so successful he reshapes the video game industry in Sega's favor.

2000s: Sonic changes enough that fans of the previous era feel like the series isn't what it used to be.

2010s: Sonic returns to a form somewhat more reminiscent of its initial success, earning critical acclaim (with Colors/Generations and Mania in particular), but now fans of the 2000s feel like the series isn't what it was to THEM.

...then suppose Sega were to now go ALL-IN on the style of the 2000s again. All that would do now is CONTINUE the cycle. Say what you will about quality, but Sonic has had a pretty consistent tone and characterization the past 10 years, even in Boom. There are ways to incorporate elements of the 2000s into the games without losing that, of course! (Multiple playstyles akin to Crash 4, more sophisticated storytelling similar to the IDW comics, that sort of thing.)

But if they totally scrap absolutely everything that didn't work in Forces, and reshape the series AGAIN into being exactly like it was 20 years ago, then you've once again abandoned everything the youngest generation of fans knows about Sonic, in favor of appealing to nostalgic 20-somethings. And that just continues the cycle. That's how you'll get a bunch of people yelling about how the series hasn't been good since Forces and Sonic is too "cringy and anime now" by 2030.

[Scritch the Cat]

2 hours ago, SonicBoom said:

Agreed. Classic fans were happy, unjaded, uncynical kids in the 90s who loved the series with all their heart, but as they got older, the mainline games had a few stinkers, and Sonic continued to target children, and they grew to resent what it had become. While you could say that Adventure fans are now in the same position, I actually think most of 'em have already been there by now, and are largely maturing past the point of taking it that personally. It's more like... post-Adventure fans are getting to that position. The people who are hovering around 20 years old right now. This is the first set of fans who doesn't share a collective cultural memory of what a disaster Sonic 06 was for the series, and they're pushing harder than ever for elements that were left behind with it to make a return.

I don't know. It's just so damming that nobody except the kids were happy in 2009, and again it seems, nobody except the kids are happy now. Except this time, we've got a vocal group who would prefer wind the series back to the way it was the last time nobody was happy. I guess where a lot of the conflict comes from.

Adventure fans are probably getting more vocal now because the Classic fans have gotten Sonic Mania, and there isn’t a counterpart game for the Adventure series yet.  Also SM even existing and being a hit gives lie to the idea that Sonic needs to have nobody but Sonic playable In order to be truly Sonic, and that lie, above all else, is what destroyed the Adventure era.  Add in that SM was made by former hackers and fangame developers, and you’ve got what feels like a vindication of the belief that the fans now know more about what Sonic should be than SEGA.  Meanwhile, 3D Sonic fan gaming is coming along; it clearly still has some growing to do, but the more fan projects people play that take heavy inspiration from the Adventure series, the more people will feel “These really aren’t that hard to make, so why doesn’t SEGA?”
 

Bottom line, I don’t think fans of the Adventure era are really languishing from the lack of another game like it.  They might never come around to accepting the sort of Sonic games that have replaced it, but I’m assuming most have lives outside of Sonic the Hedgehog, so they’ll get over the loss.  However, they also see some times as opportune to remind the world that they still exist and still want a third (good) Adventure game.

Among the current reasons the fans might be vocal are:

1) SM making them feel nostalgia is good for the brand and worth pursuing.

2) SF convincing them that boost won’t ever surpass what it was in SG and likely will get worse instead; also that Classic Sonic is no longer a novelty.

3) TSR calling back to character relationships not seen since the Adventure era.

4) Mobile games calling back to that era.

5) Sonic’s official YouTube and other social media reconciling with that era.

6) The increased prominence of Jun Senoue after a multi-game absence.

[Eurisko]

Does Sega have to listen to us? No.

But I think they try to listen to the rational sensible side of the fandom as much as they can but I'd dare say It's probably a nightmare at times wading through the ocean of "WAH WAH!! This game doesn't live up to my expectations and I will boycott everything Sonic if they don't give my entitled self everything I want" fans.

 

[Rabbitearsblog]

3 hours ago, Eurisko said:

Does Sega have to listen to us? No.

But I think they try to listen to the rational sensible side of the fandom as much as they can but I'd dare say It's probably a nightmare at times wading through the ocean of "WAH WAH!! This game doesn't live up to my expectations and I will boycott everything Sonic if they don't give my entitled self everything I want" fans.

 

I think that's the problem that SEGA has to deal with.  Just which part of the fandom should they listen to?  While you do want to take some input from the fandom, there are some fans who have ideas for the franchise that's either way too crazy or is too one sided.  Like for example, you have some fans who want Shadow to be an edgy character, but they don't really go into detail about whether or not he should be a well-rounded character or just be edgy without any depth.

[Scritch the Cat]

5 hours ago, Eurisko said:

Does Sega have to listen to us? No.

But I think they try to listen to the rational sensible side of the fandom as much as they can but I'd dare say It's probably a nightmare at times wading through the ocean of "WAH WAH!! This game doesn't live up to my expectations and I will boycott everything Sonic if they don't give my entitled self everything I want" fans.

 

Much as there really are some infamous blubbering imbeciles in this fandom, I don’t like how you’re implying that there’s something particularly wrong with refusing to buy Sonic games.  If something isn’t what I want then there’s no shame in not buying it; nor has there ever been any shame in assuming that Sonic games will be broken after we’ve had multiple embarrassing wipeouts; all as a result of SEGA screwing over the development process.  This isn’t about giving me everything I want; it’s about living up to what should be reasonable expectations of a company based on what that company has been able to do before.

[Multikaris]

14 hours ago, SonicBoom said:

You're preaching to the choir, there. One of the most heartwarming things about this very terrible year was back in February, seeing so many kids in the theater when I went to see the Sonic movie. And while I don't think it's going to be a popular perspective right now... that's why honestly, I think the best thing Sega can do right now is simply stay the course. That doesn't mean I want more games lacking in depth the way Forces does. Sonic can appeal to both kids AND older fans, no problem, and it ideally would.

But if we take it as given that the cycle so far has looked like this:

1990s: Sonic debuts, and is initially so successful he reshapes the video game industry in Sega's favor.

2000s: Sonic changes enough that fans of the previous era feel like the series isn't what it used to be.

2010s: Sonic returns to a form somewhat more reminiscent of its initial success, earning critical acclaim (with Colors/Generations and Mania in particular), but now fans of the 2000s feel like the series isn't what it was to THEM.

...then suppose Sega were to now go ALL-IN on the style of the 2000s again. All that would do now is CONTINUE the cycle. Say what you will about quality, but Sonic has had a pretty consistent tone and characterization the past 10 years, even in Boom. There are ways to incorporate elements of the 2000s into the games without losing that, of course! (Multiple playstyles akin to Crash 4, more sophisticated storytelling similar to the IDW comics, that sort of thing.)

But if they totally scrap absolutely everything that didn't work in Forces, and reshape the series AGAIN into being exactly like it was 20 years ago, then you've once again abandoned everything the youngest generation of fans knows about Sonic, in favor of appealing to nostalgic 20-somethings. And that just continues the cycle. That's how you'll get a bunch of people yelling about how the series hasn't been good since Forces and Sonic is too "cringy and anime now" by 2030.

Well, the success of the franchise tends to dip after three games in an era, giving fans more fuel to protest against it. 

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, Snowragnarok said:

Well, the success of the franchise tends to dip after three games in an era, giving fans more fuel to protest against it. 

Your post made me think.  Arguably, the present era of Sonic games, at least mechanically speaking, is older than many realize and comprises quite a lot more than three games.  Boost debuted in Sonic Rush, and precursors of what much of the boost   would be in 3D were to be found in Sonic 06 and Secret Rings.  Since then almost no game passes that doesn’t rely on excessive “dodge these things while moving forward at high speed” segments.  

Meanwhile, such “auto-runners” have become ubiquitous in the mobile market.  Lots of series have them; even Mario.
 

Now granted, there’s more to boost Sonic than there is to auto-runner games, but there’s still a lot less compared to what Sonic could be.  This boost formula is thus rather problematic; in very different ways from infamous past innovations like fishing and guns, but in a way it’s almost worse.  Those bits fe

As much as they felt mbarrassingly out of place and weren’t well-executed, at least they caused enough backlash that SEGA axed them quickly.  Meanwhile, dodging things while running fast is a perfect fit for Sonic, but as a result of it being shoved into that perfect fit, now Sonic doesn’t have the unique identity it once did, since lots of other characters are doing that too.  There’s also probably only so much you can do with that basic premise, but then there’s only so far SEGA can venture out of it without venturing back into territory that they could never quite manage to make work.

[Big-C]

Should SEGA listen to us? I mean, in some ways they should but at the same time, who the hell are they gonna listen to? This fandom has so many different types of fans that there's no way that they can try to please us all at once and it working out in the end. Case in point, Sonic Forces. That game brought back the Boost gameplay for the Modern fans, Classic Sonic for the Classic fans, and a return to a more serious story for the Adventure games. It's beating a dead horse at point but I really don't care. We all know how much of a half baked mess that game turned out to be by trying to please everyone.

It feels like no matter what SEGA does, a section of the fandom will be disappointed. They listened to older/Classic fans and critics a decade ago by removing Sonic's friends, humans, the serious tone. But oh wait, the kids who loved those games are all grown up now. They're now in the same position that the Classic fans were in years ago except they want those elements that defined 2000s era Sonic to return. It's like a cycle because it won't be long until the same thing happens to the next generation of fans.  So should SEGA listen to us? I have no idea at this point. 

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Big-C said:

Should SEGA listen to us? I mean, in some ways they should but at the same time, who the hell are they gonna listen to? This fandom has so many different types of fans that there's no way that they can try to please us all at once and it working out in the end. Case in point, Sonic Forces. That game brought back the Boost gameplay for the Modern fans, Classic Sonic for the Classic fans, and a return to a more serious story for the Adventure games. It's beating a dead horse at point but I really don't care. We all know how much of a half baked mess that game turned out to be by trying to please everyone.

Have they ever said that’s what they intended with the game?  Because I think that there are far more likely explanations.  Boost likely came back because it had been going on for a long time, and Sonic Lost World wasn’t a big hit.  Classic Sonic might very well be in just to capitalize on Mania.  The shoehorned plot about the Phantom Ruby most definitely is.  The idea of creating one’s own character WAS a result of them noticing fan culture, but I don’t recall many people asking for that feature.

[Eurisko]

18 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Much as there really are some infamous blubbering imbeciles in this fandom, I don’t like how you’re implying that there’s something particularly wrong with refusing to buy Sonic games.  If something isn’t what I want then there’s no shame in not buying it; nor has there ever been any shame in assuming that Sonic games will be broken after we’ve had multiple embarrassing wipeouts; all as a result of SEGA screwing over the development process.  This isn’t about giving me everything I want; it’s about living up to what should be reasonable expectations of a company based on what that company has been able to do before.

If you read it again you'll see nowhere did I say that there's something wrong with refusing to buy a Sonic game I WAS however was alluding and.....yeah ok making jab at the attitudes of people who do. 

Some of the reasons people do give are hilarious.

[Scritch the Cat]

12 hours ago, Eurisko said:

If you read it again you'll see nowhere did I say that there's something wrong with refusing to buy a Sonic game I WAS however was alluding and.....yeah ok making jab at the attitudes of people who do. 

Some of the reasons people do give are hilarious.

Well, I don’t see how that’s constructive.  If SEGA thought along those lines about the majority of the fandom, they could either just stop making Sonic games or keep making them, but without the intention of pleasing any particular people.  This is not going to change what people are assuming is a symptom of listening; that is, weird gimmicks showing up in their games and not being well done.  Again, those happen because SEGA needs things to pad out games that would otherwise be too short.  The main way complaints actually factor into that is determining which gimmicks are discontinued and which gimmicks remain or get revived.  Hence fishing didn’t, obviously, but the forced 2D segments, some played as Classic Sonic, have.  Granted, the latter also have their detractors, but not as many or as loud, especially since they don’t have an obnoxious character attached to them.  As noted in my initial post, I think SEGA might be satisfied so long as audiences (Whether Sonic fans, professional critics, Sonic detractors, or sometimes some combination thereof) are merely underwhelmed; not mad and mocking.  Of course, being consistently underwhelmed can translate to low sales, so ultimately money talks.
 

Edit: I have something else to add to this.  All of this talk about whether SEGA should or shouldn’t listen to fans about what Sonic should be might well be irrelevant, because even if they don’t they’re almost certainly going to hear and heed some feedback from critics.  In fact, back when I was most engaged with this series, I was vocal in my preferences specifically because I thought critics weren’t being fair to Sonic, and were creating a false narrative about what Sonic used to be and should be again.  SEGA could pretty easily avoid consumer chatter but it’s harder to ignore critics who themselves have huge audiences.  
 

For example, Game Grumps.  Probably the entities most responsible for this series getting the new reputation that it caters to the haters.  But as absurd as that sounds initially, a look into business politics might give insight as to why.  Companies generally don’t want to expose themselves to outsider ideas for their series, out of fear that they’ll get sued for using them and not giving the ideas’ originator’s a fair deal.  The debacle with Penders must have made SEGA particularly wary of that.  In my experience browsing forums like these for discussions about what Sonic should be, most people will just suggest it does more of something if did already, even if it hasn’t done that for years.  But inevitably in those discussions will be some people who offer outright ideas, like a brand new control scheme, and that’s what companies want to avoid absorbing for fear of being accused of appropriating it without permission and/or payment.  The advantage of consulting people with clearly negative opinions is they’re more likely just to say what Sonic should not be.

However, I won’t deny that SEGA has gone much too far with that.  In retrospect, “fixing” this series just by taking things out hasn’t been much of an improvement, especially since the holes left inevitably get filled with things that aren’t always better.

[Eurisko]

My answer was a Little sarcastic and god forbid added a little humour. 

Good Lord

[Scritch the Cat]

I think to play it safe, striking a balance between listening to people and keeping things manageable, SEGA could conduct surveys.  These could have things like “Name three favorite Sonic games“, and then go on with more branching based on what they choose, with “What three things do you like most about Sonic Adventure 2?”

[Natie]

There's a lot of really educated, well-articulated, long essays analyzing just about everything about Sonic now that I don't remember seeing at all back in the old days.

I think there's a bit more worth listening to these days compared to the days of "Green eyes!" and "Sonic's shitty friends". Especially considering how like, everyone suddenly figured out how to make a 3D Sonic game with a fun core all at once lol.

 

[Guergy]

Sometimes I wonder if SEGA looks into those essays or feedback? It seems as though even though that while fans explained what SEGA did wrong, they took the wrong lessons from those reviews. 

[Wraith]

 I've seen Aaron talk about watching at least some, but I don't know if he or anyone else in the company made a habit of it.

I guess it's a good way to keep your ear on the ground of what the hardcore sonic fans are thinking, but I'm not sure how much help a video essay would be to the average developer anyway. A lot of those videos are well made, but ideas are the easiest part and most don't survive the reality of game development for one reason or another. 

[Scritch the Cat]

57 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 I've seen Aaron talk about watching at least some, but I don't know if he or anyone else in the company made a habit of it.

I guess it's a good way to keep your ear on the ground of what the hardcore sonic fans are thinking, but I'm not sure how much help a video essay would be to the average developer anyway. A lot of those videos are well made, but ideas are the easiest part and most don't survive the reality of game development for one reason or another. 

I’m not sure how true that is outside of this brand.  I think if a game is made successfully, it will reflect a guiding vision for it rather well.  Some plans may fall by the wayside, but if a game just abandons any definitive objective and just gets cobbled together haphazardly and then spills out, it won’t be a very good game.

[Wraith]

32 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I’m not sure how true that is outside of this brand.  I think if a game is made successfully, it will reflect a guiding vision for it rather well.  Some plans may fall by the wayside, but if a game just abandons any definitive objective and just gets cobbled together haphazardly and then spills out, it won’t be a very good game.

You'd be surprised. A lot of really amazing games came together at the last minute. Hideki Kamiya is one of the best in the industry and basically every project he was on went like this.