References to the classics

[batson]

You know, sometimes it almost feels like the post-Sonic Adventure games take place in a completely different continuity than the 16-bit games. The entire world of Sonic looks and sounds so different. And even if Sega insists on doing the new games in a different style than the classics, couldn't they at least insert a few more references to the old games storywise?

The first Sonic Adventure is the only 3D Sonic game that, in my opinion, actually feels like it takes place in the "old" Sonic universe, despite the graphical changes. For one thing, the story largely concerns elements introduced in the classics, like the whole thing with Angel Island, the Master Emerald and the lost echidna race. And also, Gammas story expands on the iconic scenario of Eggman imprisoning animals inside robots (which was such a major part of the classic games, and in fact pretty much the entire story behind the first game). And there were also so many little things, like Sonic's classic jumping sound-effect, the capsules with animals inside at the end of every level, ect. And to this day, this game remain the only 3D Sonic game where the characters make direct references to specific events in the classics namely Amy remembering the events in CD and Sonic commenting that Knuckles had been fooled by Eggman before. Also, there was Tails flashback to when he first met Sonic, which was pretty much a re-enactment of a scenario mentioned in the Jpanese Sonic 2 manual. Oh, and lets not forget Metal and Mecha Sonic's cameo.

I just dont get it. Why dont any other new games reference the classics like this? I mean, they often reference events that happened in other new Sonic games. Why cant they ever have Sonic mentioning Green Hill Zone, or Eggman re-building his Egg Robo's? The only other new Sonic game that had a mentionable number of references like these was Chronicles, and that wasn't even made by Sega...

Thoughts?

[Sean]

Because the new games are not only being developed by people who had no involvement in any of the older games, but because older Sonic fans are not the target demographic for these new games.

[Phos]

Because the new games are not only being developed by people who had no involvement in any of the older games, but because older Sonic fans are not the target demographic for these new games.

Not stopping them from doing it, though.

[SuperStingray]

Because the new games are not only being developed by people who had no involvement in any of the older games, but because older Sonic fans are not the target demographic for these new games.

I don't think that's really a good reason for it. No one can go forward without going backward. And frankly, I don't think they should have set a demographic in the first place. Sonic started out as an all ages type of game and limiting that to the yung'uns is only going to cut sales.

Further more, while I don't think Sonic's COMPLETELY out of touch with his background, the gap is growing strong. I still think Sonic Team should look closer at where Sonic's coming from. I mean, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, among many other old games, all have enemies, music and environments that were there since day one in virtually every game, so why shouldn't Sonic

Edited March 27, 2009 by SuperStingray

[batson]

but because older Sonic fans are not the target demographic for these new games.

But what harm could just a couple of hints to the older games do? I cant imagine that would make the new games less appealing to the younger generation.

Oh and another thing: why cant they ever remix some MUSIC from the classics and put in the new games? I thought about this as i was playing TBK, and i noticed how many songs from previous 3D games was reused, either in their original forms or as remixes. Sega obviously put these songs in so that the Sonic fans playing the game would recognize them and see them as a nostalgic treat (really, who else but the fans would recognize them at all?) Well, then why the fudge not put some remixes of 16-bit era music in there as well? For instance, what possible reason could they have for NOT having a remix of a CLASSIC Sonic song during the fan art movie? Wouldn't a Green Hill Zone remix have fitted perfectly?

Grrr, i hate it how Sega just ignores Sonic's golden years like this.

[Sean]

What's the point of getting a shout-out from developers who probably aren't familiar with the older games, anyway?

A shout-out from one of the original developers would be more meaningful. Either way, it's just fanservice that Sega won't be bothering with. I'm not terribly bothered over it myself.

[batson]

it's just fanservice that Sega won't be bothering with.

But then why do they have so much fanservice in the form of hints to other newer Sonic games?

[Sean]

Erm, perhaps because the newer Sonic games try to uphold some convoluted sense of continuity among the post-SA1 games.

[Blacklightning]

Why dont any other new games reference the classics like this?

why cant they ever remix some MUSIC from the classics and put in the new games?

I don't suppose it ever occured to you that they're trying to make a decent GAME first and foremost? Come on, man, they have better things to do than that.

It's not like they can't throw in nostalgic references either way but to me hinting at the classics in a crap game comes off as a bit of a cocktease sometimes. Much like how Sonic '06 practically copied the first stage of SA1 and nobody really gave a shit. Me, I don't mind either way. It is kinda neat when they throw some old material in every now and then, but if the game I'm playing is still all-round unenjoyable, it won't mean a thing to me.

[batson]

Come on, man, they have better things to do than that.

Well apparently not, considering the "Hey Shadow, remember that day we raced here?" and the It Doesn't Matter-remix and other crap like that.

If they have time to put in hints to other new-era games than why not the classics?

[Blacklightning]

Well apparently not, considering the "Hey Shadow, remember that day we raced here?" and the It Doesn't Matter-remix and other crap like that.

The former was a direct plot sequel (so as to warrant a reference of that kind) and the latter was a character theme (of which were nonexistent in your "classics", aside from Knux). What's your point? Edited March 27, 2009 by Blacklightning

[Tyranno]

Because what about those games is there TO reference?

Seriously. The Master Emerald keeps coming up enough, but what story worth could be find in putting in gratuitous throwbacks?

Okay, Robotnik built a giant warship. That's really story relevant.

And I think you're all forgetting Heroes, anyway. Besides Metal Sonic's presence alone being a throwback, there's also Knuckles' "we have giant mushrooms on my island."

[HungryJack]

The current Sonic games have plenty of throwbacks if you look closely enough:

ShtH's Circus Park theme is a remix of Carnival Night from Sonic 3, and the floating drums are the same as well.

Sonic Unleashed has a remix of the Sonic 1 Game Gear ending theme in the Mazuri day stage.

Sonic Chronicles' story ties heavily into S3&K's story as well as Sonic Adventure's.

Sonic 06 features the song Sweet Dreams from Sonic 2.

Shadow's very design may be based off of the mural in the Hidden Palace from S3&K, but this is mostly fan speculation.

Sonic Rivals' Forest Falls is reminiscent of Green Hill Zone.

Sonic Heroes' Seaside Hill features the checkerboard hills like the Genesis games had, not to mention the look and feel of the casino levels were pulled straight from Sonic 2.

The Chaotix being reintroduced in Heroes is a throwback if I ever saw one.

Edited March 27, 2009 by HungryJack

[123654]

Just because older fans aren't the target demographic anymore doesn't mean there shouldn't be any story references to the older games. That's what continuity is for.

But Heroes' plot contained large references to CD and Chronicles had references to previous games to the point of fanservice, so maybe this loose continuity thing is going to change.

[Gatestormer]

I would always like it if the characters would mention past times they've had in the games, most importantly the classics. I always figured the reason being that the series is mainly aimed at younger people, who wouldn't have been alive during the classic era and therefore would have no idea what was going on.

I was born in 1992 so I was a little late, and I didn't know about or ever see Sonic 1-3K until Sonic Mega Collection on the GC, if Sonic had made references to the Death Egg in SA2 I'd have no idea what the hell he was talking about.

However, there's also the argument that....do younger children even care?

[SuperLink]

I want more classic Sonic music, and that's all. The Advance series did a good job, and Green Hill Zone's music is constantly whored; but when playing Black Knight, using the character's themes from Adventure made me think "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if they used Knuckles' theme from S3&K instead of Unknown from M.E?" So yeah I'd like to see that.

[Eileanach]

As much as I like the original Sonic series up until Sonic Adventure, you need to remember that SEGA are trying to bring in new fans all the time if Sonic remained one big massive story line from Sonic 1 up until Sonic and the Black Knight it would be VERY difficult to follow and not many newbies would come into the fandom to experience the game. So, whilst it is a nice thing to think about I don't think SEGA would ever do that as it is of no real benefit to them and they are not trying to keep the original fans in there (they already have a firm grip of the original Sonic fans) they just want more in to make more money and keep flogging a dead horse so to speak.

Music wise? It's quite different playing a Sonic game these days in comparison to the older ones I agree, but, to take 16-bit music or whatever it is and stick remixes of it into new games? I don't think it would work out too well, people want fresh music and as awesome as some of the old music from the Sonic games are no one really cares so long as the music in the up to date games aren't a mass of ear raping horribleness.

[Scarecrow]

It's a case of perspective. Sonic Adventure referenced those games because they were relativly recent, eight years old maximum and it was always related to the characters and their last events. But time moves on. Heroess references CD becaus eit's Metal Sonic. It also references SA1's Egg Carrier which by that point was only a few years old, and Shadow makes reference to space from the previous game. And time moves on more. Suddenly we're in 2009, SA2 is 8 years old (like Sonic CD at the time of SA1) and we get re-mixes of SA2 songs. For the modern young audience, the SA1+ games are the same age / same level of old and notalgia as the Sonic 2D games were to SA1. Simply, the games are referring to the past as much as they always did but, just as they always did, it's only to the *recent* past, and really, there's little genuine need to go back much further, even for the character sit was a long time ago!

- Scarecrow

[Djawed]

The answer is simple

Sonic team was cool back then

They suck today

We don't need to look much further then that.

The way you described sonic adventure 1 is the reason why i don't like todays sonic ganes,, everything after just felt weird for someone that has been playing sonic since the first.

After it it was like wtf? and it get more and more with the times.. i really hate it but hey.. why should sonicteam care about us i mean we just complain all the time right

[Gatestormer]

The answer is simple

Sonic team was cool back then

They suck today

We don't need to look much further then that.

The way you described sonic adventure 1 is the reason why i don't like todays sonic ganes,, everything after just felt weird for someone that has been playing sonic since the first.

After it it was like wtf? and it get more and more with the times.. i really hate it but hey.. why should sonicteam care about us i mean we just complain all the time right

...Well you do at least.

[Frobman]

The biggest reference they all have is Sonic himself! (Couldn't resist that cruddy joke)

Eh, one or two old references wouldn't hurt a bit. I think it's mostly due to developers having bits of fun when making the games. Heck, it's something I'd do time to time when making stuff, adding in odd bits of references in the backgrounds.

And now I think about it, Sonic has less music remixes when compared to the likes of Nintendo and Castlevania games.

And people neglected to mention the Dreamcasts in all Sonic Unleashed stuff.

[SykoTech]

Chronicles had a Classic reference.

Sonic and Tails talk about the "good times" they had in Green Hill Zone when Eggman enslaved the animals by making them robots. They also had a Genesis cameo, if that counts.

Still, I would like to see more. I would have loved to have heard Sonic reference the Death Egg when on the Space Colony ARK in SA2.

[JezMM]

Sonic Heroes had Knuckles talking about the Mushroom Hill Zone during Frog Forest don't forget. "There are huge mushrooms like this on Angel Island too..."

Anyway, I think it's too far down the series chronology for characters to talk about REALLY old stuff like the Death Egg. If anything it should have been mentioned in SA2 due to the ARK looking similar, but too late now.

I prefer references to recent games anyway... thanks to them actually having dialogue and lots of variety in the scenes, there's far more material to refer to.

I mean, if they did ever reference an old game, it'd be nice, but I don't really care if they never do. In case anyone hadn't noticed, Sonic doesn't tend to hang around in the past that much. This was true of even the old games. Ever seen a Crabmeat badnik since Sonic 1? Sonic Advance and Sonic 2 8-bit had variations of them I guess, but that's it. And they're one of the most iconic. They prefer each game to feel fresh and new, which I don't blame them for.

Nintendo games have a much "warmer" cosy feeling to them, so the fact that 50% of the envioronments and enemies are familiar seems okay.

Sonic games however are always a fresh new adventure each time... so yeah.

Edited March 27, 2009 by JezMM

[Link451]

My guess is that the developers just think it's unimportant. They only want to follow with what story they have present at the time.

I agree with Blacklightning, though. If the gameplay is good, I don't give a crap whatsoever about references to the old games.

[123654]

Chronicles had a Classic reference.

Sonic and Tails talk about the "good times" they had in Green Hill Zone when Eggman enslaved the animals by making them robots. They also had a Genesis cameo, if that counts.

Still, I would like to see more. I would have loved to have heard Sonic reference the Death Egg when on the Space Colony ARK in SA2.

That dialog struck me as sort of odd because

Tails had never been the the Green Hill Zone in previous games, from what I could tell

.