An atheist remark

[Pelly <3's U]

Ok so the other day I was hanging out with a group of friends. I don't even remember how the conversation went but I one point I remarked something along the lines of...

'Oh thank god.....oh wait he doesn't exist'

Cue explosion. There was this girl hanging with us (who I'm friends with and still am lool) who is pretty religious, and she took a lot of offense to this statement. She said I was being disrespectful of her and that I shouldn't say stuff like that. Now I countered to her that she is always saying stuff definitively about god, and when she does I don't counter it. She'll say things such as: 'well I have Jesus to thank for that', 'God is protecting me/us right now', 'Thank god', 'The lord is with me on this', and other various things that basically affirm her saying god is real. Her facebook is completely decked out with stuff like 'I know Jesus is real, he's all our saviors and he's with me everyday' and she reprimands people for taking the lords name in vain quite a bit. I told her that she can't except to be able to say stuff like that, and not give people the right to as well.

She didn't seem to agree with this and we debated for quite awhile. She said that I shouldn't act as thought my beliefs are the right ones, and I told her that if someone said 'Is god real?' she would say yes, not I believe he is real.....and that I should have the same right to. I also told her I don't take offense when she says god is real because I respect her ability to believe what she wants (I don't respect her beliefs though, but that's a whole other topic) but it's a double sided coin. She told me that it's different because she takes offense and I don't, which I pretty much called BS on because I told her I could just as easily take offense to her statements and just chose not to as I honestly do think she has the right to her beliefs, and I'm not going to spend my time controlling the world.

All and all we didn't get anywhere, but it was kind of a fun debate. So now I'm bringing it here and asking what you guys think about it. Is it really a double standard that someone can talk about God without having to insert I think or I believe, but if an Atheist declares he doesn't exist then it's an attack? Or do you have a different perspective on this? Sorry if the topic is kinda rushed and hard to follow, I'm in a bit of a rush myself.

[Urtheart]

Simply going to say depends on context. Honestly it sounded like a joke from where I am standing, but then again I know people (or a group) who get really pissed off at me when I claim that I can belive in religion, yet accept that science is true at the same time (I get crap like, fossils aren't real, God put them there and Carbon Dating is a trick he made to test the unfaithful).

Actually it brings up something the infamous Roareye Black said to me.

Can't remember it exact but something like "I have my beliefs (related to vegetrianism) but I hate anyone that pushes them on others, I wouldn't want other people to be vegitarian, I just don't like the taste of meat."

[turbojet]

Is it really a double standard that someone can talk about God without having to insert I think or I believe, but if an Atheist declares he doesn't exist then it's an attack?

Yes. Then again, if she were really your friend, she should have known that you are an atheist and that you are a snarker. Put two and two together, she should be cool with it and shouldn't have blown it out of proportion like she did. Plus, your friend should act Christ-like, not like a Christian zealot.

This is coming from a person who believes in historical Christ beliefs and not Biblical.

[thesketchsector]

Raised catholic, sort'a religious, but don't really feel offended.

It's the 21st century and people have tons of beliefs, people are entitled to their belief in god, but equally athiests are just as much entitled to believe otherwise.

[azoo]

I get peoples' sides with their remarks, but it still bothers me on all cases.

I believe in science and evolution and all of that, but I still believe that God exists and so does his Son, Jesus Christ. It's just that I take the evolution of anything as God taking what he thinks is best for his creation(s) and improving it for the better. And I consider things like Carbon Dating and atoms and molecules and elements as God's neat little building blocks he created to put together and make his creations with.

That said, I don't like to prance around my beliefs until somebody shoves theirs down my throat to begin with. I let people believe what they want to believe. If they had their chance to join my beliefs and denied it, then I will subtlely teach it to them, and if they outright blaspheme God, I let them do what they please and leave them be; but never do I yell at people for what they believe in, or ever try to make it a large impact on people, even though it's a huge impact on me and my actions. I only react when people act like absolute buttholes and announce to the world "LOL THERE IS NO GOD YOU GUYS WITH RELIGION ARE ALL STEEEUUUUUPID" is when I pull out the big guns and the debates begin.

And for the record, even God said himself not to prance around with your faith aloud and pretend to be so into God. He doesn't accept the people who will pray in public and state how they love God constantly just to get publicity. If you haven't noticed, many of the people that act this way may be the same exact people that drug most now-atheists away from the religion in the first place.

I love everybody, no matter their sins, race, religion (or non-religion lol), or sexual orientation. Just don't enforce and impose your way of life on me and we're fine.

Jesus loves you guise.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Azukara

[-Mark-]

I'm all for 'each to their own', 'live and let live' and similar remarks, but it annoys me when you speak to certain Christians, and once they get wind that you're atheist, their attitude will change and they'll almost start looking down on you like you're some unenlightened, pitiable idiot.

This happened to me at work once with a colleague. Okay, she wasn't going about it in a horrible way by any means, but what she was basically saying in the nicest way possible was "Oh, you poor, blind, misled idiot. Here, have a pamphlet to help you believe in God as well", before throwing out the question "Where do you think the Universe came from then?" to try and prove herself 'right'.

Again, each to their own, but it doesn't give anyone the right to go around talking and acting as though their beliefs are right. Because that's all they are- beliefs. If someone says "I believe God is real", then fine. If they start stating it as fact and using it to lord it over everyone who doesn't agree (excuse the pun), then it's just plain irritating. I'm letting them believe what they want. I'm not trying to disprove their God just because I personally don't believe in him, so why should they try and push belief of his existence on others? Okay, maybe in their eyes they see it as trying to help/ save the unenlightened, but it's just irritating.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Mahzes

[Emperor Robrainiac]

LOL DON'T YOU KNOW EVERYONE WHO USES THE INTERNET AND PLAY GAMES ARE ATHEISTS?

Just something I noticed. Alot of people on the internet is an atheist. And I respect that. You belive in god? Fine. You don't? Fine.

I've been raised in a very religous family and we've been drifting away from our gatherings because of how long we've been gone, and how poorly the others often treat us. Does it affect how we belive in god? No, because I belive in him.

But I don't judge people for what they belive in. Most of my friends are athiests and they're probably the nicest bunch of people I've ever met. Heck they were even nicer than the jerks and brats at the gatherings that I've ever gone to. O:

I guess I should come out of the closet now and say I used to be a Jehovah's Whitness. That's right, I used to be a member one of the most infamous religons (or as some called it around these boards, a cult.) Because the people there can be huge buttheads if you don't do whatever makes them happy, My parents wont go to the gatherings any more. I still hold firm beliefs in the religion, but the people in it were huge jerks to us. It kinda saddens how these people act around other religions and people who don't believe in what they belive in, because it gives them such a bad rep.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Inferno da danged recolor

[eXtaticus]

I'm not really friends with any religious people, so I can be as rude, crass, childish, and ignorant as I like; nobody will be offended, as nobody can hear me.

I wont lie; I make atheist remarks all the time - I just don't say them within earshot of any religious folk.

Just like racist remarks.

And ageist remarks.

And sexist remarks.

And...

Edited June 8, 2010 by Extaticus

[-Mark-]

LOL DON'T YOU KNOW EVERYONE WHO USES THE INTERNET AND PLAY GAMES ARE ATHEISTS?

I'd imagine that perhaps more gamers are atheists because, like myself, they'd rather spend time gaming and can't be arsed with something as trivial and pointless (OPINION!) as religion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's a big double standard that needs dealing with.

In short, her logic seems to follow this:

-If you believe God exists, you are right...

-If you don't believe God exists, you are wrong...

And honestly, she was being the more offensive one when it comes to that debate, and the more closed-minded one to boot. It's kind of ironic how an Atheist can be okay with people believing in God without believing in one themselves, where as Christians and likely other monothiestic religions are offended by people who don't believe in God, and that's the kind of religious zealousness that I frankly think needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Not to say that people shouldn't believe in a God (I'm agnostic, so I really sit in the middle), but that the zealots who do are carrying their beliefs in the most arrogant manner without realizing it.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

I have to admit that I don't give much thought to this kind of situation because I've never been aware of the religious beliefs of any of my friends unless they specifically brought it up, and I never made any attempt to publicise my own beliefs in detail - in fact I specifically avoid it like I avoid airing anything personal about me. (I guess that's why I seem so aloof a lot of the time.) At any rate, for me airing any kind of religious beliefs at all among a group of friends is an alien concept and I'd probably be completely silent if it ever came up at all.

ANYWHO

To get to the point, it is a double standard and she needs a good bitchslap for being such a hypocrite.

[Badnik Zero]

I'm for religious expression and expression of ideas to a point. I don't think you should be aggressive with them basically.

I've made a few comments on the board that leaned towards my atheism, but I try not to sound like "God doesn't exist, ha ha". I get how a religious person might be offended by that. At the same time religious people, you have to realize that Jesus (or whoever your prophet/god is) isn't always accepted by everyone.

Like my best friend is a religious guy, and he's always saying things like "With god's help I'll get it done". That's his way of saying he's gonna get this done with his faith in god. Other times he'll say to me (paraphrasing), "Don't give into your temptations," to which I laugh and say something like "Temptation this!" Followed by something funny. We don't trample the other one with remarks. The farthest I'll go is "Well I'm not really a religious guy - at all," which he respects. We even have good discussions about god. It's when someone expects you to change their behavior for them, or tries to laugh at you for your beliefs that gets on my nerves.

Like conspiracy theorists piss me off because they're always like, "You've been brainwashed, my eyes are open, soon you'll see the truth about the New World Order." Holy fuck, get lost you cultist weirdo. Anyone who needs to tell you so many times that they have the real truth is probably trying to sell something to you.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Octarine]

I rarely voice my religious opinion anymore for basically this reason. I haven't had too many problems of this kind since my younger and rather stupider days, but I'm not a big fan of dealing with the sort of frothing-at-the-mouth crazies this topic tends to bring out (on both sides!), and honestly I just don't care enough about the subject to get into any fights. That's really just me, though; I'm totally fine with other people bringing up their beliefs if they want to, and sometimes it's even quite fun to hear about what other people believe as long as they aren't proselytizing. It's definitely unreasonable for anyone to get offended at a simple statement of one's beliefs, especially in an off-hand remark.

...maybe this kind of thing becomes more frequent with age and maturity? My conversations with my close friends, the only people I'd really be comfortable loudly bringing up religion around, still tend to be so teenage (read: casually vulgar) that I can't imagine any of them batting an eye if I brought up my agnosticism/atheism/apathy/whatever it is.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Octarine

[Conando]

Well, I'd have to say Atheists have gotten a bad rap from the ones that overly vocal about it. Such as the ones that demand their kid not have to say the pledge and throwing a huge fit over it, or those who demand Christmas object be taken down. Those guys are nuts, though. Any regular old atheist or agnostic wouldn't try to throw their weight around to remove all religious themes. On the other side, Christians get a bad rap from people such as that friend of yours, who flip when someone says something against their religion. Like turbojet and Azukara have stated, that's not really the point of the faith at all. I don't really know how those types can call themselves Christians, but it's becoming more and more common these days.

[Kevin]

If it's the case of "I can totally say what I believe, but if you don't believe the same thing, then you can't say anything because I'll get offended! Bawww!", then yes, I do think it's a double standard. It's not fair that one gets to express their views, but the other can't because it may offend someone else.

[turbojet]

I'm not really friends with any religious people, so I can be as rude, crass, childish, and ignorant as I like; nobody will be offended, as nobody can hear me.

I wont lie; I make atheist remarks all the time - I just don't say them within earshot of any religious folk.

Just like racist remarks.

And ageist remarks.

And sexist remarks.

And...

Before we bring up the tired old rhetoric that something offensive to someone automatically equals racism and sexism, lets take a second and think. Christianity is not the only religion in America. America does not have an official religion. Saying a racist or sexist remark is not the same as saying an anti-religious remark. They are not the same. This is someone's ideology versus who people inherently are.

[Pelly <3's U]

Yes. Then again, if she were really your friend, she should have known that you are an atheist and that you are a snarker. Put two and two together, she should be cool with it and shouldn't have blown it out of proportion like she did. Plus, your friend should act Christ-like, not like a Christian zealot.

I guess at the same time I could have known it would have offended her and not said it.

It's just that I don't feel like I should have to censor myself anymore then she does. I'm fine with her bringing up religion and her beliefs, I just think that I should be entitled the same benefits. I don't understand how me saying God is not real could be considered an attack on any religious person, because I highly doubt most people think that saying God is real is an attack on atheists.

[Random Rhyme]

I guess at the same time I could have known it would have offended her and not said it.

It's just that I don't feel like I should have to censor myself anymore then she does. I'm fine with her bringing up religion and her beliefs, I just think that I should be entitled the same benefits. I don't understand how me saying God is not real could be considered an attack on any religious person, because I highly doubt most people think that saying God is real is an attack on atheists.

When you look a a religious persons connection to their belief and your connection to yours it would look like she is passionately connected to her belief that God is real than you would be to your belief that God is not real so when you said that you must of affected her deeply because of her personal connection to it.

Allot of people go further than just believing that he exists and believe that he is a all loving being and care for him while you guys just stop at him not existing. So if you offended the all loving father figure that they personally care about then they would take offense.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Shade737

[Pelly <3's U]

Ok..........but I do care about being an atheist. In fact I think I'm just as personally connected to it as any religious person and am somewhat off-put by your assumption otherwise.

See, for me becoming an atheist was a life changing event. I actually can not think of any other single thought change in my life that has had more of an impact. It changed the /entire/ way I saw the world, all my ideas and concepts, what I think has meaning, how I live my life and am going to live it..............It would be hard for me to think of something that this hasn't affected in some regard. Also, just like any other person this feeling is something that I would love to share with the world (sounds familiar, it should). I am very personally attached to the concept of being an atheist and would never imagine compromising my beliefs, because of how deeply held they are in my heart.

....................and yet through of all of this I can respect if someone else definitively were to say God is real. I would not believe them, but I would just not say anything. I wouldn't take it as an offensive remark towards me despite the fact that it contradicts the one belief that I hold above all others in my heart and philosophy. I can actually see the similarities in how I and other people who are deeply connected to a belief feel about it, but at the same time I also respect that other people will have beliefs different then me. In no way does that imply that I have no personal connection to my belief, it's that I have no desire to believe mine is the only sacredly held one.

[Random Rhyme]

Then since you have a personal connection to being an atheist and your belief then I would recommend that you guys dont mention your beliefs around each other.

Simply agree to disagree and leave it at that to preserve your friendship.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Shade737

[Pelly <3's U]

Then since you have a personal connection to being an atheist and your belief then I would recommend that you guys dont mention your beliefs around each other.

Simply agree to disagree and leave it at that to preserve your friendship.

Lol we do already agree that we disagree. It's pretty much implied by the fact that she's religeous and I'm not.

The thing is I know how important her faith is to her and I don't mind if she mentions it. My argument is that I should be awarded the same benefit and it should not cause offense.

There is a difference between agreeing to disagree and someone having a lack of respect for another person's right while using that same right themselves. I think me and my friend have somewhat reached a compromise (loool it's not like I'm pissed at her, I just talked to her today) We actually had a somewhat decent debate. I made this topic to see what other people had to say about it because I'm interested.

I'm actually glad that you posted what you did because it brought up an interesting point. I think that one of the reasons for the double standard is that people don't think atheists have the same spiritual connection that they do. And while it's true that there are a lot of atheists who are rather 'eh' with their beliefs (just like religious people), there are many who do consider it an impotent and integral personal part of them. It does both sides well if they can see and learn this, it goes far in the way of mutual understand and conflict resolution.

[SuperStingray]

While I consider myself an atheist, I try to separate myself from the atheist community. All faiths have their douchebags with a smug sense of self-righteousness, and the lack of a belief in a higher power doesn't seem to make a difference there. I believe that just as prayers and dreams are personal, religion should be too. Some people choose faith, some choose empiricism. What ever it is, good for you, just keep it to yourself and your inner circle, okay?

[LunarEdge]

@ Topic starter

you're friend seems like one of those religious people who refuse to listen to other points, but the way you put it, at least she's not an ass at doing so. I like to consider myself agnostic at time, but when someone brings up God or w/e, I tend to tell them my views since I was brought up Catholic then converted to Methodist.

I find it bs that your friend takes offense when you say there is no God (or question the existence of God) but when she brings it up, it's okay. Most religious people, from what I've seen, can be very hypocritical, stubborn and/or arrogant, but like I said, that's from what I've seen.

[Diogenes]

As long as you're not being a jerk about it, there should be nothing wrong with expressing your beliefs (or disbeliefs). No one should feel like they're not allowed to express themselves because they might offend someone, especially not when that someone has no qualms about sharing their own equivalent beliefs. Simple as that.

[Sarge]

I put up with religious people daily, part of living in the Bible Belt you just gotta live with.

Personally, I'm not into religion at all, its always striked me as a charming but wasteful way to look at our gifts of intelligence. That said, perhaps its not the crazy to think we were created by some grand design, be that a "god" or any other alien race. Doesn't really make a difference to me, I don't go through my life pondering the meaning, I just enjoy the beauty.

As for what I do around all the religious talk between friends and coworkers, I just ignore it. Its pointless for me to waste my air on it and if they want to believe something, more power to them.

Every now and then I do go out of my way to piss someone off... but that's more because I am real life troll XD.