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The Fallen Cast...


CrownSlayer’s Shadow

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Knuckles The Echidna starts here.

Amy Rose starts page 2

Rouge the Bat begins on

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Ahh, Sonic characters. The most controversal aspect of the series, and for more or less treated badly for the wrong reasons. It's time to bring it out once again.

Now no matter how much bullshit, dislike, and favoritism anyone will make towards any particular character, be it Shadow, Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Rouge, and so on, EVERY recurring character is in deep shit in regards to how they've been handled. Blaze is virtually the only one who is exempt, and the only ones who are actually recovering are Sonic and Eggman. Big'll get a special mention as well, as ever since SA1, the guy's popularity has risen up the ranks and a lot of people are starting to be okay with the big cat around.

So rather than get into the whole ordeal and calling out fans for their biases, let's just cut to the chase shall we? Here we'll be looking deep into the character mentioned in the description. As a guidelines so we don't end up with a bitchfest of some sort: Keep it as neutral as you can guys, that way we aren't putting characters on pedestals or trash cans. At the very least try to understand the character as much as you can.

Good traits will be mentioned (obviously), but their flaws will certainly not be ignored. In other words, if a character like Shadow or Big gets mentioned, do yourself a favor and cut the crap, Pro or Anti. When I say "pro" I mean fanboys who treat a character as if they's the greatest in the series, and "anti" in treating the characters as a plague or nuisance.

If this topic lasts long, I might change the name every once in a while.

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In any case, the first character I want to bring to attention is Knuckles the Echidna. Our great red powerhouse has been around during the classic days, and has since risen in his role up until Heroes-Sonic 06.

Rad red has since transitioned from a rival to a friend of Sonic's, but his so called rivalries were only the result of being tricked everytime by Dr. You-Know-Who, which could bring into question whether you would even call those rivalries to begin with. This has only happened two times (three if you count SAdv2), but it is worth mentioning his gullibility...I'd probably similar if I was couped up on an island for most of my life, although I would probably have learned the lesson after the second time.

In any case, Knuckles is definitely Sonic's muscle. That is whenever he gets involved in the plot. Knuckles only has some form of significance to a plot whenever there's something that involves him to step up in his role as the Guardian of the M.E., particularly when the M.E. is being threatened. Sonic can do the bulk of the protecting the world from Eggman, unless Eggman becomes much more deadlier of a threat as he was in the Adventures just to name the more well-known games that are actually decent to many people (and yes there are others as well). However, as much potential he has as a character, all that potential is generally held back by that very stone he vows his life to protect.

Without the M.E., it brings up a serious question as to why he's in the plot and how his abandonment of the M.E. is actually worth risking the danger of leaving it unguarded. The main area where this flaw becomes apparent is Sonic 06, where he barely did anything at all throughout that whole game. Heroes would be a notable mention (especially when he admittedly left the M.E. unguarded going by the final ending), but it's already screwed up plot prevents you from bringing up that question when you consider a lot of other characters in the game as well. In short, Knuckles role tends to be done well when the M.E. is significant; on the flipside, it falls flat when he's brought in without it.

Despite the chain that bounds him to the M.E. and to a lesser extent Angel Island, there's quite a lot you can actually do with both him and the M.E. together to prevent such a decline in his character. Every once in a while, you could shatter the M.E. and rather than have Knuckles search for the shards, all the other characters involved could be searching for it either to help Knuckles restore it or to use it for their own gain. Or you could send all the characters on the Floating Island and have Knuckles pull double time as the Island's Guardian.

There are plenty of other things you could do as well with him and the M.E., however, it's not particularly endless if done all the time.

In short, while Rad Red has great potential as a character (as everyone else does), his role as a guardian ties down how much he could use before he runs dry. To keep that from happening, use him sparingly and wisely.

Any thoughts, additions, mentions for Knuckles?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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It's a blessing in disguise that the Master Emerald's role is to bound Knuckles to Angel Island. Knuckles guarding the Emerald ensures that he will never wear out his welcome when the Emerald is invovled in the plot and Knuckles does appear. As much as I like Knuckles, he does not have to appear in every game. It really cheapens his character every time Sega has Knuckles leave Angel Island to participate in some hoverboard racing tournament or any plot that does not involve the Master Emerald.

On the subject of Knuckles' gullibility, I think Knuckles only chooses to believe what Robotnik says because Knuckles just wants an excuse to fight Sonic. Knuckles was brought up into a culture that was all about fighting, and since he is not content being bested by Sonic, he secretly wants to settle the score with Sonic once and for all. This is also the reason why I think Knuckles has been following Sonic around so much lately. It's not that Knuckles is bitter towards Sonic, it's just that Knuckles simply wants to prove he's the strongest. Think of it as a more friendly version of Metal Sonic's rivalry with Sonic.

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I honestly don't mind Knuckles tagging along with Sonic for no reason on occasion, as long as it doesn't happen all the time like it did in the mid-2000s. Heroes was an okay example of tagalong Knuckles done passably well, since it began with Tails having apparently already recruited him himself and there was at least an obvious, imminent threat to the safety of the world, which I'm sure Knuckles would be willing to drop the Master Emerald for a day or two to stop. What's the point in protecting the Master Emerald from being abused by evil people if those people already control the planet, after all?

...there's no excuse for '06 turning him into Eggman's delivery boy, though. I kind of like the idea that he might still be in occasional contact with Robotnik after the whole Death Egg thing, but that was just... eugh. Next to shifting around Blaze's entire origin, it was probably the worst abuse of a character in the entire game.

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I don't think being chained to the Master Emerald/Angel Island is hurting Knuckles, so much as the flagrant disregard for his responsibilities. When we've got Knuckles running off to be Eggman's delivery boy, or to go race hoverboards, without even a mention of what he should be doing, it gets hard to take that aspect of his character seriously. I don't think there'd be much of a problem in this area if they split it 3 ways: games without Knuckles, games where Knuckles' duties are directly relevant (anything actually involving the island or the emerald), and games where there is a plausible but tangential reason for him to be involved ("something's up with the emeralds!", "this could eventually affect my island!", etc etc). They don't have to be in equal proportion, but they should all be represented.

On the subject of Knuckles' gullibility, I think Knuckles only chooses to believe what Robotnik says because Knuckles just wants an excuse to fight Sonic. Knuckles was brought up into a culture that was all about fighting, and since he is not content being bested by Sonic, he secretly wants to settle the score with Sonic once and for all. This is also the reason why I think Knuckles has been following Sonic around so much lately. It's not that Knuckles is bitter towards Sonic, it's just that Knuckles simply wants to prove he's the strongest. Think of it as a more friendly version of Metal Sonic's rivalry with Sonic.
I don't really sense this in the games, but it'd be an interesting angle to pursue.

I don't really get the whole rival thing, anyway. Maybe I just didn't get into all the hype between S3&K and SA, but I've always seen Knuckles as the hotheaded friend, the lancer to Sonic's hero. I mean, in S3&K they were genuinely enemies until Knuckles realized he had been tricked, at which point they cooperated with no hesitation. In SA, Knuckles was tricked again; their fight wasn't a matter of being rivals so much as "you have my shit!" "wtf, no I don't!". By SA2 there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between them, and of course Heroes is all "teamwork is awesome!", and that's about the point characterization in the series went downhill.

Another thing, I kind of miss his loner side. S3&K had him as the whole "last of his race, sole protector of the island and emerald" thing, and they pressed it pretty well in the Adventures, too; until he runs into Tails and Amy in SA2, he's always off doing his own thing, just coincidentally running into other characters. Even after that, he's more concerned with putting the emerald back together than stopping Eggman; it's only after that's done and Sonic asks for his help that he's really part of the team. Of course then came Sonic Teamwork, ShtH (he's alone in his levels, but so is everyone else, and he's with the rest in the last story), '06, the Riders games...and it starts to seem like he's Sonic's second sidekick. I suppose part of it could be passed off as character development, but it just doesn't feel like development. More like a switch was flicked, and suddenly he's all buddy-buddy.

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What's the point in protecting the Master Emerald from being abused by evil people if those people already control the planet, after all?

To keep that person from becoming a God. Whoever gets a hold of that thing and find a way to properly use it could likely go Super Saiyan 4...

...without trying.

And add on to the fact that the M.E's power can negate the Chaos Emeralds, of which anyone who possess them would have the power and the balls to challenge a god-like entity. The fact that the M.E. has the power completely screw over the already powerful Chaos Emeralds, would probably make that person who has it almost unstoppable.

Even so, as long as Sonic or someone equally as strong is around, chances of someone controling the world is low unless they hatch a plot to rid the hedgehog of the face of the earth. So Knuckles could still stay along the island and safeguard the M.E. unless there is an absolute emergency. And I think should an emergency be called in the case someone does control the world, the Master Emerald would be the last line of defense in repelling that evil.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Knuckles might have started leaving the emerald on its own when he realized that Eggman was the only one who ever really tried to steal it.

While it's obviously not intentional, the way Knuckles seems to so easily go after Sonic sometimes gives me the impression that he still subconsciously blames Sonic for what happened during Sonic 3.

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Knuckles might have started leaving the emerald on its own when he realized that Eggman was the only one who ever really tried to steal it.

That's really not a good reason to leave the M.E. at all considering that Eggman could likely steal it again and without any effort since Knuckles is leaving it alone, not to mention that Rouge the Bat is probably not above stealing it herself for her own. That kind of power is not something to be left alone unless there's a really good reason in doing so. And I mean a REALLY good reason.

While it's obviously not intentional, the way Knuckles seems to so easily go after Sonic sometimes gives me the impression that he still subconsciously blames Sonic for what happened during Sonic 3.

I can't see anywhere in the series that even hints that or how that even makes sense when Eggman was the one who caused all that happened during Sonic 3.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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One thing I might add on to Knuckles and the Master Emerald.

He would be the most boring character if he was bound to Angel Island because he can't do anything interesting unless a giant water monster attacks him or what not. Most of the time get the Master Emerald is sort of an excuse for Knuckles to be involved since he has no major rivals other than being Rouge. But lately in Heroes and 06 there's really never an explanation to why Knuckles even does appear which was mentioned before. The only explanations we can get is that Knuckles heard Eggman is up to no good and follows along or what not. And Sega expects us to know. But Knuckles is pretty much the lancer of the group so maybe he expects some kind of reward or what not. We will never know.

Sega should put a lot more into him though. I feel like Knuckles now is to mainly to appeal these days, they want a character with an attitude that lives differently from our hero. Knuckles does have some depth via the Sonic Adventure series but it just seems like it gets thrown out so we have the cool guy.

Sorry if this wasn't a good post at all. D:

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That's really not a good reason to leave the M.E. at all considering that Eggman could likely steal it again and without any effort since Knuckles is leaving it alone, not to mention that Rouge the Bat is probably not above stealing it herself for her own. That kind of power is not something to be left alone unless there's a really good reason in doing so. And I mean a REALLY good reason.

I can't see anywhere in the series that even hints that or how that even makes sense when Eggman was the one who caused all that happened during Sonic 3.

When he leaves the ME, he typically ends up in pursuit of Eggman in short order either way. It's not like he's ever been able to prevent someone from actually removing it from its pedestal. Plus, Rouge hasn't been much of a thief outside of oddities like Sonic Battle. This is also probably unintentional, but it never seems like the ME is actually in danger when Knuckles leaves it, there's never any party willing or able to carry out such a heist, apart from maybe Eggman, who he is usually chasing anyway. There are obvious outliers, like Sonic Riders, where it's hard to tell whether Angel Isand is even in that verse.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if some parts of Sonic Team have been trying to retcon the ME out of existence specifically so they don't have to deal with it. Iirc, Sonic Battle showed Knuckles living somewhere other than Angel Island, unless that place you walk to up north is supposed to be it. It wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened. GUN seems to be just as gone as the hole in the moon.

Oh, and a funny idea I had: Imagine that Knuckles actually was looking for the ME in 06, he just doesn't want to admit that it was stolen so he doesn't talk about it.

I said subconsciously. He doesn't actually think Sonic did it, he just subconsciously blames him for it. Think about it, his first impression of Sonic was a guy with a bunch of Chaos Emeralds just after his had been stolen, Robotnik actually helped him try to stop Sonic, then Sonic beat him up. I wouldn't be surprised if Robotnik told him that Sonic burned down the forest as well.

One thing that I think gets glossed over a lot was that in Sonic 3, Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds just as much as he was guarding the ME, that the whole reason for him going after Sonic.

Edited by Phos
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When he leaves the ME, he typically ends up in pursuit of Eggman in short order either way. It's not like he's ever been able to prevent someone from actually removing it from its pedestal. Plus, Rouge hasn't been much of a thief outside of oddities like Sonic Battle. This is also probably unintentional, but it never seems like the ME is actually in danger when Knuckles leaves it, there's never any party willing or able to carry out such a heist, apart from maybe Eggman, who he is usually chasing anyway. There are obvious outliers, like Sonic Riders, where it's hard to tell whether Angel Isand is even in that verse.

I still think that leaving that kind of power alone for the sake of helping to chase someone down is very irresponsible. That's like leaving a loaded shotgun around for a wandering child to get their hands on in terms of what we're talking about here, it's not something someone should leave around unwatched.

Those times when he did end up in pursuit of Eggman are the very moments where his characterization really suffers. Heroes has everyone suffer, but that still doesn't excuse Knuckles of his poor portrayal along with other characters and the fact that he intentionally left it alone only to go back to it when Rouge talked about "going after someone else's treasure"; ShTH had an alien invasion, so it's debatable whether or not it would've been okay to leave it; his role in Sonic 06, however, is a big example of him (barely) being in pursuit of Eggman with Sonic is one that wasn't even necessary for him at all.

The ME is always in danger when Knuckles leaves it; just like leaving a loaded gun out in the open is dangerous to whoever is naive enough to take it and use it on something, there's no telling who would get their hands on the ME and possibly misuse it. Even if there isn't someone willing to take it, that's no excuse to just leave it alone because that practically invites someone to steal it with no effort. And that's not something Knuckles should really be doing.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if some parts of Sonic Team have been trying to retcon the ME out of existence specifically so they don't have to deal with it.
That would more than likely do more harm than good for Knuckles. You would be taking out the only thing unique to him and turning him into Sonic's second sidekick while taking away his occupation as a Guardian.

You have to pull some serious cards in order to create a whole new role for Knuckles, but you would have to keep in mind that it's likely he'll be much different than he currently is.

I said subconsciously. He doesn't actually think Sonic did it, he just subconsciously blames him for it.

That makes no sense for him to still think that after he finds out he's been tricked by Eggman ever since that happened. That revalation should've given him a keen insight as to who is responsible for what.

One thing that I think gets glossed over a lot was that in Sonic 3, Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds just as much as he was guarding the ME, that the whole reason for him going after Sonic.

It's been retconned as far as I can tell.

The Sonic 3 manual mentions of Eggman needing the Chaos Emeralds guarded by Knuckles, meaning that Knuckles already had them by the time Eggman came to steal them. But Eggman has to trick Knuckles that Sonic and Tails, who have their own emeralds, are trying to steal them in order to steal them himself. If they were already stolen before Sonic and Tails arrived on the scene, that doesn't make sense for them to come back to the island only to have Knuckles resteal them from

So Eggman would steal the Island Emeralds from Knuckles who stole Sonic and Tails emeralds so that Eggman could steal them. It doesn't make sense when there were only seven to steal in the first place. I honestly think the manual makes a mess of things when you incorporate it into today's timeline.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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comic.png

This. :lol:

Seriously though, I do think that the whole concept of the Master Emerald is a bit outdated now. It had a role in SA1 and 2, and yeah- clearly after that they're basically hoping that the audience forgets the fact that Knuckles should be guarding it.

As others have said, Knuckles would be the most boring character ever if he only ever appeared when the Master Emerald was involved in the plot (which is very, very rarely. What, three four times in the last decade? And that's counting pathetically minor cameos in Advance 3 and Battle- it's not really had any big plot purpose since SA2). But at the same time, if the developers felt fit to force the Master Emerald into the plot every time they wanted Knuckles to appear, it would get old very fast. I mean in all honesty, Knuckles destroying the Master Emerald of his own accord in SA2 was already a massive plot excuse to retain his hunting-stage gameplay from SA1.

So, yeah, Knuckles is a bit of a difficult one. This brings me back to a fanfic idea I had yeeeears back, in which Knuckles realised how lame life is just sitting in front of a big gem 24/7 and that Chaos took over as the guardian. Make of it what you you will, but I personally do think that the whole 'guardian of the Master Emerald' schtick is getting a bit old/ outdated now.

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Thing is, Knuckles spent his entire life alone on one island, never interacting with the rest of the world. I think, it generally makes more sense, since the Island's discovery, that he starts to just take more interest in the world. He's become friends with Sonic and Tails. He could just want to be part of the world, and not alone all the time.

As a character, I like when he's wise as well as gullible. Zero gavrity is good with this, as only he can translate the ancient babylonian texts.

If we do worry, we could imagine he actually carries the M.E. with him, it's shown in SA2 he can alter it's sizer and keep it in hammer Space. ;) Or, avoiding that, since SA1, it's probably not too difficult for him to have Chaos keep an eye on it when he's gone.

- Scarecrow

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I still think that leaving that kind of power alone for the sake of helping to chase someone down is very irresponsible. That's like leaving a loaded shotgun around for a wandering child to get their hands on in terms of what we're talking about here, it's not something someone should leave around unwatched.

Those times when he did end up in pursuit of Eggman are the very moments where his characterization really suffers. Heroes has everyone suffer, but that still doesn't excuse Knuckles of his poor portrayal along with other characters and the fact that he intentionally left it alone only to go back to it when Rouge talked about "going after someone else's treasure"; ShTH had an alien invasion, so it's debatable whether or not it would've been okay to leave it; his role in Sonic 06, however, is a big example of him (barely) being in pursuit of Eggman with Sonic is one that wasn't even necessary for him at all.

The ME is always in danger when Knuckles leaves it; just like leaving a loaded gun out in the open is dangerous to whoever is naive enough to take it and use it on something, there's no telling who would get their hands on the ME and possibly misuse it. Even if there isn't someone willing to take it, that's no excuse to just leave it alone because that practically invites someone to steal it with no effort. And that's not something Knuckles should really be doing.

Who'd be able to use it? I think it's pretty apparent that simply touching it isn't gonna turn anyone Super Saiyan 9001.

Who'd be able to REACH it? It's on a floating island off the coast, thousands of feet in the sky. You don't just stumble upon it.

Who'd be able to take it? The M.E is pretty heavy, in the middle of an island that's thousands of feet in the sky. No random person would be able to just grab it and run unless they were REALLY prepared.

The only people with a motive who're capable of taking it are Eggman and Rouge if she was really dedicated, and even then, it wouldn't take long for Knuckles to catch on to the theft.

If anything, Knuckles is really just the back lines of the M.E's defense, only being there in the event that a capable thief were to get onto the island. And it's not like that happens every week.

Also, a little food for though. Remember this?

S3%26KEmeraldChamber.png

No one ever said he doesn't use it as a closet when he's away.

To be honest, I find it BULLSHIT that people see the M.E as a physical dog chain keeping Knuckles from getting off the island. You act as if the emerald isn't already VERY difficult to get to, let alone take away without anyone noticing(read: IMPOSSIBLE). I can understand the question-ability of trivial things such as hoverboarding being reason enough for Knux to leave the island, but in the MAIN games, aside from 06, the world was already in jeopardy due to Eggman, and sitting on his ass in the island wouldn't exactly help any.

As others have said, what's the point of protecting the emerald if THE WORLD HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER. You do know it'd be HARDER to protect the emerald if Eggman has TOTAL CONTROL of the rest of the planet and a basement full of warheads just waiting for a target.

Edited by Black Spy
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Maybe Knuckles isn't as responsible as we think he is...

I mean, we know his hobby is treasure hunting, doesn't that mean sometimes he goes out of the island to... look for treasures? (despite all the treasure hunting he can do in Angel Island, wich is a lot).

Also:

comic.png

I love Knuckles face in the 3rd panel, thoose eyes reminds me of down syndrome Sonic. :lol:

Edited by Pumpkimarafan Hill
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That's really not a good reason to leave the M.E. at all considering that Eggman could likely steal it again and without any effort since Knuckles is leaving it alone, not to mention that Rouge the Bat is probably not above stealing it herself for her own. That kind of power is not something to be left alone unless there's a really good reason in doing so. And I mean a REALLY good reason.

The Master Emerald is on a FLOATING ISLAND SEVERAL MILES UP IN THE AIR.

This island (presumably) wanders the skies and is difficult to detect. The Nintendo Hardness of finding and accessing it is an entire plot point in Sonic Chronicles, where the Nocturnus have to go through a whole convoluted plan to bring the island to THEM. And even if you DO find it, it's got defences of its own - S3&K is full of horrible environmental traps that would kill anyone who isn't a supersonic blue hedgehog.

Yes, Knux leaving the ME unguarded is not an ideal state of affairs, and he should, as a general rule, keep his butt parked on the Emerald Shrine steps at all times. But his absence is not quite the painting a flashing target that says "HEY EGGMAN" on the gem that some seem to be implying.

I do have kind of a justification for Knux climbing down off the island even if there's no immediate threat to the world (and, vicariously, Angel Island), in that the echidna cares about 2 things and 2 things only. One is the Master Emerald on his island. Two, rarely mentioned but nonetheless in there, is his treasure hunting. Fleetway did really great characterisation of Knuckles in impressing how desperate he is to know more about his vanished race - which, in my mind, is the reason he's nominally a treasure hunter, and can read Babylonian in Riders ZG. He's not after shiny baubles like Rouge, but rather after knowledge of the past. Knux may have travelled back to see Pachacamac's crime in SA1, but there's still a whole lot about the Knuckles Clan that isn't known. So this is why he can often be found groundside; his Master Emerald duties get balanced against his BAWWW WHO AM I echidna angst.

One could also say, I guess, that knowing more about the Knuckles Clan would enable him to know more about all the Marble Garden style crap they built all over Angel Island, and thus enable him to do his job of defending it, and the ME, better?

I can't see anywhere in the series that even hints that or how that even makes sense when Eggman was the one who caused all that happened during Sonic 3.

If Sonic hadn't fucked about with the Death Egg, it'd never have crashed on Angel Island.

I imagine that Knuckles' susceptibility to the Doctor's lies comes from the fact that Robotnik was, inescapably, Knuckles' first - and for a time only - friend. Robotnik exploded out of the sky in a fireball of crashing space station, and promptly set about making Angel Island the strongest and best-defended place it had been for 4,000 years. They fought the good fight as comrades against Sonic and Tails for 1 1/2 games, plus spent who knows how much in-universe time between S2 and S3 with only each other for company. Yes, Knux got a knife in the back (and an electro-shock to the skeleton) at the end of it all, but can 100,000 volts to the dreads completly erase n months of manipulation?

The crux of this is that I think Knuckles subconciously still wants to believe that there's good in Robotnik, AND (maybe less subconsciously) Knux thinks Sonic is - at times - an irresponsible jerk who needs a good punch in the face every once in a while. Take these two points together, and a lie from Eggamn about Sonic is extremly believable.

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The crux of this is that I think Knuckles subconciously still wants to believe that there's good in Robotnik, AND (maybe less subconsciously) Knux thinks Sonic is - at times - an irresponsible jerk who needs a good punch in the face every once in a while. Take these two points together, and a lie from Eggamn about Sonic is extremly believable.

I can understand the latter, but considering how Eggman has, in order, betrayed their partnership in just about the bluntest way possible, stole his most prized possession and thus jeopardized YEARS of life dedication, and mercilessly electrocuted him, I put the blame mostly on his extreme lack of social experience rather than some inner belief that Eggman his a nice guy deep down. Oh yeah, and not to mention burned down an entire forest.

Which actually brings a pretty funny thought to mind. The box art of Sonic 3(U.S) shows Knuckles glaring at Sonic from inside a bush, WHILE EGGMAN'S FLOATING JUST BEHIND HIM, DEMONIC FACE AND ALL, BURNING DOWN HIS FOREST.

Edited by Black Spy
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Who'd be able to use it? I think it's pretty apparent that simply touching it isn't gonna turn anyone Super Saiyan 9001.

Any organization or being who has the tech or ability to harness it. Not like that's something for Knuckles worry about now since that hasn't happened yet, but touching it isn't the only way for someone to use it.

Who'd be able to REACH it? It's on a floating island off the coast, thousands of feet in the sky. You don't just stumble upon it.

Anyone with a plane or the ability to fly. Getting there isn't exactly hard to do if someone can find a way to reach they sky. Tracking it may be the one thing that would cause problems for someone who wants to reach it, but if the Chaos Emeralds can track the Master Emerald like they do each other, that could make that factor easier for someone with the means to get to the island.

Who'd be able to take it? The M.E is pretty heavy, in the middle of an island that's thousands of feet in the sky. No random person would be able to just grab it and run unless they were REALLY prepared.

A really strong character, which this series has plenty of.

The only people with a motive who're capable of taking it are Eggman and Rouge if she was really dedicated, and even then, it wouldn't take long for Knuckles to catch on to the theft.

So that's a good enough reason to leave it alone, when one of those is a mad scientist capable of using said Emerald for any machine he builds it around and the other has absolutely no idea at the forces she's messing with?

If anything, Knuckles is really just the back lines of the M.E's defense, only being there in the event that a capable thief were to get onto the island. And it's not like that happens every week.

I doesn't have to happen every week. It could happen at any random time and cause a lot of trouble if misused. And I don't think that one random time is worth that kind of risk unless there something really serious going on that wouldn't call his abandonment (or utilization if he decides to use it to counter the evil forces at hand) of the Master Emerald into any sort of question.

Also, a little food for though. Remember this?

S3%26KEmeraldChamber.png

No one ever said he doesn't use it as a closet when he's away.

He seems to have a habit of leaving it out on the outer shrine when he's away then.

The hell happened to the Hidden Palace anyway? They've never bothered with it since then unless I've been missing something.

You act as if the emerald isn't already VERY difficult to get to, let alone take away without anyone noticing(read: IMPOSSIBLE).

Who said that? I know I didn't.

I can understand the question-ability of trivial things such as hoverboarding being reason enough for Knux to leave the island, but in the MAIN games, aside from 06, the world was already in jeopardy due to Eggman, and sitting on his ass in the island wouldn't exactly help any.

The world is always in jeopardy when Eggman hatches a plot. The world was in some deep shit when he cracked the planet into several pieces to free the "monster-of-the-week" Dark Gaia from his slumber, and yet Sonic and to a lesser extent Chip handled it without very much help from any other character, and even more so Knuckles wasn't even around to help.

Sonic can do the bulk of the saving the world, so Knuckles "sitting on his ass" when the world is in danger isn't always something to worry about when Sonic already has it covered on Day 1 when tragedy occurs.

As others have said, what's the point of protecting the emerald if THE WORLD HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER.

Like I said, to prevent that person from using it and becoming God-like.

With the kind of power the ME has contained within it, if the rest of the world had been taken over and Angel Island was next to be conquered there's still a fighting chance to make the conquerer lose his grip on the world, and Knuckles certainly seems to know how to use it in case there's a major threat around with very little options to handle it.

You do know it'd be HARDER to protect the emerald if Eggman has TOTAL CONTROL of the rest of the planet and a basement full of warheads just waiting for a target.

Not if you can use it to repel Eggman from that control. And even then, it's still not something Sonic wouldn't be able to handle unless he himself was put out of commission.

The Master Emerald is on a FLOATING ISLAND SEVERAL MILES UP IN THE AIR.

I think everyone knows that.

This island (presumably) wanders the skies and is difficult to detect. The Nintendo Hardness of finding and accessing it is an entire plot point in Sonic Chronicles, where the Nocturnus have to go through a whole convoluted plan to bring the island to THEM.

I've never really played Chronicles, so I'm not exactly up to date with all that. I've been staying away from the wikis to avoid being spoiled, so excuse me on that.

And even if you DO find it, it's got defences of its own - S3&K is full of horrible environmental traps that would kill anyone who isn't a supersonic blue hedgehog.

Or a fat scientist, or a twin-tailed fox, or a government agent in the form of a bat, and proably several other members of the cast as well if we consider that four members of the cast was able to bypass those traps.

Not trying to be rude when I say that, but let's take into consideration what we're talking about here and how that can apply to other things as well.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Any organization or being who has the tech or ability to harness it. Not like that's something for Knuckles worry about now since that hasn't happened yet, but touching it isn't the only way for someone to use it.

Anyone with a plane or the ability to fly. Getting there isn't exactly hard to do if someone can find a way to reach they sky.

A really strong character, which this series has plenty of.

And yet all the known people who have such capabilities don't have the motive to steal it. I'm fully aware that a good amount of the main cast could reach the island, my point was, the only one of those who'd actually steal it are Eggman and Rouge.

No random person is gonna have the means of using the M.E let alone get away with it.

So that's a good enough reason to leave it alone, when one of those is a mad scientist capable of using said Emerald for any machine he builds it around and the other has absolutely no idea at the forces she's messing with?

When one of them is the guy your pursuing to begin with, and the other wouldn't get far with it.

I doesn't have to happen every week. It could happen at any random time and cause a lot of trouble if misused. And I don't think that one random time is worth that kind of risk unless there something really serious going on that wouldn't call his abandonment (or utilization if he decides to use it to counter the evil forces at hand) of the Master Emerald into any sort of question.

Again, the only people who are known to potentially steal it are Eggman(who he would be after) and Rouge(who wouldn't be able to use it's power, and more than likely just keep it for the evulz).

Who said that? I know I didn't.

You compared it's abandonment to leaving a loaded gun in the middle of the street, implying that any random person could find and take it, let alone actually harness it's power.

The world is always in jeopardy when Eggman hatches a plot. The world was in some deep shit when he cracked the planet into several pieces to free the "monster-of-the-week" Dark Gaia from his slumber, and yet Sonic and to a lesser extent Chip handled it without very much help from any other character, and even more so Knuckles wasn't even around to help.

Sonic can do the bulk of the saving the world, so Knuckles "sitting on his ass" when the world is in danger isn't always something to worry about when Sonic already has it covered on Day 1 when tragedy occurs.

But you can see where his reasons for leaving the M.E are coming from. It's not like he isn't leaving for a greater cause.

Like I said, to prevent that person from using it and becoming God-like.

With the kind of power the ME has contained within it, if the rest of the world had been taken over and Angel Island was next to be conquered there's still a fighting chance to make the conquerer lose his grip on the world, and Knuckles certainly seems to know how to use it in case there's a major threat around with very little options to handle it.

Not if you can use it to repel Eggman from that control. And even then, it's still not something Sonic wouldn't be able to handle unless he himself was put out of commission.

When that person has seized control of the whole world, that's an entire world making weapons of mass destruction for him so he can proceed to nuke the island and take the M.E in his lunch break. When you have control of the rest of the world, it's NOT gonna be so easy getting it BACK.

Or a fat scientist, or a twin-tailed fox, or a government agent in the form of a bat, and proably several other members of the cast as well if we consider that four members of the cast was able to bypass those traps.

Only TWO of them would actually want to steal it. Only ONE has the motivation of wanting to harness it's power, and that ONE person is who Knux would be after in the first place.

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And yet all the known people who have such capabilities don't have the motive to steal it. I'm fully aware that a good amount of the main cast could reach the island, my point was, the only one of those who'd actually steal it are Eggman and Rouge.

And when they don't steal it, that limits Knuckles involvement in terms of where he's is needed. That's not to say he can't get involved, but if he's allowed to get involved in anything in terms saving the world, that means other characters are allowed to do so as well, and not every character is needed to help stop every threat that goes on in the series.

When one of them is the guy your pursuing to begin with, and the other wouldn't get far with it.

So while the other wouldn't get far with it, the one who your pursuing is likely to already have it once they find it. And add on the fact that the guy being smart enough to know how to manipulate it to an extent,

You compared it's abandonment to leaving a loaded gun in the middle of the street, implying that any random person could find and take it, let alone actually harness it's power.

Okay I see what you mean. I still stand by that point somewhat in terms of people who can use it.

But you can see where his reasons for leaving the M.E are coming from. It's not like he isn't leaving for a greater cause.

But he doesn't always need to be around for a greater cause when someone else is quite capable of handling it most of the time.

It's not like him staying on his island is going to hurt anything in the long run when something doesn't directly involve him, his island, or the M.E. when their are plenty of other characters in addition to the main hero being around to stop the threat.

If he's doing it for the greater good, let me say that you'll end up opening that door for just about every other potential character who gets involved in order to stop the threat as well. That is if you're okay with other characters doing so as well, which I'm sure plenty others would argue against.

When that person has seized control of the whole world, that's an entire world making weapons of mass destruction for him so he can proceed to nuke the island and take the M.E in his lunch break. When you have control of the rest of the world, it's NOT gonna be so easy getting it BACK.

That would backfire in terms of stealing the ME. Nuke the Island, and the person who's after it is likely to shatter the Emerald in the process

Add onto the fact that the Master Emerald is the single most powerful object in the series - as in more powerful than a nuke - it's not going to be so easy to steal it even if that person have the all the rest of the world but the Floating Island in the palm of his hand, when the person guarding the emerald knows how to use it. And it's not going to be so easy for that world conqueror to keep his grip on the world either knowing that.

Only TWO of them would actually want to steal it. Only ONE has the motivation of wanting to harness it's power, and that ONE person is who Knux would be after in the first place.

And that ONE person is an even bigger threat than he originally was should he steal it and use it.

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And when they don't steal it, that limits Knuckles involvement in terms of where he's is needed. That's not to say he can't get involved, but if he's allowed to get involved in anything in terms saving the world, that means other characters are allowed to do so as well, and not every character is needed to help stop every threat that goes on in the series.

If he's doing it for the greater good, let me say that you'll end up opening that door for just about every other potential character who gets involved in order to stop the threat as well. That is if you're okay with other characters doing so as well, which I'm sure plenty others would argue against.

Are you suggesting that just because Knuckles can get involved in saving the world, then EVERY OTHER CHARACTER can? Well if your gonna go by that logic, then I guess the same would apply to Tails then, right?

My main point is, it's not a BAD thing if Knuckles were to be involved in saving the world.

But he doesn't always need to be around for a greater cause when someone else is quite capable of handling it most of the time.

It's not like him staying on his island is going to hurt anything in the long run when something doesn't directly involve him, his island, or the M.E. when their are plenty of other characters in addition to the main hero being around to stop the threat.

Again, it's not a BAD thing if he IS involved. Same thing with Tails always tagging along with Sonic, despite him contributing LESS to the effort than Knuckles would have.

That would backfire in terms of stealing the ME. Nuke the Island, and the person who's after it is likely to shatter the Emerald in the process

And it's only a matter of time before the MILLIONS of minions he has under his control find the pieces and recombine them. B)

Add onto the fact that the Master Emerald is the single most powerful object in the series - as in more powerful than a nuke - it's not going to be so easy to steal it even if that person have the all the rest of the world but the Floating Island in the palm of his hand, when the person guarding the emerald knows how to use it. And it's not going to be so easy for that world conqueror to keep his grip on the world either knowing that.

Unless the M.E has an AT Field, one strong surprise air strike and the rock is as good as stolen. Hell, all Eggman needed to do the first time was keep Knux distracted for a few seconds and he nearly had it all for himself.

And that ONE person is an even bigger threat than he originally was should he steal it and use it.

And if the whole team is after him to begin with, he'd be put out of commission before such a thing could occur.

Edited by Black Spy
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Are you suggesting that just because Knuckles can get involved in saving the world, then EVERY OTHER CHARACTER can?

Yes, if we're willing to let Knuckles get by on it. I honestly don't think we should have every character around for the sake of just saving the world, and that's where I think more detail should be added as to how the events involve them that require them to help out.

Not to make them selfish in them doing it only for themselves, but because we can see how much more serious the conflict is escalating to the point where it involves more of the cast. The threat should be treated and handled propotionally to the number of characters that get involved, and the reason for each character getting involved should be unique in the sense that it's not something other characters can fall back on, and every character and their mom (Vanilla :lol:) can fall back on saving the world as a reason for getting into the plot, but doing so would make it very easy to shred a sense of uniqueness to the characters that are involved.

That's where the M.E. plays it's role as Knuckles' shackles to his feet; by the M.E. being tied to Rad Red, his reasons for getting involved make it to where he isn't like every other character who follows the path of simply "saving the world for the greater good," maintaining a sense of uniqueness to him in the process. Without it, he's likely to border on becoming a Tails2, relegated as another sidekick for Sonic, unless some big time restructuring of his character is done to alleviate that. It's not bad that people tie the M.E. so heavily to Knuckles, it actually serves as a good thing; it serves as an indicator to where he is being used effectively and where he's not, and serves as a way to keep him from being seen as overused to where there's nothing more he can do.

Mind you, Knuckles isn't the only one with shackles to him that would prevent a misuse of his character. Several other character are in similar position. But if you're going to break those shackles and allow him to come around for the sake of saving the world, you're leaving the tools for others to do the same for other characters, and honestly, I'm not one who likes to see such a vague use of any character outside of Sonic, Eggman, and Tails to a lesser extent.

Well if your gonna go by that logic, then I guess the same would apply to Tails then, right?

And Shadow, Rouge, Blaze, Silver, Cream, Omega, Big, Vector, Charmy, Amy, and every other recurring character.

Tails gets off by default because he doesn't have anything to question why he's around, like the Emerald that I feel is what is deeply chained to Knuckles. He's pretty much as free as Sonic is, as he has no responsibilities to the extend any other character has. If Sonic is around, you can at the very least expect Tails and there's really nothing to question why he would be around at all. But Tails isn't the subject of discussion...

My main point is, it's not a BAD thing if Knuckles were to be involved in saving the world.

That's not even what I was addressing.

My whole point was how Knuckles characterization tends to fall flat when he's brought in without any regard as to why he left the M.E., not on it being a bad thing form him to be involved in saving the world. You'd have to be pretty backwards to think that for any character.

The thing is, any character can fall behind the excuse of trying to help save the world. And if that's all we're going to go by for any character, whether we like the character or not we shouldn't question any of them as to what they're doing in a plot. Meaning if Big the Cat or Cream the Rabbit is there, they're around to help save the world.

Again, it's not a BAD thing if he IS involved. Same thing with Tails always tagging along with Sonic, despite him contributing LESS to the effort than Knuckles would have.

Actually I see Tails as someone who contributes more when tagging along with Sonic than Knuckles, but he's not who we're focusing on at the moment.

And it's only a matter of time before the MILLIONS of minions he has under his control find the pieces and recombine them. B)

Provided that some peices weren't disintegrated in the process after being nuked, or before someone who is specialized in finding those pieces finds them first. B)

Unless the M.E has an AT Field, one strong surprise air strike and the rock is as good as stolen. Hell, all Eggman needed to do the first time was keep Knux distracted for a few seconds and he nearly had it all for himself.

We're talking about the most powerful object in the Sonic series. One that has infinite energy of it's own and has the power to out right neutralize the infinite power of the Chaos Emeralds or strengthen them beyond infinity; one that is capable of sealing one of the worlds most destructive beings on the planet; transcend time and space (oaky, many of you are not likely to go along with that, but this is from Rivals for any of you who didn't play it); and to some extent is almost sentient if we go by how it was treated in the Adventures.

It probably has something even better than an AT Field. B)

And if the whole team is after him to begin with, he'd be put out of commission before such a thing could occur.

If he's already stolen it, then tragedy has already happened. He'll lose, but he's going to do some serious damage before he gets beat. You know the good doctor isn't easy to take down. ;)

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Yes, if we're willing to let Knuckles get by on it. I honestly don't think we should have every character around for the sake of just saving the world, and that's where I think more detail should be added as to how the events involve them that require them to help out.

Not to make them selfish in them doing it only for themselves, but because we can see how much more serious the conflict is escalating to the point where it involves more of the cast. The threat should be treated and handled propotionally to the number of characters that get involved, and the reason for each character getting involved should be unique in the sense that it's not something other characters can fall back on, and every character and their mom (Vanilla laugh.gif) can fall back on saving the world as a reason for getting into the plot, but doing so would make it very easy to shred a sense of uniqueness to the characters that are involved.

That's where the M.E. plays it's role as Knuckles' shackles to his feet; by the M.E. being tied to Rad Red, his reasons for getting involved make it to where he isn't like every other character who follows the path of simply "saving the world for the greater good," maintaining a sense of uniqueness to him in the process. Without it, he's likely to border on becoming a Tails2, relegated as another sidekick for Sonic, unless some big time restructuring of his character is done to alleviate that. It's not bad that people tie the M.E. so heavily to Knuckles, it actually serves as a good thing; it serves as an indicator to where he is being used effectively and where he's not, and serves as a way to keep him from being seen as overused to where there's nothing more he can do.

Mind you, Knuckles isn't the only one with shackles to him that would prevent a misuse of his character. Several other character are in similar position. But if you're going to break those shackles and allow him to come around for the sake of saving the world, you're leaving the tools for others to do the same for other characters, and honestly, I'm not one who likes to see such a vague use of any character outside of Sonic, Eggman, and Tails to a lesser extent.

Well obviously. I wasn't suggesting shoehorning him in for the sake of saving the world, I'm saying that saving the world is enough of a reason for Knuckles to be off his island at the time; because it is a cause that's greater than keeping the(already well protected) M.E protected.

Tails gets off by default because he doesn't have anything to question why he's around, like the Emerald that I feel is what is deeply chained to Knuckles. He's pretty much as free as Sonic is, as he has no responsibilities to the extend any other character has. If Sonic is around, you can at the very least expect Tails and there's really nothing to question why he would be around at all. But Tails isn't the subject of discussion...

Fair enough.

Strategy.

Though I can kinda see where your coming from; if the rest of the world was taken over, you can bet that Knux would put the Island under immense security and take as many precautions towards keeping it safe while devising a way to turn the tables on the Big Bad.

If he's already stolen it, then tragedy has already happened. He'll lose, but he's going to do some serious damage before he gets beat. You know the good doctor isn't easy to take down. wink.gif

Well OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking about BEFORE he starts going after the M.E. The point of Knuckles coming to help would be justified in that he would be doing so to help stop his plans early, before he gets far enough to want the M.E as the cherry to his evil sundae of doom.

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Well obviously. I wasn't suggesting shoehorning him in for the sake of saving the world, I'm saying that saving the world is enough of a reason for Knuckles to be off his island at the time; because it is a cause that's greater than keeping the(already well protected) M.E protected.

Shoehorning him is practically what you would be inviting if the only reason he or any character would be around without any question if them saving the world is what they would be falling back on. And that's why I see the M.E. as something that prevents that or serves as a good indictator of it happening.

Him staying on his island guarding that powerful rock on his island is what should be his number one priority unless something directly threatens it to the point where he has to set foot off the island, and that's not being said without a good reason. It's no different if it were Rouge the Bat and her involvment in the GUN military taking action on something serious, or whoever you want to call out that seems to have a restriction in terms of how they should appear.

Well OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking about BEFORE he starts going after the M.E. The point of Knuckles coming to help would be justified in that he would be doing so to help stop his plans early, before he gets far enough to want the M.E as the cherry to his evil sundae of doom.

It doesn't matter to me what point Eggman starts going after the Master Emerald, he's just as likely to succeed in stealing it as he is to fail at it as well.

And should he actually succeed is what I'm more focused at. Most of Eggman's schemes fail right at the last moment after he adds the cherry to his evil sundae of doom, but even then he's already caused serious damage and uproar on one part of the globe.

If the M.E. becomes something that makes up a large part of his plan, rest assured that he's more likely to succeed in stealing it than he normally would if it was just a minor part.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Shoehorning him is practically what you would be inviting if the only reason he or any character would be around without any question if them saving the world is what they would be falling back on. And that's why I see the M.E. as something that prevents that or serves as a good indicator of it happening.

This just shifts it to shoehorning in the ME so that Knuckles can be included.

And should he actually succeed is what I'm more focused at. Most of Eggman's schemes fail right at the last moment after he adds the cherry to his evil sundae of doom, but even then he's already caused serious damage and uproar on one part of the globe.

Eggman's never done any damage with the ME, so he obviously doesn't really need it to cause any damage, therefore Knuckles should provide as much assistance in stopping him to minimize the damage.

I honestly think the manual makes a mess of things when you incorporate it into today's timeline.

SA 2 makes a mess of everything when you try to incorporate it into anything (even itself sometimes). Eggman states that he doesn't have any use for the ME, and the only reason he stole it was because it was interfering with his dragon emerald radar. I guess he meant no use except for a giant laser and an orbital space station, it's really easy to forget that.

This seems like a good time to remind you that we're talking about a game about forest critters stopping a scientist that supposedly looks like an egg from stealing stuff.

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Uhh, wasn't the Master Emerald completely irrelevant to the laser's functionality, said laser being all that Eggman really wanted to use on the ARK in the first place? It was nothing but a supposed neutralizer for the doomsday setting and the Biolizard, neither of which Eggman knew about until it was too late.

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