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The Fallen Cast...


CrownSlayer’s Shadow

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There's been so many (Many!) topics and dicussions regarding what is good and bad about Shadow that I don't really feel like going into it for the thousandth time. :lol:'

By my avatar and signature you might think I'm a Shadow 'tard, but I actually recognize his flaws as much as the next guy.

The one thing you have to admit though, is that he really generates a lot of passion in Sonic fans: both in the lovers, who tend to idolize him to the extreme, and in the haters, who are never as loud and concerned about something they don't like as they are with Shadow.

A character who can move people so much, positively or negatively as it may be, is something ever so precious to a series.

So, where would I see him going now?

His personality is trademark dark and that won't change, but it would be interesting to see him in a few lighthearted situations, maybe have him act in ankward ways like he does in Sonic Universe with Marine, just for seeing him in some unusual and funny scenes; he is a good guy now, after all.

Also, since his relationship with Team Dark was developed very nicely in Sonic06, I'd like to see him interact more with other characters in the series, have him stuck in situations where he is forced to socialize with someone else, be it cooperating or arguing/fighting.

But this is probably something I'd like to see more in general: there are so many characters that have been introduced very well, but then were just left there, having no interactions or bonds with anyone other than Sonic and maybe 1 other guy.

The Sonic side cast is so rich and varied, there's an unlimited amount of interesting, funny or serious interactions that could take place among the characters, and I think that's where Sega should move the series towards, once they finally (Finally!) stop with this tedious "Sonic-Solo-Adventure" trend. <_<

p.s. a big Thank You to CSS for making this topic, I've been enjoying lurking in it a lot these days. :D

Edited by ilcane87
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Hm, I'd say it's more of a case of depth than breadth. The series doesn't need to be light and fluffy all the time, it can have legitimately evil characters...but there's a certain depth that it "shouldn't" cross. Metal may be (potentially) more reprehensible than Shadow, but he doesn't need much depth to justify it; simply being Sonic's evil twin is enough to support the character, as long as it's kept to a similar level. But a lot of Shadow's character rests on some pretty deep themes; if the series can't go that deep, the character falls apart. How deep the series can go is up for debate, of course...

Agreed; I'd suppose that depth is the real issue. It's unarguable that Shadow's character is the deepest in the series by virtue of the fact that he's ot a lot of elaboration behind him. But if this makes any sense, I don't think he's necessarily so deep that he's unfitting, but the view of such might be exaggerated by the fact that his actual themes aren't chipper and lighthearted.

Understanding his character is something that, to me, isn't a cerebral effort any more strenuous than talking about Sonic. If anything, I think we can all gather significant conclusions about these characters, their actions, and what they stand for. But depth is always easily conflated with darkness, and I think that helps in giving this impression that Shadow is just way too complicated for the series to handle when anyone who watches the cutscenes will more than likely come out of the experience knowing near everything about the character.

But you're right, this is dependent upon one's individual barometer for depth and what counts as too much in this series, and that's probably a discussion for another day.

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Shadow's not that deep compared to characters like Wolverine, Sasuke or even Sephiroth. He's just another sterotypical foil to a shounen archetype.

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I wasn't around to see him return in 2004-06 so any backlash against his changes are my own. It's not that I think the series should be all bubbles and happiness, that's an opposite extreme. I just think there's a certain level of mature themes they can handle in a series like this, and Shadow tries to cross that line more than any other character. It's almost like they're forced to compromise on him. From Shadow's own experiences I'd expect him to be an even darker character, but what we get is more like fake pathos from him. Because of the maturity level of the series again. That's what I mean by emo, it makes him hard to take seriously.

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I wasn't around to see him return in 2004-06 so any backlash against his changes are my own. It's not that I think the series should be all bubbles and happiness, that's an opposite extreme. I just think there's a certain level of mature themes they can handle in a series like this, and Shadow tries to cross that line more than any other character. It's almost like they're forced to compromise on him. From Shadow's own experiences I'd expect him to be an even darker character, but what we get is more like fake pathos from him. Because of the maturity level of the series again. That's what I mean by emo, it makes him hard to take seriously.

LIke I said, Shadow's not that mature oriented as you see. Dark Foils and Troubled characters have been around since the early 60s. Shadow is tame compared to someone like Wolf o Connel or Wolverine, considering he was only a villain in his debut and operrated on a grand scale pertaining to his dark nature as a hedgehog that had everything taken from him and was left to seek vengence by a more depressed character who created him. Shadow is like Mewtwo, a badass loner who likes to prove his power and destroy friends and foes to execute certain agenda's.

Every since Adventure came out, the series has been focusing on more or less fleshed out storylines, even Sonic Adventure was a very different atmosphere compared to previous Sonic games.

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Shadow is tame compared to someone like Wolf o Connel or Wolverine

A vicious Tiger is tame compared to a Dinosaur. It's still dangerous shit.

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I wasn't around to see him return in 2004-06 so any backlash against his changes are my own. It's not that I think the series should be all bubbles and happiness, that's an opposite extreme. I just think there's a certain level of mature themes they can handle in a series like this, and Shadow tries to cross that line more than any other character. It's almost like they're forced to compromise on him. From Shadow's own experiences I'd expect him to be an even darker character, but what we get is more like fake pathos from him. Because of the maturity level of the series again. That's what I mean by emo, it makes him hard to take seriously.

To be fair, the only time Shadow ever really crossed that line on his own was his own game. Other characters more or less dragged themselves along the same way when it came to Sonic 06, so it's nolt like Shadow's the only character who crossed the line into more mature themes...depending on what you would call mature.

It was easier to take Shadow seriously as opposed to Sonic in Sonic 06, where the Blue Blur's character was not handled in the way it was in previous games. That's not saying that Shadow's character was really good, but that it doesn't lift an eyebrow as Sonic did for me at least in that game.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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So what do you guys think about his relationship with Sonic and friends anyways, remind you of any famous rivalries and clashes by any chance?

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^ See I guess that's my thing. As a fan of Archie canon I can deal with plenty of history and dark characters. But in the games it's like they wanted to bring Shadow in a dark direction, but couldn't because of the series' maturity level. That's why he's funny or awkward to listen to when he dishes out threats.

Also, agreed on '06. Shadow was probably best done there because he's in that gray area between real and fantasy, which is exactly what '06 tried to do.

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So what do you guys think about his relationship with Sonic and friends anyways, remind you of any famous rivalries and clashes by any chance?

Speaking of his relationships, I find it interesting how Shadow is one of the few characters to actually know the majority of the entire recurring cast of characters in more than just passing by them, and also one of the few to actually work outside of his own group.

His own game did a good thing the wrong way in accomplishing that. But still, the fact that he actually developed some means of a relationship with other characters is something I think most of us gloss over when we're not criticizing his game's storyline.

His relationship with Sonic nowadays is more so a friendly cross of paths. Aside from the "what if" endings in ShTH where he actually beat Sonic in the end, he's never had much of a rivalry with him anymore. Not that I actually care that much, because I want to see Shadow and Knuckles duke it out at one another...I saw it in Sonic X, but I want it to happen in the games with the same, no, greater sense of epicness than how he was presented in SA2 against Sonic.

We have a hot-headed guardian capable of punching through 10+ feet of concrete in one blow and creating small volcanos (exaggerating, I know :P), and we have a withdrawn living WMD with the power to vaporise a large city block and warp time. Tell me that wouldn't be epic and get pimp-slapped. B)

^ See I guess that's my thing. As a fan of Archie canon I can deal with plenty of history and dark characters. But in the games it's like they wanted to bring Shadow in a dark direction, but couldn't because of the series' maturity level. That's why he's funny or awkward to listen to when he dishes out threats.

Not exactly. More like they played Halo and GTA and tried to use those as a way to pull off another SA2 only to have it backfire.

Given that SA2 was the only game was done right in trying to pull of a really dark plot, the series' maturity level isn't blocked from dark and serious plots...well, so long as we're not trying to go too far over what SA2 did.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Shadow as a whole really isn't as out of place as his detractors try to make him out to be, no more of an anomaly than his classic counterpart Metal Sonic who is considered a cold, unfeeling, killing machine, the absolute worst thing an entity can be, something that completely forgoes the happier themes more than the death of a minor would, a line that Shadow himself canonically won't cross, but something that the fanbase still actually likes and welcomes because, hey, it's Metal Sonic and he's classic and cool and shtuff. Feh; It's bullcrap, I say.

What tends to matter more is the way in which something is presented, essentially, what it is presented as. This largely deals with how consistent the world of a given work presents itself with our own. Sonic dealing with serious themes is fine, the problem is how Sonic tries to present those themes in a realistic, direct manner. Imagine if, when Pixar made "A Bug's Life", instead of using a colony of ants ruled by a bunch of grasshoppers (or whatever they are) to depict one group being held servile to another via shock and awe, they instead just literally made a movie about North Korea or some other oppressive regime, but the people were ants.

Metal Sonic was painted in broad strokes, made to be a massive threat and to be Sonic's equal from the enemy ranks. He even did the finger wave. If I wanted to try and read deeper into it, he is the personification of what Sonic is working to stop.

With SA 2, they tried to make a story that was to be taken seriously at face value, and the same applies to Shadow, and it just doesn't work. Essentially, I think they should shoot for something more like Miyazaki than Tom Clancy because they're not about to tear out George Clooney's fingernails.

Also, everyone says Shadow acts more like a whiny kid or an emo or something, but there's always a significant lack of examples they bring forth. The farthest I've personally seen people explain, a term I use lightly, is when they sarcastically quote "Maria," but if saying the name of someone you cared about who has long since passed is emo and laughable, then you guys must REALLY hate this film.

When they try and have Shadow show an emotion it tends to be rife with melodrama and when they try and make him cool they're trying way too hard. Take the opening of Shadow the Hedgehog: Shadow is lamenting the name that everyone is calling him by that that he doesn't remember in a small windswept field under the light of the full moon in a city that is about to fall under siege by aliens. Oh, and I you can't just have your characters say how they feel, that makes me angry!

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What tends to matter more is the way in which something is presented, essentially, what it is presented as. This largely deals with how consistent the world of a given work presents itself with our own. Sonic dealing with serious themes is fine, the problem is how Sonic tries to present those themes in a realistic, direct manner. Imagine if, when Pixar made "A Bug's Life", instead of using a colony of ants ruled by a bunch of grasshoppers (or whatever they are) to depict one group being held servile to another via shock and awe, they instead just literally made a movie about North Korea or some other oppressive regime, but the people were ants.

Metal Sonic was painted in broad strokes, made to be a massive threat and to be Sonic's equal from the enemy ranks. He even did the finger wave. If I wanted to try and read deeper into it, he is the personification of what Sonic is working to stop.

With SA 2, they tried to make a story that was to be taken seriously at face value, and the same applies to Shadow, and it just doesn't work. Essentially, I think they should shoot for something more like Miyazaki than Tom Clancy because they're not about to tear out George Clooney's fingernails.

A North Korea film being played by CGI animals is now the same as one character of six having a tragic backdrop to serve as his motivation? SA2 is significantly comparable to Tom Clancy? These are quite the overt false equivalences, and one reason why I don't align myself with most people who say most of anything of Shadow's is too much for the series to properly support. It's just as over-the-top as they accuse Shadow of being.

And it's probably merely personal-- I don't see the series as generally being so ridiculously bereft of maturity as to be unable to handle SA2's narrative, considering since it was and still is appreciated by most people; I'd like to give it a bit more credit than that, especially since (going back to your NK example) I'm not a person who is apt at dismissing a character's ability to invoke drama and emotion based on their species or design. I've cried at the impending death of a group of toys; Feeling for an anthropomorphic hedgehog is not a stretch for me.

Going back to Metal Sonic, I would argue that he's not painted in broad strokes and is just as simple and direct as every other mainstay is. There's no thought at all needed to gauge the fact that his entire purpose is to painfully kill the main character. Furthermore, Metal Sonic is, as his fans on here tell me whenever I argue against his value, actually meant to be taken seriously. I'm apparently meant to believe that Metal is this extremely dangerous and terrifying threat that even Sonic has to be afraid of and keep on his toes to properly avoid, or he'll get a buzzsaw through the chest and teabagged with a rocket booster.

Meanwhile, Shadow has a friend of his murdered and wants retribution for a moment, a natural and far more empathetic reaction than most everything Metal's done, yet Shadow's themes are more unfitting for the series because it's obviously so light-hearted that it can handle a "frighteningly" homicidal robot with no positive qualities whatsoever that outright tells some cute, colorful animals to "Burn to death?" I don't really buy it. =/

When they try and have Shadow show an emotion it tends to be rife with melodrama and when they try and make him cool they're trying way too hard.

Shadow showing any emotion means melodrama? Shadow is unequivocally the most stoic character in the entire series, thus most of his shows of emotion tend to be downplayed in comparison to how those same emotions would manifest in other more emotional mainstays like Knuckles and Amy.

Take the opening of Shadow the Hedgehog: Shadow is lamenting the name that everyone is calling him by that that he doesn't remember in a small windswept field under the light of the full moon in a city that is about to fall under siege by aliens. Oh, and I you can't just have your characters say how they feel, that makes me angry!

I'm going to assume that a setting is the same as a show of emotion in a character and say you're really reaching with that one. You know what I and probably many, if not most other people who saw during the opening?

A reminiscing hedgehog standing in a field before getting involved in the invasion everyone knew was coming.

The gentle windswept field that is apparently supposed to be oh-so beautiful and dramatic was a simple vehicle for foreshadowing; I don't know about you, but I was reading the paper's headline against his leg and wondering how a comet was going to be involved (as well as gauging the fact that a paper covering his whole leg really reinforced his small size), not focusing my attention on the fact that a windswept field had the sheer audacity to even be there in the first place.

And I can't even recall just one time where I said to myself, "Yep, there's the moon," much less went on to think that it added to the melodrama, so I'll consider this my first real heads-up that the orbital rock is even in there. Assuming I even ever look at the sky in this scene, and not the obvious subjects of the scene being the moving newspaper and the anthropomorphic hedgehog, I catch the sun shining through the skyline for a brief moment, which obviously means...it's evening.

Ignoring the invasion, which was ironically handled in the quickest and most unfeeling manner ever, I think to have taken so many nearly insignificant elements that were more than likely just put there to make the setting believable in context and manage to equate them with melodrama is grasping.

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Shadow showing any emotion means melodrama?

I don't think so. But they haven't found an appropriate way to address his issues in the series. He's allowed to be sad, angry, or whatever, but he comes off as straight awkward and corny when he does. I really would've liked them to handle his past well, but I just don't think they did it.

Edited by Dabnikz
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Shadow is the most calm and reserved character of alll of them, his personality doesn't really display angst like people exxagerate him to. Shadow's dark, but he's not melancholy.

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While the actual narrative of his past gained unnecessary addendums, the crux of why Shadow is the way he is still remains intact anyways, so his actions are still no more nonsensical or invalidated than they were before ShtH hit. Regardless though, Shadow's emotions are handled with the same tact that everyone else's are. He's not some outlier that demands being singled out just because he has a past.

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When they try and have Shadow show an emotion it tends to be rife with melodrama and when they try and make him cool they're trying way too hard.

That's far from the truth. In most of SA2 he was on par with Sonic's general arrogance and cockiness but with his own flavor to it. And he showed the widest range of emotions in that game, ranging from a cocky smile to stoic to surprised, calm, show-offy (is that even an emotion?), indifferent...the list goes on.

I don't think he ever seemed pissed off in that game tho, despite how vengeful he was throughout majority of the plot. But calling it melodrama is a big stretch just for him showing emotion.

Take the opening of Shadow the Hedgehog: Shadow is lamenting the name that everyone is calling him by that that he doesn't remember in a small windswept field under the light of the full moon in a city that is about to fall under siege by aliens.

Not seeing the melodrama...or any kind of drama at all in that. That sounds more like reminiscing than anything...

Not to mention his emotions vary in that game as much as it did in SA2, except that the way the plot tried to carry it only ended up with it giving the opposite effect to the audience. That wasn't his best portrayal (without a doubt his worst considering how it was executed), but there was more to his emotions to simply be called melodramatic.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Shadow's emotions are handled with the same tact that everyone else's are. He's not some outlier that demands being singled out just because he has a past.

This is where we disagree then. Shadow relied heavily on his past as a character. Because of his the serious nature of his story in a kids game, it needs to be handled carefully or it turns into a bad sci-fi flick. If Knuckles had some tragic element added to his past I'd feel the same way.

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I guess being the last of his kind, being confused about his lonely fate, and nearly doomed to be alone on an island for the better part of the majority of his life is all just sunshine and rainbows and has no affect on his personality? After all, his campaign in SA1 begins and ends with some pretty downer monologues; Even his resignation that he'd never understand all of it was still bittersweet.

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^ Knuckles' story often involves his people's past, but his character isn't heavily invested in it. If we learned how Knuckles was eventually orphaned, and it was some kind of murder of his parents then yeah. That is potentially disastrous. All I'm saying is Shadow's story should have been told better.

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^ I actually agree on that for the most part, but I think he was easily portrayed best in Sonic Adventure 2. That story played out quite well. He was just brought back in a very shitty way; that's the real issue I see. If they did what I had originally THOUGHT, in that Shadow's "amnesia" was simply he did not know how he survived the fall and wanted to know what happened, I definitely think he would've turned out much better overall.

I don't know where I heard that story, but it was definitely better than him having no memory of his past at all. Also, the one good thing I saw in the only amnesia situation, namely, the Shadow Androids... why did I think it was good? Well, it WOULD have been, if it was done right. Shadow the Hedgehog tried to play it out somewhat, but it just fell flat on its face. It would've been an awesome situation to see Eggman actually fool Shadow into believing that he created him. I honestly feel that this is Eggman's main purpose behind the androids in the first place--so that he can get the power of the REAL ultimate life form completely and totally devoted to him.

But yeah, it fell flat on its face. Sucks.

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Shadow's game could have had three separate stories. Robotnik kills him in the first one because he's really an android. Then an evil story under the influences of the Black Arms. Then a good story after Shadow comes to his senses. In fact if I start writing fan comics I fully intend to adapt ShtH that way.

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If you ask me, ShtH's narrative shouldn't have even happened the way it did; Shadow's past was already strong enough to stand on its own two feet. And at the end of Team Dark's campaign, Shadow basically declares that he's pretty content with being an amnesiac because right and wrong is all that matters, yadda yadda yadda. xP

In fact, the only two dangling threads left were "How did Shadow survive?" and "What is Eggman gonna use those robots for?" A single story arc to answer those two questions would've produced infinitely better results than what we ultimately got. Really, did we need to know part of the biological origins of Shadow? Did we need to know what the Eclipse Cannon was really made for? The explanations makes sense and don't really retcon anything, but it was tacked on for no good reason.

For all intents and purposes, The Black Arms, or at least their relation to Shadow, Gerald, and the ARK, should've never existed.

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For all intents and purposes, The Black Arms, or at least their relation to Shadow, Gerald, and the ARK, should've never existed.

The developers shouldn't have tried to go off of Halo. 'Tis all I'm sayin'. :lol:

I've always wondered how he got amnesia if Eggman's robot had saved him, it would've made more sense if he had hit the ground. Sonic hit the ground head first once before, although ironically he didn't get amnesia. Both of them would've hit the ground at the same speed, so...you know what, I'm not even going to get into the science of all that.

I'd say if it weren't for the Black Arms, Shadow would've been a more ambiguous character in terms of who's side he would've been on. After their invasion, it almost cemented Shadow as being more of a hero than any anti-hero, although hopefully at some point he could still be an anti-hero.

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