The Fallen Cast...

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Which is exactly what he's doing by willingly saving the world. And as far as I know, Maria didn't ask him to promise her to make the people happy with the catch of, "You have to mention me in some form forever so that the audience is spoon-fed the fact that the promise you made to me to save the world is indeed your motivation." It's silly.

When it's got to the point that I, as an audience member, am questioning whether he even remembers Maria's name any more, then yes, I guess I would like some spoon-feeding.

That wasn't my point, either. Simply put, you're equating Shadow's tragedies with Knuckles' duties of guardianship as if Shadow isn't allowed to move on like Knuckles wouldn't be allowed to leave The Master Emerald alone forever, which in turn suggests that getting over the wrongdoing that happened to you actually has similar tangible consequences of leaving an extremely powerful object behind for anyone to steal. It's a false equivalence of the highest order.

You're implying that Knuckles guards the ME only because shit would go down if he didn't. This does not seem to be the case; if it was, he'd get less pissy about accepting help. Knux guards the ME because he sees it as his fated, lonely duty to protect it. Even if it were just a big shiny rock with no special powers at all, I'd wager he'd still guard it out of loyalty to a dead culture that now consists only of himself.

You're essentially saying that Shadow can (should?) abandon Maria's memory simply because nothing will explode if he does. I'm saying that while this may be true, Shadow, like Knuckles, shouldn't want to move on and cast off his tragic past. Like the Master Emerald, it's a large rock weighing the character down, but, like the Master Emerald, at the same time it's what made him what he was in SA2.

[Nepenthe]

When it's got to the point that I, as an audience member, am questioning whether he even remembers Maria's name any more, then yes, I guess I would like some spoon-feeding.

Yet most of the other audience members here do not see a problem, which effectively establishes a status quo for the dilemma and raises the question about whether said spoon-feeding is even appropriate.

You're implying that Knuckles guards the ME only because shit would go down if he didn't. This does not seem to be the case; if it was, he'd get less pissy about accepting help. Knux guards the ME because he sees it as his fated, lonely duty to protect it. Even if it were just a big shiny rock with no special powers at all, I'd wager he'd still guard it out of loyalty to a dead culture that now consists only of himself.

You're essentially saying that Shadow can (should?) abandon Maria's memory simply because nothing will explode if he does. I'm saying that while this may be true, Shadow, like Knuckles, shouldn't want to move on and cast off his tragic past. Like the Master Emerald, it's a large rock weighing the character down, but, like the Master Emerald, at the same time it's what made him what he was in SA2.

Just to be clear, I am not implying that Shadow can or should abandon Maria's memory because I've already explained he honors her by saving the world anyways. What I am saying is that he, like any sane person in the world, doesn't need to talk about their cherished memories all the time for those memories to possess any validity.

However, I am indeed saying that Knuckles guards the Master Emerald primarily because its dangerous. His belief that his fate is inevitably linked to the Master Emerald is ultimately run-off from the fact that he guards it to prevent shit from hitting the fan.

Remember, the only reason it even has a line of guardians is because it's a dangerous object that needs guarding; Ergo, if the Master Emerald was just a plain old rock, it wouldn't be able to be misused in a way that would threaten lives, thus the echidnas wouldn't have appointed guardians, and thus Knuckles would effectively be a free man and he wouldn't feel beholden to "honor a dead culture" by wasting that freedom away sitting his behind on a lonely island.

These circumstances are in no way equal to Shadow's. Despite the fact that Maria's murder is and still is a nice motivation for Shadow to do good, he would arguably not forego those tendencies to do good if she was still alive or had died from natural causes. That's because Shadow is innately a good person regardless; He was obviously good in the past, he proved himself good in SA2, and he's been good ever since. Shadow's acts of heroism, despite being partially motivated by Maria's death, are not specifically dependent upon that to be.

Shadow's heart is not 100% justifed by the fact that Maria died. However, Knuckles' duty is 100% justified by the fact that he was appointed to the position because the rock is dangerous.

[Rusty Spy]

When it's got to the point that I, as an audience member, am questioning whether he even remembers Maria's name any more, then yes, I guess I would like some spoon-feeding.

Well that's your problem then, considering how it's only been ONE game that Shadow hasn't mentioned Maria.

You're implying that Knuckles guards the ME only because shit would go down if he didn't.

Well yeah, because the last time someone interfered with the ME, it resulted in the DEATH OF THE MAJORITY OF HIS CLAN.

Even if it were just a big shiny rock with no special powers at all, I'd wager he'd still guard it out of loyalty to a dead culture that now consists only of himself.

I'd wager that he not because his culture would have no reason to protect it, because they wouldn't be DEAD.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Black Spy

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Well that's your problem then, considering how it's only been ONE game that Shadow hasn't mentioned Maria.

Three. Rivals series.

I'd wager that he not because his culture would have no reason to protect it, because they wouldn't be DEAD.

Bleh, Fleetway made Knux's duty be much more "ancient tradition that must be observed FOR ITS OWN SAKE" than "ancient tradition that must be observed TO STOP VILLAINS". Knux wouldn't approve of people coming near the ME even if they had an exceptionally reasonable, good-aligned justification for doing so, and I kinda liked that sort of dogged fundamentalism from him.

However, I am indeed saying that Knuckles guards the Master Emerald primarily because its dangerous. His belief that his fate is inevitably linked to the Master Emerald is ultimately run-off from the fact that he guards it to prevent shit from hitting the fan.

Remember, the only reason it even has a line of guardians is because it's a dangerous object that needs guarding; Ergo, if the Master Emerald was just a plain old rock, it wouldn't be able to be misused in a way that would threaten lives, thus the echidnas wouldn't have appointed guardians, and thus Knuckles would effectively be a free man and he wouldn't feel beholden to "honor a dead culture" by wasting that freedom away sitting his behind on a lonely island.

Eh, disagree. If Knux was concerned about the safety of the world first and foremost, and guarded the ME purely as a means of maintaining that safety, I think he'd get on with the rest of the cast far better than he actually does. As it is, it seems he's more like Blaze was right until the end of Rush; if there's Guardian-ing to be doing, he'll do it himself, pragmatics be damned.

I certainly think he personally places more emphasis on the ME as a cultural artefact of his clan than he does on it just being something he has to keep out of villain's hands. His concern is more "JOO TOOK MAH EMWOODS!!" than it is "Oh no, the world is in danger". But I digress. I got no proof and it's just a matter of taste.

...as, it seems, is the case with Shadow. It seems to me that the complete word-moratorium on "Maria" since Shadow said goodbye to his past in ShtH implies that the game designers want us (and Shadow himself) to just forget all about Maria entirely. Not everyone gets that vibe, so fine.

Either way, I think he should invoke Maria more. My opinion on the whole thing is that the past-obsession brings more to his character than it detracts.

IN OTHER NEWS

As with Rouge, Shadow needs to play up his bad side more. He originally came to the series as an enemy of Sonic, and even now he certainly isn't a sunshine-and-flowers good-aligned character at all. I think he would benefit character-wise from fighting against Sonic rather than with him all the time.

It's not as easy as it was with Rouge to contrive techniques by which Shadow could find himself on the wrong side of the Hero / Villain line. For the bat, $$$ can always be the clincher; Shadow's affections are rather less negociable.

...so I'll fall back to the possibility of Shadow being Robotnik's right-hand-man. The easiest way to do this, I always thought, would be for Robotnik to exploit Shadow's debt to his family. Indeed, he tries this a bit in ShtH, iirc, in one of the ARK endings - where Shadow agrees to let him go (rather than stone-cold murder his ass) because Ivo pulls a successful "My grandfather created you, and you'll repay him by killing me?!". I think Robotnik could at least use the same patrilineal guilt tactic to rope Shadow into being an occasional errand boy.

Thinking about it, he may have doen this already, because Shadow does rush to help Robotnik after recieving his transmission at the start of Rivals 1. If Robotnik wasn't using Gerald's memory to coerce Shads into compliance, the other possibility - equally believable - is that Shadow simply likes Robotnik's style. The two of them are alike in some ways; wrathful and occasionally ruthless, with a determination to take what they want no matter who's disapproval they attract. This vibe is best exemplified in 06 when Shads busts in on Radical Train - Eggman's totally nonchalant and affably gives Shadow at least some hints for his mission, while Shads makes no effort to threaten Eggman personally despite the fact that he's just whomped all his guards.

Whether Shadow would continue to bat for Eggman as a global conquest plot nears fruition is... questionable, but I can certainly see Shadow relishing the opportunity to fight against Sonic in the early/mid stages of a game.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Phos]

This reminds me of a thing I was never able to figure out with Shadow and SA 2 - What was his motivation and why did that lead to him to trying to destroy the human race? Did he remember Maria's last request or was he already suffering from amnesia? If he actually remembered her last request, why would that lead him to trying to destroy the whole world instead of just GUN?*

And then I recall hearing that somewhere along the way it was revealed that Shadow didn't actually know Maria for an extended period of time and that most of his memories from the Ark were implanted (maybe).

*For the record, I could totally get behind destroying GUN... Though I'd want to do it in a much more meta sense than simply blowing it up.

I've always thought that the most interesting thing to do with Shadow right now would be to have him try and find a place for himself in the world. Just having him work for GUN or whatever seems like a cop out.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

This reminds me of a thing I was never able to figure out with Shadow and SA 2 - What was his motivation and why did that lead to him to trying to destroy the human race? Did he remember Maria's last request or was he already suffering from amnesia? If he actually remembered her last request, why would that lead him to trying to destroy the whole world instead of just GUN?

Was it not that Gerald fucked with Shadow's head as a last act of spite, brain-programming him to be the old man's instrument of vengeance?

[Rusty Spy]

If Knux was concerned about the safety of the world first and foremost, and guarded the ME purely as a means of maintaining that safety, I think he'd get on with the rest of the cast far better than he actually does. As it is, it seems he's more like Blaze was right until the end of Rush; if there's Guardian-ing to be doing, he'll do it himself, pragmatics be damned.

He was marooned on a floating island for all of his life, and thus, has very poor social skills.

It seems to me that the complete word-moratorium on "Maria" since Shadow said goodbye to his past in ShtH implies that the game designers want us (and Shadow himself) to just forget all about Maria entirely

Or that Shadow has grown out of his past and attempts to focus on the future.

This reminds me of a thing I was never able to figure out with Shadow and SA 2 - What was his motivation and why did that lead to him to trying to destroy the human race? Did he remember Maria's last request or was he already suffering from amnesia? If he actually remembered her last request, why would that lead him to trying to destroy the whole world instead of just GUN?*

It was implied that Gerald implanted fake memories into Shadow to skew Maria's wish into enacting revenge on the world.

[JaidynReiman]

This reminds me of a thing I was never able to figure out with Shadow and SA 2 - What was his motivation and why did that lead to him to trying to destroy the human race? Did he remember Maria's last request or was he already suffering from amnesia? If he actually remembered her last request, why would that lead him to trying to destroy the whole world instead of just GUN?*

And then I recall hearing that somewhere along the way it was revealed that Shadow didn't actually know Maria for an extended period of time and that most of his memories from the Ark were implanted (maybe).

*For the record, I could totally get behind destroying GUN... Though I'd want to do it in a much more meta sense than simply blowing it up.

I've always thought that the most interesting thing to do with Shadow right now would be to have him try and find a place for himself in the world. Just having him work for GUN or whatever seems like a cop out.

I believe Gerald messed with Shadow's memories himself in order to fulfill HIS dying wish. Gerald was a wise, intelligent man, but his descent into madness created this whole scenario. I suspect that he had some access to Shadow before he was executed. Either way, its heavily implied that Gerald essentially "reprogrammed" Shadow, though moreso just messing with Shadow's mind.

I don't think GUN is a cop out. I actually think its quite clever--Shadow finds his own purpose with helping the world and fulfilling Maria's wish by aiding GUN, but in the background he does his own thing. That's essentially what he's doing in Sonic Chronicles and Sonic Rivals 2. He MIGHT be working with GUN in Sonic Rivals, but that can't be accurately determined.

The only game that "really" shows Shadow working for GUN in Sonic '06, but considering the fact that Archie is often made to follow in line similarly to the games, Shadow joining GUN there was probably directed by Sega, indicating that him being a GUN member is a longer-term situation that simply hasn't been shown in more than one game.

[Badnik Zero]

I don't consider Shadow to be very heroic at all. I agree that he acts to honor Maria, and maybe out of regret for the ARK incident. I also get the sense that Maria's being phased out of his story, so he can become the GUN agent like Frozen said. He's becoming a very ordinary cast member now that he's away from his role.

Not ordinary in a regular sense, ordinary as in plain. Any mission GUN would want to send him on is something he could choose to do himself. But presumably he has no reason to go around on his own unless GUN calls him on the phone? I think he does, and I'd like to see those reasons explored.

I dunno why I keep referencing Spider-Man in these character topics, maybe it's just another series that I'm familiar with canonically. But I think another redemption moment would be nice for him, like when Spider-Man has to save those girls falling from bridges to symbolically avenge his dead girlfriend Gwen.

Shadow's big hero moment was the Black Comet business, but honestly I don't think we gave a shit about the Black Comet. And it only related to his past in the most retroactive and forced way possible. I want to know what Shadow would do if faced with an ARK situation again. Rising above that would settle his past.

[Nepenthe]

The majority of Shadow's campaign in Sonic 06 has him engaging in the adventure without GUN's involvement or consent. And when he actually was being consulted by GUN, his mission's goal hadn't much to do with the overarching plot; Ironically, it was only when the mission went to Hell that Shadow was allowed to get into play.

[Phos]

Was it not that Gerald fucked with Shadow's head as a last act of spite, brain-programming him to be the old man's instrument of vengeance?

I've heard that, but the flashbacks that he does have don't seem consistent with that. Am I to assume that Gerald just eliminated her request and Shadow just guessed he should be out for revenge? Was Gerald's meddling with Shadow's memories ever brought up in Adventure 2? I don't see where the villainy in all this comes from.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Am I to assume that Gerald just eliminated her request and Shadow just guessed he should be out for revenge? Was Gerald's meddling with Shadow's memories ever brought up in Adventure 2?

Yes, because that's exactly what is implied in Gerald's Diary during SA2 where he said he made Shadow's mind to be "perfect" and "pure", daring someone to release him.

I mean, seriously, you ever noticed the exact same thoughts that both Shadow and Gerald shared about getting revenge on the humans for their loss and how Maria greatly impacted their thirst for revenge? Gerald wanted to kill all the humans on Earth, but since he wouldn't be around to do so at any point after being arrested, he had Shadow carry out the act in his place.

Watch at 3:10. You'll see where it is implied that Gerald manipulated Shadow's mind.

Edited July 18, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I've heard that, but the flashbacks that he does have don't seem consistent with that. Am I to assume that Gerald just eliminated her request and Shadow just guessed he should be out for revenge? Was Gerald's meddling with Shadow's memories ever brought up in Adventure 2? I don't see where the villainy in all this comes from.

Gerald states outright that he did it in his 'execution video diary!' during the Last Story.

What doesn't add up, of course, is when exactly he was given the opportunity to do so. He wasn't insane until after GUN had killed Maria and arrested him, which implies that GUN - rather stupidly - must have let him work on Shadow's brain after they had both Shadow and Gerald in custody planetside? Or something?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What doesn't add up, of course, is when exactly he was given the opportunity to do so. He wasn't insane until after GUN had killed Maria and arrested him, which implies that GUN - rather stupidly - must have let him work on Shadow's brain after they had both Shadow and Gerald in custody planetside? Or something?

They probably still intended to use Shadow as a weapon...so that would make GUN rather stupid to let him work on the project even more.

In any case, has everyone said their thoughts about the Black Blur, or do we want to keep the discussion on him going further?

Edited July 18, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

I think the bigger question is, HOW WAS GERALD ABLE TO REPROGRAM THE ARK TO GO ON A COLLISION COURSE FOR EARTH, HAVE HIS EXECUTION AND DECLARATION OF VENGEANCE NOT ONLY RECORDED, BUT HAVE THAT FOOTAGE CUED TO BE PLAYED THROUGHOUT NOT ONLY THE ARK, BUT TO PLAY ON EVERY VIDEO DEVICE ON EARTH IN THE EVENT SOMEONE WERE TO PLACE ALL SEVEN CHAOS EMERALDS INTO THE ECLIPSE CANNON?!

Not only would that require camera's to be secretly placed in the execution room, but have the recording wired to some type of satellite that's designed to interfere with all other satellite frequencies so that only his recording will play, as well as have all of this programmed into the Ark so that it all occurs the moment the chaos emeralds are placed into the Eclipse Cannon.... oh yeah, and make the colony fall out of orbit? All while being imprisoned on a top security prison ISLAND.

I've only been able to think of one logical explanation....... PROFESSOR GERALD ROBOTNIK IS LIGHT YAGAMI!!!

That, or the guys there must be VERY lenient with their prisoner's freedom.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Black Spy

[Phos]

Yes, because that's exactly what is implied in Gerald's Diary during SA2 where he said he made Shadow's mind to be "perfect" and "pure", daring someone to release him.

I mean, seriously, you ever noticed the exact same thoughts that both Shadow and Gerald shared about getting revenge on the humans for their loss and how Maria greatly impacted their thirst for revenge? Gerald wanted to kill all the humans on Earth, but since he wouldn't be around to do so at any point after being arrested, he had Shadow carry out the act in his place.

Watch at 3:10. You'll see where it is implied that Gerald manipulated Shadow's mind.

I know that much. What's missing is how the changes that Gerald made to Shadow would lead him to seek revenge vs. the entire world. Because he removed that one sentence, Shadow decides to destroy the world? How did he know Shadow would do that? Is that the only change he made? If he did, we never see any signs of it.

[Rusty Spy]

I know that much. What's missing is how the changes that Gerald made to Shadow would lead him to seek revenge vs. the entire world. Because he removed that one sentence, Shadow decides to destroy the world? How did he know Shadow would do that? Is that the only change he made? If he did, we never see any signs of it.

I always assumed the game implied that the memories were skewed to have Maria wish vengeance, just that it was never explicitly told to us. In one flashback Shadow has at Radical Highway you only hear Maria say "Please do it for me". We never hear what exactly Maria wanted Shadow to do for her, we can only take Shadow's word for it.

[Badnik Zero]

Not only would that require camera's to be secretly placed in the execution room, but have the recording wired to some type of satellite that's designed to interfere with all other satellite frequencies so that only his recording will play...

A satellite like a massive space station designed after your face? Because the ARK's gotta have massive broadcasting potential.

I think the recording was GUN's. It's not crazy to think they'd record Gerald's execution. He was probably charged with some pretty heavy stuff, no one objected.

Also, you could say Shadow was programmed into his revenge without Gerald's direct intervention. He had to have loyalists.

It reminds me of the book Neuromancer, about an AI in orbit secretly paying people to do its dirty work. Hell it could be the Biolizard working through computers.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Core]

I think the recording was GUN's. It's not crazy to think they'd record Gerald's execution. He was probably charged with some pretty heavy stuff, no one objected.

Yes, but the problem is not that the execution was recorded; the problem is that the recording was programmed to be broadcast when all 7 Chaos Emeralds are inserted into the ARK. Someone had to program this, and it couldn't have been Gerald since he died just at the end of the recording. However...

Not only would that require camera's to be secretly placed in the execution room

I was under the impression that the "execution room" was Gerald's cell, what with the calculations on the wall behind him.

And I think Sonic X showed that Gerald had a computer in his cell? (Or am I remembering it wrong?)

A satellite like a massive space station designed after your face? Because the ARK's gotta have massive broadcasting potential.

I agree with this. The ARK's worldwide broadcasting ability also appeared in the Last Story of Shadow's game. (It even worked within the Black Comet, for some reason.)

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Yes, but the problem is not that the execution was recorded; the problem is that the recording was programmed to be broadcast when all 7 Chaos Emeralds are inserted into the ARK. Someone had to program this, and it couldn't have been Gerald since he died just at the end of the recording. However...

Maybe he pre-uploaded an algorithm into GUN's computers that would (later) automatically search GUN's database for his execution video, and then go reprogram the ARK?

This is Gerald Robotnik we're talking about. Guy had 1337 h4x.

[Badnik Zero]

The Biolizard was the mastermind. He survived in the ARK all those years, and was bored. He began to pull strings from orbit.

[Rusty Spy]

This kinda reminds me of Law Abiding Citizen except the mastermind is already dead.

[Phos]

It kinda bugged me how the entire time they make you wonder how he's doing it without getting out,

and then it just turns out that he has a tunnel.

I always assumed the game implied that the memories were skewed to have Maria wish vengeance, just that it was never explicitly told to us. In one flashback Shadow has at Radical Highway you only hear Maria say "Please do it for me". We never hear what exactly Maria wanted Shadow to do for her, we can only take Shadow's word for it.

This concept still falls flat because Maria requesting revenge in that sort of voice doesn't make a great deal of sense... Or are we to assume that Shadow is so predisposed/has been made to be predisposed towards violence that he tries to destroy the world because he doesn't remember anyone telling him to not destroy the world? Oh well, not like it's the only time SA 2's story didn't make any sense.

The Biolizard was the mastermind. He survived in the ARK all those years, and was bored. He began to pull strings from orbit.

I never really got the idea the Biolizard was conscious until the last story, and even then he was essentially running on a program to prevent the Arc from being stopped.

Also, Shadow seems to look like Sonic for no reason other than so that Sonic would be framed for Shadow's crimes. We never get an in universe explanation for them looking similar. There's that fanon business about Gerald basing Shadow off an inscription that looks like Super Sonic, but the only time he ever played archeologist was in Sonic Battle and that I'm pretty sure Gerald never was on the Floating Island.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Phos

[Nomad_350]

Also, Shadow seems to look like Sonic for no reason other than so that Sonic would be framed for Shadow's crimes. We never get an in universe explanation for them looking similar. There's that fanon business about Gerald basing Shadow off an inscription that looks like Super Sonic, but the only time he ever played archeologist was in Sonic Battle and that I'm pretty sure Gerald never was on the Floating Island.

If that's true it's a shame because that would be a really neat piece of backstory. I'd buy that. =P

[Rusty Spy]

This concept still falls flat because Maria requesting revenge in that sort of voice doesn't make a great deal of sense...

Even with a fatal bullet wound(s) and on your dieing breath?