The Fallen Cast...

[Diogenes]

This concept still falls flat because Maria requesting revenge in that sort of voice doesn't make a great deal of sense... Or are we to assume that Shadow is so predisposed/has been made to be predisposed towards violence that he tries to destroy the world because he doesn't remember anyone telling him to not destroy the world?

You're talking as if Gerald only tweaked one sentence of one memory. It was more likely closer to a full on brainwashing, to make his mind "perfect, pure". I mean, it's not as if he was just sent out to do whatever evil stuff tickled his fancy; he carried out a very specific and meticulously planned scheme.

There's that fanon business about Gerald basing Shadow off an inscription that looks like Super Sonic, but the only time he ever played archeologist was in Sonic Battle and that I'm pretty sure Gerald never was on the Floating Island.

We do know he's responsible for the Artificial Chaos (SA2 leaves it open, but ShtH explicitly says they're his doing). If he knew of one piece of obscure ancient echidnean history, it isn't all that unlikely that he could get his hands on more.

[Phos]

Even with a fatal bullet wound(s) and on your dieing breath?

I could see him wanting to get some revenge, but that seems like a very specific result from a very vague stimulus.

You're talking as if Gerald only tweaked one sentence of one memory. It was more likely closer to a full on brainwashing, to make his mind "perfect, pure". I mean, it's not as if he was just sent out to do whatever evil stuff tickled his fancy; he carried out a very specific and meticulously planned scheme.

The game kinda gives that impression, because the only thing it takes to make him stop wanting to destroy the world was Amy unintentionally reminding him what Maria's wish actually was. It doesn't seem to me that they actually showed any other signs of brainwashing on Shadow. I guess you could take his otherwise irrational behavior as a sign of being brainwashed, but that seems like a pretty large mental leap to make, especially considering he becomes perfectly rational after that one reminder.

We do know he's responsible for the Artificial Chaos (SA2 leaves it open, but ShtH explicitly says they're his doing). If he knew of one piece of obscure ancient echidnean history, it isn't all that unlikely that he could get his hands on more.

Was it actually based on Echidna history? I haven't play much of Shadow the Hedgehog.

[Diogenes]

The game kinda gives that impression, because the only thing it takes to make him stop wanting to destroy the world was Amy unintentionally reminding him what Maria's wish actually was. It doesn't seem to me that they actually showed any other signs of brainwashing on Shadow. I guess you could take his otherwise irrational behavior as a sign of being brainwashed, but that seems like a pretty large mental leap to make, especially considering he becomes perfectly rational after that one reminder.

Well, Shadow's memory of Maria is basically the linchpin of the whole thing; Shadow never questions what he's doing because MARIA MARIA MARIA, but once he realizes what Maria really wanted, he realizes everything he had done, everything Gerald put into his head, is a horrible mistake.

Was it actually based on Echidna history? I haven't play much of Shadow the Hedgehog.

Well, they're Artificial Chaos. The only civilization that we know of that had any contact with Chaos was the Knuckles tribe. It's not technically impossible that Gerald found out about Chaos from something else, but that seems to be adding additional parties needlessly.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Well, they're Artificial Chaos. The only civilization that we know of that had any contact with Chaos was the Knuckles tribe. It's not technically impossible that Gerald found out about Chaos from something else, but that seems to be adding additional parties needlessly.

The OTHER reason it would make sense for Gerald to have gone to the Floating Island is that he was able to exactly replicate a Master Emerald Shrine in the core of the Eclipse Cannon.

[Dejablue]

Yeah Gerald must have done some kind of research to build that shrine. He couldn't have just guessed or read about it in a book.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay, I've been a bit lazy lately, so why don't we move on to another character? Since we've all said our thoughts on one "fake" hedgehog, let's move on to another "fake" hedgehog?

This time, we're getting on Metal Sonic.

We all know him most either from Sonic CD or Sonic Heroes, and make no doubt about it that he has potential within this series.

Where as Shadow was simply created to be the Ultimate LifeForm only to combat Sonic during his debut and his own game, Metal was created in his own words "for the sole purpose of destroying [sonic]!" Apparently, his programming evolved him past simply destroying Sonic and sought himself in ruling the world in place of Eggman.

Honestly, for a character with so much potential (geez, I say that for every damn character don't I? ), he's gotten the shortest end of the stick in terms of being used. All he did in Sonic CD was capture Amy and race Sonic, while he was suspended in a capsule in SA1, and he only then got a major role in Sonic Heroes where he was the mastermind behind all that was going on. There's the rivals, but let's be fair here, it wasn't any major difference of his use in Rivals 1, and Rivals 2 was moreso Eggman being in control...from what I've heard of Rivals 2 at the very least.

With Heroes containing the biggest role he's ever gotten in this series, they've not actually done a decent job with it. We never knew his motives in his betrayal against his creator in the first place, nor did we get much detail on his other motives that wasn't simplified to his antagonism towards Sonic. I will be fair and say that Heroes plot was poor to begin with, but still, that could've been done much better with more detail. So while Metal has gotten the short end of the stick, Shadow's done all what Metal has and more.

Honestly, I think he should've kept his AI and actually stayed as Eggman's right hand robot before betraying him. With the time he's spent in suspended animation, it's good that Sonic Team hasn't forgotten him at the very least prior to Heroes. But with him being such an underused character, I can't help but think they're not doing him any justice.

So what's your input on the metal doppelganger?

[Diogenes]

The OTHER reason it would make sense for Gerald to have gone to the Floating Island is that he was able to exactly replicate a Master Emerald Shrine in the core of the Eclipse Cannon.

Ah, right, that too. Somehow I always forget that one...

So on to Metal Sonic. Metal, purely limited to the game version...is massively overrated. I'm talking almost Shadow-levels of overrated; the difference is that Metal isn't quite so fanboyishly worshiped, and Shadow has actually done things to gain some of his popularity. Before Heroes, he really only had one significant role; Sonic CD. And all he did in that was capture Amy and lose a race; we don't even get a proper boss fight out of him. Heroes, while it did some interesting things with his personality, kept him in disguise for 99% of the game, then had him in his pretty ridiculous looking "Neo" form for a few seconds, then turned him into Generic Final Boss #3. The game really didn't play to his strengths; it gave him this power-copying-power and Terminator-esque liquid form purely so he could hide for most of the game and then turn into a big monster. Plus, for his first real story-heavy (it's odd to use that term for Heroes, but) role, it's kind of odd to have him go straight for world domination; the games hadn't set up any sort of personality for him yet, much less one that justifies that. As for the Rivals games, I'm not particularly familiar with them, but to my knowledge Metal is basically lobotomized compared to his Heroes version and mostly serves as a walkie talkie for Eggman. That's...well, it's definitely not the direction they should take the character.

The main problem with Metal is that he's just not used that often, and when he is, he's kind of a gimmick. What I'd like to see happen is for him to become a consistent subordinate of Eggman; he takes orders, leads the troops, fights the heroes when they get too close, and has to put up with Eggman's rambling. At the same time he should have an independent streak; Heroes was right to make him rebellious, but they went way too far with it. As a copy of Sonic, I could see his loyalty programming clashing with his "be like Sonic, but evil!" programming, especially in the conflict between him and the real Sonic. Give him a long enough leash that he can still be his own character, not just one of Eggman's underlings, but make it short enough that he still feels chained by it, and there are times when he's got to choose between loyalty (or at least appearing loyal) and his own interests (mostly trying to kill Sonic, I'd imagine).

[JaidynReiman]

Agreed with Diogenes for the most part. Metal Sonic... just hasn't really DONE anything. Metal Sonic is a pawn, pure and simple. He is completely and totally devoted to Eggman, devoid of any emotion whatsoever. The only decent plot role he had was Sonic Heroes, where he actually gained his own personality (due to Eggman enhancing him), but that didn't play out so well, either.

For Metal Sonic to REALLY get a good standing, he's got to constantly be leading Eggman's troops. Which I doubt is going to happen.

Oh yes, on the subject of Gerald... He obviously researched the Knuckle Tribe furiously as part of his research into the Chaos Emeralds. He replicated the Master Emerald Shrine, the power of the Chaos Emeralds in tiny drives (Chaos Drives), and also he replicated Chaos.

Although some people disregard Chronicles, that game does add a little more depth and say that the Nocturnus, the RIVALS of the Knuckle Tribe, were in fact the "Fourth Great Civilization." If Sega accepts this as canon, then that's another connection right there in Sonic Battle.

[ilcane87]

For some reason, I've never found any kind of appeal in Metal Sonic, he is probably the one recurring character I care less about (maybe tied with Silver); considering I'm interested in Sonic games only Because of side characters, and I'm fond of the absolute majority of them, he's a very unusual case to me.

From my point of view, he's always been just another boss battle, very appropriate as the second to last boss (when the last one is Dr. Eggman), but just a not so memorable boss battle.

If they want to turn him into a somewhat interesting character, they should start from scratch and give him a big role in a new game with a more original personality.

Robots CAN be very interesting in a unique way if developed right (remember E-102 Gamma?), it would be nice to have a new vehicle for reflections on Artificial Intelligence, althought I could see E-123 Omega as a better candidate than Metal Sonic for that, after some of his development in Sonic06.

[Dejablue]

I've never read Sonic the Comic. But I like the idea of there being a whole army of Metal Sonics somewhere in space. Ready to fly to earth and wreck the place.

But then again I guess its better that there is only one. And I like that he isn't used very often. Waiting for his next appearance makes him all that more exciting.

But honestly my biggest dose of Metal came from the Sonic OVA. It's probably still my favorite incarnation of him.

[Rusty Spy]

Can't really say much about Metal other than the fact he's the Ensemble Darkhorse of the Sonic series, and for good reason, he has a lot of potential to be an active threat to Sonic, as well as being The Dragon to Eggman's forces(or at least SHOULD).

[Octarine]

What I think Eggman needs more than anything else is some kind of recurring sidekick or minion. Virtually every other interpretation of the character has had one: SatAM and Archie's Snively, AoStH's Scratch and Grounder, Fleetway's Grimer, Sonic X's Decoe and Bocoe... the closest thing Game!Eggman himself has had is SA-55 in Unleashed, and while I love the little guy, I'm a little doubtful as to whether he's going to stick around.

That's really the role that I think Metal Sonic needs to fulfill in order to stay relevant. He shouldn't be a secret weapon; he should be Eggman's right-hand robot. With that would come increased screen time, more opportunities to take part in comedy (something I think every character should do from time to time, even especially downers like Shadow) and an actual other character to interact with. Even if Metal kept up his silent schtick, seeing him and Eggman interact on a regular basis would surely help his personality.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Octarine

[Badnik Zero]

METAL SONIC

I also like the idea of Metal operating in the role of second, but only in a certain capacity. He shouldn't be doing too much of Eggman's work, because unlike some cartoon representations of the man, game Eggman gets pretty personal with his schemes. Stealing gems, kidnappings, piloting, Shadow's prison break...

Heroes was right to make Metal rebellious, because I feel certain qualities he shares with Sonic (not sure if this is canon here) would place him opposite Eggman's more authoritative command. The first Archie arc that Spaz penciled was about a shapeshifting AI that Eggman created, with properties not unlike Metal in Heroes. Because it was modeled after Sonic in order to beat him, it also had Sonic's high value on freedom and rebelled against its creator. Basic robot surpassing its master kind of thing, but it's a type that could work with Metal. I also like to see him as a Starscream type character, who thinks he'd make a better leader on top.

I think he'd also shine in a King of the Badniks role. People have said he'd make a good general, and I agree. A Badnik's point of view would be interesting. Heroes would've benefited from a scene or two showing how the Egg Pawns regard Metal. A high level creation should be frightening to a foot soldier like a Pawn.

[Dejablue]

But if he's turned into a more permanent sidekick he'd loose his edge over time. Even if that edge is just fan worship. Eventually wouldn't everybody be like "Lol its Metal Sonic but he's obviously no real threat to us"

Edited July 19, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

But if he's turned into a more permanent sidekick he'd loose his edge over time. Even if that edge is just fan worship.

That "edge" is just fanwank. I'd rather have, a thousand times over, a character that actually does things, even if he isn't a supreme god-level badass, than someone who has done basically nothing but is regarded as a supreme god-level badass anyway.

Eventually wouldn't everybody be like "Lol its Metal Sonic but he's obviously no real threat to us"

The obvious solution is to make him a threat. In a series like this the heroes are always going to win in the end, but that doesn't mean they can't stumble on the way there. Have Metal do things that genuinely set the heroes back; steal the macguffins they've collected, kidnap minor characters, fight major characters to a standstill, and so on. If he can win the short game reasonably often, he's still a credible threat, even if we know he'll always lose the long game.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

All that needs to be done with Metal is to make his game version like his OVA version... which was basicly just a more badass imagining of his Sonic CD version. Silent, implacible, with glowing red eyes and a thirst for murder.

I'm with Dabnikz and Octarine that Metal should be Eggman's permanent #2. Not so convinced on him actually being a general as such; I really don't think he'd play nice with the other badniks. Maybe have him in more of a Chaotix role, where he acts as Eggman's personal bodyguard more than anything.

I really don't like rebellious Metal, though. If he's gonna be a consistent #2, he needs to do what he's fucking told.

It'd be interesting to have a free-willed Metal who still chooses to serve Robotnik, but establishing that would likely require some sort of lengthy exposition, and I'd rather have him mute.

[Diogenes]

I really don't like rebellious Metal, though. If he's gonna be a consistent #2, he needs to do what he's fucking told.

Between this and being mute, I'd imagine this would just end up making him just a boring high-level grunt. I mean, at that point there's barely any reason to use Metal Sonic; you might as well insert some generic mindless robot in his place.

[Dejablue]

Characters don't have to talk to be interesting. If his presence is strong on screen he'll never need to. Like how NiGHTS used to be before they ruined it by giving it a voice. Or fuck. Tinkerbell. Or Link, or Crash Bandicoot or any other character ever that didn't need words and yet you still understood them.

And that isn't even close to true. There is a large difference between "generic strong badnik" and "Its fucking Metal-Sonic, byotch!" If people worship this character you might as well play up to that expectation. He's bad, he's mean, he doesn't talk. He just kicks your ass because that's what Eggman told him to do and you can't change his mind. Ever.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

Characters don't have to talk to be interesting.

Didn't say they did, but it can help.

And that isn't even close to true. There is a large difference between "generic strong badnik" and "Its fucking Metal-Sonic, byotch!" If people worship this character you might as well play up to that expectation. He's bad, he's mean, he doesn't talk. He just kicks your ass because that's what Eggman told him to do and you can't change his mind. Ever.

So if you do this, once everyone's done squealing over him, he really does become "oh hey Metal Sonic well he's no threat". If he's just there to fight, then he's just there to be beaten, and boss fights are not interesting characters. I mean, what does this interpretation of Metal Sonic even offer, beyond "OMG Metal Sonic!!! *fangirl squeal*"

[Dejablue]

That's why I don't think he should be made permanent number 2. I like it when he pops up once a blue moon. No matter who it is, if he's a bad guy he's going to loose. If Shadow had stayed evil he'd loose over and over to Sonic and just become a joke. But I'm growing tired of bad guys turning good.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

That's why I don't think he should be made permanent number 2. I like it when he pops up once a blue moon.

Okay, but he's still riding on nothing but fanboy fumes. What actual value is there in the character?

No matter who it is, if he's a bad guy he's going to loose. If Shadow had stayed evil he'd loose over and over to Sonic and just become a joke. But I'm growing tired of bad guys turning good.

But there are other ways of making a villain not turn lame besides rarely using him and making him turn good. It's not as if there's never been an interesting long-time villain in a long-running series, right?

[Dejablue]

The value is that he's a threat to Sonic. An oppressively frightening, durable, unusually competent mechanical match for Sonic.

We don't need to give Metal this 8 layer cake of a background. Geeze.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

The value is that he's a threat to Sonic. An oppressively frightening, durable, unusually competent mechanical match for Sonic.

A boss fight. Not a character.

We don't need to give Metal this 8 layer cake of a background. Geeze.

Oh cut this shit, I'm trying to expand the character beyond what you can infer from his name, not write a thousand page novel on him.

[Dejablue]

Oh shiz Dio is going Srs bznz. I guess I'll back down. But out of curiosity what exactly would you do to make Metal interesting.

[Diogenes]

Pretty much what I said before; make him a consistent subordinate to Eggman, but with an independent streak, and a legitimate threat to the heroes. His main internal conflict is between following orders as he's programmed, and following his own desires as his sense of self tells him to.