The Fallen Cast...

[Dejablue]

What you're saying, and what you wrote on the last page isn't that much different from what I had in mind. I said 'threat to Sonic and does what Eggman tells him to do'. You just said the same thing with more words.

But that still makes him nothing but a bunch of boss fights. Well a bunch of boss fights + more cut scenes. If he has an independent streak then at least let it be because he wants to be his own bad guy.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Dejablue

[Aquaslash]

A boss fight. Not a character.

Make it a ridiculously hard boss fight then. Pull a S3K and have min confrontations leading up to it. THat way, YOU feel like you just Punched out Chthulu when you beat him.

Oh, and I'd prefer him to stay loyal to Eggman. SOMETHING needs to anyway.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Aquaslash

[Diogenes]

What you're saying, and what you wrote on the last page isn't that much different from what I had in mind. I said 'threat to Sonic and does what Eggman tells him to do'. You just said the same thing with more words.

What I said has nuance and depth, and can turn Metal Sonic into an interesting character with a significant impact on the series. What you said sounds like a boss fight once or twice a decade.

But that still makes him nothing but a bunch of boss fights. Well a bunch of boss fights + more cut scenes.

...the difference between "a boss fight" and "a boss fight, and also cutscenes" is the difference between a crack in the sidewalk and the grand canyon when it comes to defining a character.

If he has an independent streak then at least let it be because he wants to be his own bad guy.

I'd rather Metal be struggling with his desires and programming rather than "I'm going to be evil because..."...I can't even think of a decent reason beyond being evil just because.

Make it a ridiculously hard boss fight then. Pull a S3K and have min confrontations leading up to it. THat way, YOU feel like you just Punched out Chthulu when you beat him.

Still just a boss fight.

Oh, and I'd prefer him to stay loyal to Eggman. SOMETHING needs to anyway.

It's not as if I'm suggesting he turn full traitor or run off on his own for months at a time. It's an independent streak, not full-on revolt.

[Aquaslash]

I don't understand this "just a boss fight" mentality you have. This whole series is "just a set of video games". Boss fights are a BIG part of such, and having one character consistently being a different one will make that character seem to be a force to be reckoned with. Even for those who may actually manage no damage runs would get crazy bragging rights.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Aquaslash

[Diogenes]

I don't understand this "just a boss fight" mentality you have.

Because this is a topic about characters, not gameplay. A good boss fight is just good gameplay; it doesn't make the character any better.

[Rusty Spy]

If I'm understanding Dio, make Metal follow Eggman, but carry out his orders in his own way, whether Eggman would like the methods or not. If Eggman were to say "Go out and ambush Sonic with this army of bots", Metal would leave the pawns and go confront Sonic on his own.

Frankly I'd like Metal as the Chaotic Evil to Eggman's Neutral Evil. While Eggman is rather predictable and even chivalrous at times, Metal is the wild card that constantly keeps the heroes on their toes, never knowing when he'll decide to go out and beat the stuffing out of the heroes in their sleep.

[Aquaslash]

A good boss fight is just good gameplay; it doesn't make the character any better.

I disagree, but w/e. I think I've derailed enough. XD

[Derg]

YOU feel like you just Punched out Chthulu when you beat him.

I understand what you're talking about here but, isn't fighting "chthulu" type characters also a criticism of the series?

Count me in on liking the idea of the metal sonic "chain", but, to avoid a "me too" situation, I'm not really impressed by this version of Metal Sonic.

I'm more impressed by(not really being too precise or caring in naming here) Silver Sonic(Sonic 2) and Mecha Sonic(Sonic and Knuckles). I haven't played the Rival's series, so I will just talk about my experience in other games, this version of Metal Sonic hasn't done much, in Sonic CD, he's basically a moving obstacle; in Heroes, he's a monster character that was dissapointing (the neo form was also dissapointing that we didn't get to see it go places...). Silver Sonic was intimidating because of the ringless/two bosses situation, and Mecha Sonic is a trope breaker, what with the one act/nostalgia bosses. From what I've read/seen in cutscenes, I'm not fond of Metal Sonic being Eggman's radio; I don't see the point of Metal Sonic being a another rival to Sonic if his role can basically be used by any other creation.

There's alot of potential that can come out of Metal Sonic, hopefully the writing/use of characterization will improve overall wilth Colors/Colours.

[Phos]

Since we've all said our thoughts on one "fake" hedgehog, let's move on to another "fake" hedgehog?

I was so busy talking about his role in Adventure 2 (Which, at the very least requires putting together some pretty disparate factoids and still has a few holes without details learned from later games) that I never got around to talking about Shadow.

Anyway, anyone whe has ever seen Red Letter Media's review of Star Wars Episode 1 (it's more than an hour long, but it's hilarious) probably recalls a particular method of evaluating characters, and I'm paraphrasing - Describe them without mentioning their appearance, occupation, or role in the movie (or in this case game). Due to Sonic Team's overall pretty bad writing, this is problematic for most of the cast at one time or another, but Shadow seems to be (one of) the only character for whom Sonic Team tried to use their role in the plot as characterization.

I'd also kind of expect him to be predisposed to nonviolent or nonlethal methods considering what motivated him in the first place.

There are a few benefits to being a serious character. Lots of times, comedy needs some form of "straight man" in order to work, some one who isn't acting wacky or something like that, but a lot of times they come off as being bland. An ostensibly very serious character can serve as a strait man without being bland. They can also be stuck into a

for the lulz.

Because this is a topic about characters, not gameplay. A good boss fight is just good gameplay; it doesn't make the character any better.

There's this one boss in Ninja Gaiden (NES) who insults your (dead) father and apparently makes Ryu angry. What's interesting is that the only way to beat this boss is to just run up to him and attack him as fast as possible and hope he goes down first, his attack is 100% unavoidable. I thought it was interesting as it struck me as Ryu's emotions were being shown via gameplay. I think Metal Sonic choosing to race Sonic rather than fight him tells more about his character than an entire page of expositing in the player's face.

Funny thing about Metal Sonic, in some illustrations from back in the day, he has a mouth.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Phos

[Aquaslash]

Funny thing about Metal Sonic, in some illustrations from back in the day, he has a mouth.

That's actually the reflection of his shoulder plate.

[Diogenes]

There's this one boss in Ninja Gaiden (NES) who insults your (dead) father and apparently makes Ryu angry. What's interesting is that the only way to beat this boss is to just run up to him and attack him as fast as possible and hope he goes down first, his attack is 100% unavoidable. I thought it was interesting as it struck me as Ryu's emotions were being shown via gameplay. I think Metal Sonic choosing to race Sonic rather than fight him tells more about his character than an entire page of expositing in the player's face.

Well, okay, it's not true to say nothing about a character can be demonstrated in a boss fight, and it's certainly not a bad thing when you can, it's not always the best way to go about it. I mean, we don't even know if was Metal's choice to race (it'd be kind of odd if it was, as Eggman's there to blast the loser, and that would make him seem subservient to Metal) or even if he was sentient (he could've been just a basic 'bot with Race.EXE, Capture_Amy.EXE, and Waggle_Finger.EXE files).

And it's not as if every cutscene has to dump tons of exposition on you, either; cutscenes can show character traits through actions in a way that's more controlled than actual gameplay (I'd imagine it's kind of hard to show more subtle and subdued aspects when the player's mindset is "boss fight? KILL KILL KILL okay next level please!").

Funny thing about Metal Sonic, in some illustrations from back in the day, he has a mouth.

That looks like a reflection of his torso to me...

Edit: I'm sure of it. The "shadow" around it is blue, and the "mouth" is the yellow of his jet intake stomach thing.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Diogenes

[Octarine]

That's actually the reflection of his shoulder plate.

The white thing on his cheek is, but there's a mouth in the centre of his face there as well. I think he looks better without it, though.

I actually far preferred Metal Sonic's boss fight to the fights with Silver Sonic and Mecha Sonic, even with Knuckles' last boss fight in S3&K taken into consideration. The race angle seems a bit weak looking back, but it really was one of the more unique boss fights in the classic games, never mind that it was actually built up to a bit by Metal Sonic's appearance in Palmtree Panic (sort of) and Collision Chaos. Still, a modern character can't rely one one really cool moment nearly two decades ago to remain relevant, and I concur that Metal really ought to, y'know, do something one of these days.

As awful as his appearance in Heroes was, there was one aspect of it that I sort of appreciated: Metal Sonic being totally batshit insane. Maybe being convinced that he's the "real" Sonic isn't the ideal direction for the character, but it certainly beats having no personality at all. I think that angle could be taken in some interesting directions if it were brought back; directions that a character like Shadow, while perhaps a better foil for Sonic, could never go. Metal might kidnap one of Sonic's friends and feebly attempt to convince them that he's better than the real thing, as an off-the-cuff example. Sonic could fight him on a mechanical replica of South Island that he's convinced himself is the genuine article. Anything. That'd actually work pretty well with the Metal-Sonic-as-Eggman's-#2 concept, with Eggman buying Metal's loyalty by building things for him to indulge his delusions.

[Rusty Spy]

Am I the only one who REALLY liked his Heroes design?! I mean, look at the badass cape!

Edited July 20, 2010 by Black Spy

[Diogenes]

Am I the only one who REALLY liked his Heroes design?! I mean, look at the badass cape!

It's an ass-cape. It's really hard to make an ass-cape look good. Metal can't quite do it.

Plus the whole thing looks like it's trying too hard to be badass; crazy lines, huge spikes...it looks unwieldy as fuck, too.

[Dejablue]

I really don't see what's wrong with a robot being evil simply because he's programed to. I mean in order for Metal to even struggle for free will his program will have to either be damaged or Eggman decided to give him free will. Why would Eggman give a robot free will intentionally? Common sense would dictate that that isn't a good idea. Especially when Sonic can make bad characters good by simply talking to them.

(well after beating their asses first)

Ok so I get what someone said about Metal being a Chaotic Evil next to Eggman's more Neutral Evil. He'll do what Eggman says but will adlib the script if the calculations see fit. He'll be a wild card of sorts. But goddamn it he has to stay loyal to Eggman. Which Is why I don't get the whole 'struggle' thing Dio is talking about. What is this struggle? Do you just want another Shadow?

Edited July 20, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

I really don't see what's wrong with a robot being evil simply because he's programed to.

It's dull. Every robot in Eggman's army is evil because it's been programmed to be evil. I'd like Metal to be a major character, and a major character should be more complex than that, even in this series.

I mean in order for Metal to even struggle for free will his program will have to either be damaged or Eggman decided to give him free will. Why would Eggman give a robot free will intentionally?

To make him better able to react to situations, especially with regards to dealing with creatures who do have sentience and free will (i.e., Sonic and the gang). It's not like it'd be anything new to the series; Gamma broke free with some prodding, Omega's off on his own judgment, and Metal already pulled a coup in Heroes.

Besides, since when has Eggman had common sense.

Which Is why I don't get the whole 'struggle' thing Dio is talking about. What is this struggle? Do you just want another Shadow?

'cause any character with any sort of depth is horrible, right guys? No, I don't want another "Shadow", I want a character with more than one dimension to his personality. I think almost any half decent character has some significant struggle relating to their personality, and sometimes one that's completely internal. Tails, for example, had to reconcile his hero worship of Sonic and his tendency to be just the sidekick, with his drive to grow up into a hero himself using his own strengths. Shadow's got a meandering series of struggles, but the big one tends to be whether he's going to fulfill his role as a weapon and be a destroyer (either as a villain or an antihero) or if he's going to follow Maria's wishes and bring hope to humanity. Sonic doesn't have any apparent internal struggle, but the overall story of Sonic fighting Eggman puts his love of freedom and justice against Eggman's desire for control taken by force. The obvious hook for Metal is that he's a copy of Sonic, but just having them fight isn't much more than generic "good guys vs bad guys". So, say Metal "inherits" some of Sonic's independent personality (maybe Eggman thinks he'll be able to predict Sonic's actions better if he thinks like him, or he's just giving him a longer leash so he can react better in general, which "coincidentally" mirrors Sonic's independence), and this is obviously at odds with being a loyal minion, so there's friction between what Metal wants and what he's programmed to obey. You can also get a bit of Metal trying to be more like Sonic (independent, that is) as he's trying to prove himself better than Sonic.

And, now, this doesn't have to turn every story into an overwrought abomination. They don't have to (and shouldn't) shove all that in our faces at every opportunity; they can be a bit more subtle, let the characters' actions speak and let the players draw the conclusions. Imagine, for example; Sonic and Metal are just about to fight, or have been and there's a brief lull. Suddenly, Metal gets a call from Eggman telling him to cut it out and get back to his base for whatever reason. Metal hesitates, glares at Sonic, and then jets off. It's not a huge thing, but it shows there's more going on under the surface of "good guy vs bad guy". Metal's screaming in his head, "I can kill him! I can kill him right now and end it but he won't let me!", and I find that infinitely more interesting than "BEEP. I am Metal Sonic. Must kill hedgehog. BEEP."

[Dejablue]

Dude I never said Character Development was bad. If I did I'd never post in this topic. But something I said might have gotten you a bit agitated or something. So I'm a bit critical of your opinions? Sorry for not agreeing with you straight out of the starting gate. <-Sarcasm But now after our back n forth I'll admit I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Metal's screaming in his head, "I can kill him! I can kill him right now and end it but he won't let me!", and I find that infinitely more interesting than "BEEP. I am Metal Sonic. Must kill hedgehog. BEEP."

The last part you wrote is basically what I meant about him being a wild card. He may go too far for Eggman's tastes but according to Metal's processor it makes more sense to not show mercy. So what exactly is Metal Sonic's Independence (Him trying to be more like or better than Sonic) going to lead him to? Overthrow Eggman? Or turn into a good guy? Either one of the two it's going to be inevitable. He'll no longer be loyal to Eggman.

This whole time I'm trying to figure out what you mean by Independence. That's all. I'm not saying he can't have character depth. I'm just asking to what end.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Dejablue

[Daimao]

This whole time I'm trying to figure out what you mean by Independence. That's all. I'm not saying he can't have character depth. I'm just asking to what end.

I think his independence trait should be that inside he feels he can kill Sonic, but the thing limiting him from doing that is Eggman himself. So I just think that in Heroes, instead of actually overthrowing Eggman, he is just doing what Eggman has programmed to do but he has taken matters into his own hands because he feels Eggman is the factor that is keeping him from killing Sonic.

Honestly, I think Metal Sonic could be a great character, that is, if the writers actually make him do something credible. Doesn't matter if he is under the control of Eggman or not, he just needs to do anything credible which will allow him to be seen as more of a threat. Heroes was a step in the right direction him, but he never went beyond that because he hasn't been used since then (and he doesn't do anything significant in Rivals either).

[Aquaslash]

Am I the only one who REALLY liked his Heroes design?! I mean, look at the badass cape!

Nope. Neo Metal Sonic is ten kinds of awesome

[Badnik Zero]

To Dejablue, this is why I named Starscream specifically. He doesn't have to be outright mutinous, but he can disobey orders and get away with it. For example, Eggman wants to keep a low profile, Metal goes crazy and blows it. Or Dio's example, Eggman wants to retreat, but Metal needs to finish the fight. Being disrespectful like SA-55, celebrating when his master is humiliated. Starscream is about ego, perfect for Metal because it's something Sonic has a lot of. I can, and I don't have to take orders from the fat man. What stops him from going all out? We can be spared the shoddy Heroes script if Eggman keeps him on a short leash.

So once again, Metal Sonic. Top Badnik, just short of traitorous, still obviously a whipped Badnik though. Wants to be Sonic because he's a Sonic robot.

And about this boss battle discussion, what's wrong with a role in levels like this? I mean Unleashed Sonic is like a type of racing game. It's his function.

Metal Sonic = Uhu from Sonic and the Secret Rings. Really, you could stick him in any Sonic Unleashed or Colors level and it'd be awesome.

[Remynaka]

Metal Sonic, man you need to DO something. I'm indifferent to him, mainly because I don't understand the hype behind him. Lets see, before heroes ... he raced sonic in a somewhat spinoff game on a spinoff system ( Add-on ) and that's it. That and I just find the whole robot rival thing abit boring. Mainly because he can only do two things, completely follow Eggman's will and design, or not follow it. I'll admit .. him thinking he's the "real" sonic is something that can be done, but just like anything else, he could only REALLY do this ONCE. And to be honest, you got characters like shadow who kindof steal his role ( if he had it in the first place remains to be seen ) as a rival. Or true rival, and rather just a boss fight.

I think giving him free will would be the BEST option, only cause then he can actually be a character instead of just "fan service" And I use that term VERY loosely. Free will would give him something other than what he has, too bad Heroes does it wrong. " I'm taking over the WORLD for no other reason but to do it before Eggman" isn't really a good example. So right now I dunno..... I'm indifferent and feel he's kindof pointless cause if I wanna see sonic fight someone who's got his speed and more, I look at Shadow. Metal sonic just needs to .. I don't know, DO something that isn't pointless. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Viviroking]

In my mind, Metal should be Eggman's right hand man bot, but I agree with all this talk about him being more of a wild card with his own will. Just so long as he's programmed to never, ever, ever pull a Gamma/Omega. He should be able to do whatever he wants, just so long as his intentions don't go against Eggman's. For example, Eggman orders Metal to capture Sonic, no matter what, and Metal ends up blowing up half the Egg-Factory in the process.

He also should be able to help Eggman when he isn't ordered to do so. Like if Eggman is about to be nearly killed by Sonic, yet again, he can just appear and intercept Sonic for the 2nd boss in a row. Except this one is 5x harder.

[LimeTH]

I always thought the perfect thing to do with Metal Sonic was to make him Eggman's primary assistant and to give the two a sort of "Wallace and Gromit" dynamic. Eggman is already a bumbling, comedic scientist, and Metal Sonic would be his silent, more intelligent sidekick who has to put up with him and keep him from killing himself. Metal Sonic seems the type who would make a good Silent Snarker, rolling his eyes and facepalming when Eggman throws one of his tantrums.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I always thought the perfect thing to do with Metal Sonic was to make him Eggman's primary assistant and to give the two a sort of "Wallace and Gromit" dynamic. Eggman is already a bumbling, comedic scientist, and Metal Sonic would be his silent, more intelligent sidekick who has to put up with him and keep him from killing himself. Metal Sonic seems the type who would make a good Silent Snarker, rolling his eyes and facepalming when Eggman throws one of his tantrums.

So you just want him to be a mute SA-55, basicly?

Urgh. I hated SA-55.

I could go with the suggestion that Metal be free willed, but still furiously obedient, only letting his opinions show in his hesitation in carrying out certain orders - namely orders to disengage against Sonic. Playing up the robot's psychopathic delusions that he is the real Sonic could also be a neat way to prevent him from falling into a blandly generic 'top mook' role.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So the general consensus is that Metal Sonic should be Eggman's right-hand robot, obeying his creator however reluctantly he may be on the decision...along with other details mentioned. That and he needs to actually DO something in the series than he's been doing nowadays.

Doesn't seem like very much on the metal doppelganger.

Still, I think we should move on a bit here. So I'd like to bring up the fabled twin-tailed mechanic, Tails.

Tails' character is one that I look at with the most potential out of all the characters (even Sonic), but we're not going to sugarcoat the fact that his character has been as jumpy as any other character you can think of. Maybe not fully, but he shouldn't be an exception in regards to the whole "shitty character" lables.

That's not to say that I think he (or any character) is a shitty character, but that he has some things that need some fixing. But let's get on to the good stuff shall we?

First things first is that Tails is quite independent for a sidekick. Sure, lots of sidekicks can go off and do their own thing; Robin is no exception in terms of being Batman's sidekick. For a kid of 8 years of age, he can do quite well on his own. Add on to the fact that he is a pilot and an engineering genius and you have a child prodigy on your hands. It's that child prodigy trait he has is where I think he is probably the most versatile character in the entire series. You can almost throw him into any occupation, whether it conflicts with the character or not, and it can work with him so long as it flows with the other traits that he has, namely his intellect and mechanical skills. Hell, the kid could become a chief scientist, general, strategist, or agent of GUN even for his age and it wouldn't be too much of a hassel on him...although some of you might say otherwise judging from our debate with Amy being in similar positions. But hey, it's fun to imagine, and it's fun to brainstorm.

Whether or not GUN is out of the question in terms of where he would be, just about anything technology based would work well for him. And even when we're not dealing with technology on his character, he's shown well enough that he can go out into the chaotic world and still be a force to be reckoned with at his nubile age. The little guy was able to save an entire city from a nuclear weapon for crying out loud; okay sure, that was still technology based, but understand that this is a little kid who usually taged-along with an older character before he started paving his own path...that, and it's a fucking NUKE! What kind of kid get's that kind bravery to stop a WMD by himself? Only Tails...

Despite being the genius that he is, he doesn't have the resources comparabile to our main egg...er, human in terms of engineering feats (especially when you add on that very same human building an amusement park out of full blown planets). But still, this is Tails. The little kit is as adaptable as you can make him...not suprising considering that he is a fox.

Honestly, I don't think his independence does any toll on his overall character. I think it enhances him more where he doesn't always have to tagalong with Sonic all the time. Not to say that he shouldn't be with Sonic, but that he's opened up a lot of other paths for him to walk on more than even our principle hero Sonic himself.

Of course, there are flaws like with any other character. Tails' independence isn't exactly a problem (for me atleast), but it would help if we could get a good scene of what he's up to even when he's doing his own thing. For example, Sonic Unleashed. In no way could Tails play the same role Chip did in that game, but still it would've been interesting to see what the little kit was up to. I don't think I would need to mention his characterization in Heroes or Sonic 06 in how terrible he was played out in those plots. Ironically, he did somewhat better in ShTH to an extent...although it was as watered down as any other character in that game.

Aside from that, I can't list very many flaws on him myself. I have to be straight and say that he isn't handled with the kind of care Rouge the Bat has (although it is arguable whether or not you would even call that careful handling due to how little she's played out). But needless to say, Tails has quite a good stand on where he can go.

But enough about what I think. What do YOU guys think?