The Fallen Cast...

[Phos]

The problem is that I find Chip to be about as interesting and nuanced as Garfield, and that Chip was essentially written assuming that the audience already liked him. The script seems to think that the audience is waiting with bated breath for his introduction and subsequent stream of food jokes (Because he likes to eat, if you didn't catch that). He is essentially "The Wesly", a character who is given a great focus and importance in spite of not being a very strong character.

Your bitching over Chip baffles me. He isn't coming back. It was just one game. Get over it.

I was mostly going off on a tangent, partly to explain why I think a scrip focusing so much on Chip was ill advised, and partly just because.

But I really must be more considerate about this sort of thing.

You can't say using real life relationships as examples doesn't work to explain some of their habits when you yourself are holding the two to the realistic obligation of seeing each other as often as you feel comfortable with. "Real friends see each other more often then you guys see each other, so therefore you guys aren't friends," is basically your argument and based on some degree of realism.

I didn't say they were useless examples, I just said that they weren't the best examples. Fictional characters have to have a certain amount of realism about them. I don't mean to imply that I think they should be falling all over one another, but it still seems to me as though the way their relationship is portrayed doesn't seem to be anything but professional in many cases. Imagining Unleashed in a vacuum, it wouldn't be unbelivable to mistake Tails for an acquaintance with a similar agenda.

Even the members here who have a problem with the way Sonic and Tails' friendship is displayed today are not arguing that the friendship is suddenly nonexistent, they're arguing that it isn't shown enough for their personal liking, which is a far more subjective issue which I've countered by noting that the relationship was never shown in such an overtly Disney-ish and brotherly way to begin with.

In a work of fiction, especially one with as loose a continuity as Sonic's, there isn't much difference between those two things, but I didn't mean to imply that they aren't friends, just that a lot of the games do a really bad job of showing it.

Tails no longer tagging along with Sonic and Tails not doing much pretty much go hand in hand. None of the series' bad guys seem to want to pick on him, so he's only as involved with the plot as he chooses to be, in a sense. Even during his big character moment in Adventure, Eggman was targeting the city, not Tails.

I also think you're not completely aware of what a Wesley is. It is an extreme case of what you believe Chip is, a character whose author favoritism leads to that particular character becoming a paragon of perfection wherein other characters rely solely on him and rave about their good qualities. Chip is too immature, too clumsy, too reliant on Sonic and too much of an annoyance to Sonic to remotely fit into this trope.

Westly wasn't that popular with anyone but Geordy and Data. But really, not that big a deal at this point.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

It is common knowledge that Sonic and Tails are best buds, it HAS been shown, the fact that Tails is by Sonic's side the majority of his adventures should be quite evident of that, and it'd be weirder and less believable for Shadow to NOT still be devoted to Maria, given that he's strongly cared for her since SA2, and overall, there's no reason to suggest the status quo has changed between these things.

You seem to be using a rather strange defiition of "common knowledge" here.

The "I still believe it despite several years' conspicuous absence of anything that would even imply it to be true" definition.

This is not the kind of "truth" that a commercial franchise can sustain. With new customers coming all the time, un-versed in the minutae of the Sonic 2 8-bit Good Ending sequence, if a relationship isn't metioned then it is at best serving as utterly irrelevant to the character's intended portrayal, and at worst being quietly retconned.

THIS is why you need to stab gamers in the face with flashing neon signs to entrench any character interaction you intend them to take seriously: 'cos many players won't have seen, or remembered, it from before.

Hence the fact that Sonic and Tails aren't shown as being close as two peas in a pod is because, in the game designer's heads, they AREN'T close as two peas in a pod. If they were, and if this friendship was in any way important to their modern canonical characterisation, this would be made abundantly clear at all possible junctures in a game; so that even the ADHD-addled nine-year-olds - who are allegedly Sonic's best customers - wouldn't forget it in their ritalin-fogged goldfish-memories.

Quod erat demonstrandum

Edited July 25, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[XavierRussell]

In Sonic Adv3 their Team name was "Unbreakable bond", if that counts for anything.

[Rusty Spy]

The "I still believe it despite several years' conspicuous absence of anything that would even imply it to be true" definition.

Way to completely overreact, bro. Several years? Conspicuous? *sigh* Unfortunately I'm not the raving fanboy that can remember every line of dialogue in a game so I can't exactly pinpoint the times where It is explicitly mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the fact that Tails is seen with Sonic more times than any other character in general would've served as some kind of hint that maybe he's closer to Sonic than, say, Shadow.

This is not the kind of "truth" that a commercial franchise can sustain. With new customers coming all the time, un-versed in the minutae of the Sonic 2 8-bit Good Ending sequence, if a relationship isn't metioned then it is at best serving as utterly irrelevant to the character's intended portrayal, and at worst being quietly retconned.

THIS is why you need to stab gamers in the face with flashing neon signs to entrench any character interaction you intend them to take seriously: 'cos many players won't have seen, or remembered, it from before.

Hence the fact that Sonic and Tails aren't shown as being close as two peas in a pod is because, in the game designer's heads, they AREN'T close as two peas in a pod. If they were, and if this friendship was in any way important to their modern canonical characterisation, this would be made abundantly clear at all possible junctures in a game; so that even the ADHD-addled nine-year-olds - who are allegedly Sonic's best customers - wouldn't forget it in their ritalin-fogged goldfish-memories.

Quod erat demonstrandum

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SXZ7WPEGU2g

See this. This is how NOT to do exposition; i.e, shoving it in the audiences faces and being as forced as possible to ensure that everyone who's watching knows.

There are not enough excuses in the world to have that kind of forced exposition and if you think so than I'm gonna have to ask you to step outside for a moment.

As Yahtzee once said:

"This is NOT good story-telling. Your supposed to weave exposition into the narrative not hand the audience a fucking glossary when they walk into the theater."

If the plot does not demand we need to be aware of Sonic and Tails' friendship than it should NOT be spoon fed to us at every possible moment, because you'd be veering away from the overall plot to explain that Sonic and Tails' are BF4L with less subtlety than Return to Little Planet.

The reason because is Tails has had little involvement in the plot to begin with, giving him less time to actually BE portrayed. I'd like you to do something for me, I want you to take any cutscene between Sonic Heroes and Unleashed and give me one instance where Sonic and Tails' friendship can be mentioned without being totally irrelevant to the game's story and ISN'T shoved in our faces.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Black Spy

[Core]

If the plot does not demand we need to be aware of Sonic and Tails' friendship than it should NOT be spoon fed to us at every possible moment, because you'd be veering away from the overall plot to explain that Sonic and Tails' are BF4L with less subtlety than Return to Little Planet.

I think you're overreacting. Nobody's saying that Sonic and Tails' friendship should be spoonfed to us, just that it would be nice if they just at least acted like best friends once in a while.

[Rusty Spy]

I think you're overreacting. Nobody's saying that Sonic and Tails' friendship should be spoonfed to us, just that it would be nice if they just at least acted like best friends once in a while.

THIS is why you need to stab gamers in the face with flashing neon signs to entrench any character interaction you intend them to take seriously

[...]

If they were, and if this friendship was in any way important to their modern canonical characterisation, this would be made abundantly clear at all possible junctures in a game

To me, says: "Shove it in the audiences faces at every possible moment ad nauseum, which is horrible writing.

just that it would be nice if they just at least acted like best friends once in a while.

And that's where it becomes subjective; who are we to say how best friends are supposed to act?

[Core]

Fair enough.

And yes, in real life, how best friend should act is subjective and up to them. But in fiction mostly aimed at children, if Sonic and Tails are best friend then it should be somewhat apparent. (Though it is sometimes, like at the end of Sonic Unleashed, but it doesn't happen enough in my opinion).

[Frozen Nitrogen]

The reason because is Tails has had little involvement in the plot to begin with, giving him less time to actually BE portrayed. I'd like you to do something for me, I want you to take any cutscene between Sonic Heroes and Unleashed and give me one instance where Sonic and Tails' friendship can be mentioned without being totally irrelevant to the game's story and ISN'T shoved in our faces.

"Hi there, I'm Characterisation. You may have heared of me. I establish the identities and interrelations between the agents in a story so as to enable viewers to see characters as something more than personality-less mannequins lurching their way through a plot.

I am rarely thought of as being irrelevant to a story, be it videogame or novel, even though I may not relate directly to the cast acquiring MAgic Green Rocks or using them to defeat the Evil Villain!"

[Rusty Spy]

"Hi there, I'm Characterisation. You may have heared of me. I establish the identities and interrelations between the agents in a story so as to enable viewers to see characters as something more than personality-less mannequins lurching their way through a plot.

I am rarely thought of as being irrelevant to a story, be it videogame or novel, even though I may not relate directly to the cast acquiring MAgic Green Rocks or using them to defeat the Evil Villain!"

Well hello there Characterisation. I'm Character Focus. I make sure only the characters crucial to the plot are given the spotlight so the story isn't bogged down by loads and loads of characters.

I am very important to a series that has a lot of characters, be it videogame or novel, as to better give otherwise lesser characters a chance to shine and not be overshadowed by the Plucky Comic Relief or the main characters Best Friend.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Black Spy

[Nepenthe]

I didn't say they were useless examples, I just said that they weren't the best examples. Fictional characters have to have a certain amount of realism about them. I don't mean to imply that I think they should be falling all over one another, but it still seems to me as though the way their relationship is portrayed doesn't seem to be anything but professional in many cases. Imagining Unleashed in a vacuum, it wouldn't be unbelivable to mistake Tails for an acquaintance with a similar agenda.

As I keep reiterating, the relationship's always been that downplayed in the games, (with the exception of SA1), which makes me wonder why this is even a problem, why nowadays they're professional instead of the same friends they've been portrayed as since day one.

As for Unleashed, you keep speaking of it as if it is in a vacuum. Well, it isn't; It's a game 16 years after their friendship was established, a game in an era where there should naturally be leeway to allow Sonic to interact with other characters and even allow Tails some time in the background without the audience wondering, "Where did Tails go? I thought he and Sonic were friends." Even as his closest comrade, the fox doesn't need to be there all the time, much less a major character just so seasoned Sonic fans can have their reassurances.

In a work of fiction, especially one with as loose a continuity as Sonic's, there isn't much difference between those two things, but I didn't mean to imply that they aren't friends, just that a lot of the games do a really bad job of showing it.

Tails no longer tagging along with Sonic and Tails not doing much pretty much go hand in hand. None of the series' bad guys seem to want to pick on him, so he's only as involved with the plot as he chooses to be, in a sense. Even during his big character moment in Adventure, Eggman was targeting the city, not Tails.

There is a huge difference though, the difference being in the former case the audience is unaware of the friendship's existence, and in the latter a few members of the audience want a friendship they know exists to have more screen time than might actually be necessary. It goes from being more so an objective problem with the storytelling to a subjective problem with the overall narrative not focusing enough on an aspect you personally want it to, and it's a sentiment that is hardly any different from character and shipper fanatics' pleas at the root.

Also, Tails still tags along. Tails is almost always in every game Sonic is in, and he's close by or always helping him out with something important. No other character gets the privileges and responsibilities that Tails does, even in a game when he's a minor character.

As for Adventure, Eggman's plan to target the city led to a one-on-one bout between the two. Tails was the only one there who posed a threat, and Eggman knew this, hence why he struck up the match and threatened to make mincemeat out of him in the first place. What was a short-term attack to further his long-term goals became a little more personal than you give it credit for. And in Sonic Adventure 2, Eggman and Tails' grudge match returned on Prison Island and came to a head after Sonic was presumed killed.

So it's not as if Tails has never been targeted, not that I'm sure what this has to do with his friendship; Your friends can have conflicts that involve them more than they do you. Overall, if you're just really intent on the writers now having to be charged with showing their friendship off more, you could do it without having to change how much Eggman or any other threat focuses on Tails.

EDIT: And finally, I wish the few members around here who neg-repped people they merely disagreed with in debates such as these at least had the nads to give those people a proper rebuttal instead. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, illiterate, or assholish enough to warrant that, am I? If you have a problem with my views, then tell me instead of doing a fly-by neg rep; It's a little less cowardly on your part.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Dejablue]

Lol Frozen Nitrogen wants this

Sonic : HEY TAILS, MY BEST BUDDY!

Tails : HEY SONIC, MY BESTEST BEST BUDDY!

Ok now that that's been established AGAIN because our audience are morons...ADVENTURE TIME!

EDIT: oh and what is Return to Little Planet? Some kind of fan comic?

Edited July 26, 2010 by Dejablue

[Rusty Spy]

Lol Frozen Nitrogen wants this

Sonic : HEY TAILS, MY BEST BUDDY!

Tails : HEY SONIC, MY BESTEST BEST BUDDY!

Ok now that that's been established AGAIN because our audience are morons...ADVENTURE TIME!

Thank You

EDIT: oh and what is Return to Little Planet? Some kind of fan comic?

A rather poorly made fan MOVIE that has poor plot, pacing, and characterization. It's really only popular because "OH LOOK SAWNIK LIV AKSHUN MOOVY OMG AWSHUMMMM!!!"

[Badnik Zero]

Okay, bad writing is not the same as good writing, even when you're using it to win an argument. They don't even have to use the word friend in order to show us their relationship. It has been a few games since we saw them chilling like they used to, on a beach or whatever. Just use one of those scenes.

I don't think it's a big issue since Tails' role is extremely defined as Sonic's friend. So much so that this wouldn't have been brought up if it weren't for Chip.

[Dejablue]

As far as I can remember Sonic and Tails never chilled in the games. Ever.

Even in freaking SA1 . Sonic and Tails were doing their own damn thing. They weren't together until Tails crashed his plane. Come to think of it their buddy status has never been at the forefront of anything. Maybe I can't remember specific lines of dialog but I never remember a time where Sonic or Tails has regarded the other as a 'best friend' For me the best bud status bloomed straight out of the cartoons and OVA (the OVA being the only time I remember them chilling at a beach)

I never read the game manuals. (In the Genesis era I never had them. All my games were second hand) But even then. There are moments in the game where its like "Okay so Sonic and Tails must be friends. They seem to like each other at least."

Edited July 26, 2010 by Dejablue

[Badnik Zero]

I posted both the 8-bit and regular Sonic 2 endings already. They seem pretty concerned about each other. But you're right, they were at the beach in the OVA and promo materials. We should see that in the games though. Why shouldn't Sonic and Tails have a Chip moment? I think the Sonic 2 endings come close.

I mean they should treat each other like friends again. Tails is extremely familiar with Sonic in the Adventure games. He wants to show off his Chaos Emerald, complains about being ignored like he's known Sonic a while, wonders how he can fight without him, follows him in SA1, and fights to avenge his almost-death.

[Phos]

For me, one of the best moments between Sonic and tails is the Marble Garden Zone boss, especially is you're playing as Sonic alone, because Tails comes quite literally out of nowhere and turns it into a fair fight. It's especially cool how they enter the frame, the whole level just fell apart, and you have no idea what's going to happen next, and then you see Tails fly up from the bottom and he's carrying Sonic. Even going into the fight with Sonic & Tails, it's still cool how they work so well in tandem.

Then in the OVA, there's all sorts of ways they really play off one another, from them both getting mad at one another to Tails impersonating Sonic's mannerisms when they encounter Metal Robotnik.

As I keep reiterating, the relationship's always been that downplayed in the games, (with the exception of SA1), which makes me wonder why this is even a problem, why nowadays they're professional instead of the same friends they've been portrayed as since day one.

Keep in mind, they had practically just met in Sonic 2, but Sonic liked the little guy and they eventually became bros. But more to the point, the type of storytelling that the classic games used wasn't exactly conducive to character building moments, it wasn't an easy thing to do.

Still though, I'm not really implying that the depiction their relationship is any more screwed up than any other part of the narrative.

As for Adventure, Eggman's plan to target the city led to a one-on-one bout between the two. Tails was the only one there who posed a threat, and Eggman knew this, hence why he struck up the match and threatened to make mincemeat out of him in the first place. What was a short-term attack to further his long-term goals became a little more personal than you give it credit for. And in Sonic Adventure 2, Eggman and Tails' grudge match returned on Prison Island and came to a head after Sonic was presumed killed.

The thing is, Eggman would have launched that missile at the city whether Tails was there or not, Tails made himself a direct opponent to Eggman by trying to stop him.

[Rusty Spy]

Why shouldn't Sonic and Tails have a Chip moment?

[Octarine]

When I first brought that scene up, I was referring more to the tone of the scene than* its content. I'm well aware that there's never been a reason for Sonic and Tails to have a conversation exactly like that, and it'd feel very out of place if a scene like that was just inserted into any old game. Tails shouldn't have to be a god in order to have a quiet moment with Sonic where they reaffirm their friendship, though. That's all I was asking for.

If you'd like a more toned-down example, how about the scene where Amy doesn't recognize Sonic in his Werehog form and he slouches away, obviously upset? That was fairly subtle, and something similar (within reason, to avoid redundancy) could've easily been done with Tails as well... but it wasn't. Making it clear that they're friends doesn't need to be obtrusive, but it isn't really happening either way.

*EDIT: Than its content. Than. Not and. I'm sort of an idiot.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Octarine

[Nepenthe]

Agreed; Tails doesn't need to be a god for a moment like that to occur. But I go back to my argument about how friendships settle. As far as I know, friends don't normally have quiet moments where they directly reaffirm their friendship. It's a relationship that doesn't need it as it relies on active forms of dedication like visiting, going places with, and helping each other, which is what Sonic and Tails probably already do. A deep moment is usually reserved if something traumatic happens like a fight, the interference of other people, a change in one friend's routine or behavior, or long-term leave, because it's only then that the reaffirmation is actually needed.

So despite the fact that Chip had to leave Sonic because he's a god, that reason is irrelevant to the two. The only thing that changes their friendship is that Chip was going away. He was always a god when they were having fun, and if he could stay with Sonic forever, being a god wouldn't matter because it has no impact on how they treat each other. Ultimately, all that scene does is make the characters and audience aware that their time is limited, hence why it had to happen and why it'd be out of place under the normal circumstances of Sonic and Tails' relationship. It's not because Chip is a god; It's because he doesn't have the privilege Tails has of being able to physically interact with Sonic all the time.

Ergo, I think if we were going to have such a moment play out between both Sonic and Tails simultaneously, the relationship would have to be made a particular focus of the game's narrative and something would have to happen to it throughout, because there's really no good reason for it to happen otherwise.

And finally, that scene with the Werehog and Amy you've brought up seems tenuous; Amy's obliviousness seems to be a well-written way to display how much Sonic loathes the form's appearance and by extension everything it stands for. Remember, the direct catalyst for Sonic's mood change is Chip laying it on way too thick that Sonic is ugly. Afterwards, he tries to rectify it by saying that his looks don't matter (along with offering chocolate). But Sonic isn't hearing it, not there and not for nearly the rest of the story until Chip regains his memories and tells Sonic again that very little changes about him when he becomes the Werehog. So while I think you can take some implications away from that scene about the state of Sonic and Amy's relationship, I don't think it was primarily there for that reason; After all, it's not as if Amy does anything else worthwhile in Unleashed. xP

[Dejablue]

Maybe we need to create our own scenarios to see how people want Sonic and Tails' friendship to be seen in the games.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Maybe we need to create our own scenarios to see how people want Sonic and Tails' friendship to be seen in the games.

I'd like to welcome you to the exciting, sexy, rewarding * world of fanfiction!

Start here today!1!1!1!!2!

* Not a guarantee, expereinces may vary significantly from that implied, statistical chance of success 0.001%, offer not valid in Rhode Island or Texas, prolonged exposure to fanfiction may cause unexpected side effects including, but not limited to: schizophrenia, explosive verbosity, logghorea, paranoia, irritability, and death.

[LimeTH]

Maybe we need to create our own scenarios to see how people want Sonic and Tails' friendship to be seen in the games.

Them hanging out before the story starts would be good. None of that "LAWNG TIME NO SEE!" crap.

Y'know, correct me if I'm wrong, but Sonic Unleashed had little shorts where Sonic and Chip goof around in the different countries, right? With Sonic Colors taking place in different amusement parks, and assuming Tails is Sonic's partner and not someone he has to save, there could be shorts of Sonic and Tails goofing around in the parks. That'd be perfect and display some genuine friendship moments.

Edited July 26, 2010 by LimeTH

[Dejablue]

What I liked about Adventure was that it didn't really start with the characters IN the adventure. They were all kinda doing their own thing. So I guess Sonic and Tails can be hanging out at...where ever Sonic and Tails would hang out. And then trouble comes out to greet them. Or they find the trouble. either or.

[XavierRussell]

This is from the Sonic Wiki, in the section about Sonic's relationships:

"Tails is Sonic's best friend and sidekick. The two have been with each other since Sonic 2. They both have been been friends for a really long time, they share a brotherly relationship. Sonic and Tails first met in Westside Island, when Tails was being teased by the other children he found Sonic running at a high speed, Tails was impressed by this and thought he was "cool" and went after him. Tails found his biplane and got so fond of it and slept under it, Sonic found Tails and they both had a short meeting. When Sonic went, Tails went after him until Sonic stopped, Sonic was impressed by how he could keep up and the two became close friends.

After their meeting, Sonic and Tails were always there to help each other, their friendship grew and grew until they had a more brotherly relationship. It is often that Tails invents machines for Sonic in his help and also made him three Extreme Gears. In Sonic Advance 3, they are known as the "Unbreakable Bond" when they team up. In Sonic Rivals 2 it is shown that Sonic trains Tails to learn how to run and fight in their free time. Whenever Sonic has an adventure to explore, he always comes to Tails and asks him to come along and Tails is always ready to help.

Sonis also seems to care Tails alot, like in the opening of Sonic Riders, when Tails got hurt by Storm during a race, although Sonic was leading first place in the race, he went all the way back to help Tails and cheered him up by giving him a thumbs-up. Tails was also very persistent by making Sonic's Extreme Gear the best Extreme Gear in the world, when Wave had insulted Sonic's Blue Star.

Tails also used to depend on Sonic alot, but later realized that he can't depend on him forever, as displayed in Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood when he says: "I guess without you around I kinda had to grow up a little." Sonic is also an idol and role-model to Tails and Tails just wants to be as heroic as he is.

In Sonic Unleashed their bond seems to be closer, like when Sonic was in the form of a Werehog, Tails was the only one in the whole game to recognize him.

I agree, I never really get a vibe that they aren't good friends.

[Badnik Zero]

So yeah. Maybe it's time to move on to the next character?