The Fallen Cast...

[Pikachu in a Sombrero]

Well, in '06, Eggman seems to carry much of that. He has that feeling of being a threat and he seems truly evil.

Of course, this is countered by his cringe-worthy design, mediocre dialogue, and his unnecessary involvement in the Last Episode.

In terms of games, I most liked Eggman in Sonic Adventure 2. He has a great villainous persona in that game, and in that game he feels the most like a threat to Sonic and his friends. HE'S THREATENING TO SHOOT AMY WITH A GUN, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE! It's also the only game where his teaming up with them in the Last Story doesn't seem so out of place.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

As far as Amy characterisation goes I don't really think there's any more of my stall to set out. I've no major problems with anything about her at present; they could tone down her stalkerish-ness a bit by having her occasionally do something - ANYTHING - other than track Sonic across the planet (even briefly serving as Cream's big sister in Shadow and Battle was a turn for the better) once in a while.

I'd maintain that joining the army because she feels the need to volountarily have a bit of fascist discipline jackbooted into her is something completly out of character and why would you even consider it.

It'd be precisely as in-character as Cream joining a biker gang. WAT.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[Rusty Spy]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

There are not enough pictures and gifs in the world to accurately describe my utter disbelief at the massive amounts of irony being displayed here.

One of the writers must be watching this board.

[Nerfuffle]

To be fair, I wouldn't say this a new concept. 8P

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

What in the blue fuck?

I don't know what suprises me more, the fact that you remember your exact words on that or the idea actually happening.

I guess Amy joining the Army isn't out of the question anymore then.

Edited September 20, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And here comes a bump in the topic.

Okay, so recent character discussions has got me back into the fray on other characters and I don't want to make another topic that I've already made. This time, rather than talk about one particular character, we're going to go on to multiple character an a more this vs. that kind of set up.

So, what I want to get into is the discussion of Shadow vs. Knuckles & Amy. It shouldn't be any surprise to know the pedistals these three characters are put upon in comparison to the rest of the cast. But every once in a while there seems to be a butting of heads over who should be put over who; there are those who put Shadow over the rest of the cast and even the principle hero Sonic himself, but it is also more common (perhaps more so here anyway) to see Knuckles and Amy put over Shadow.

• We know Shadow is a dark character, most commonly associated in plots that involve a major tragedy that is about to or has already happened. But while that may be the case, he has appeared in a few not-so-dark games as well, such as Sonic Battle and Heroes(...would Chronicles fit the list as well?). Although he's listed as an Anti-heroe, lately he's been working more as heroic character than the latter archetype.
  
  
• There's Knuckles. Classic character, not as dark as Shadow, but arguably not as flexible either. He's most known for protecting the Master Emerald (a fact I will forever beat down your throat until further notice ), but lately seems to be disregarding that in favor of helping Sonic and Tails stop Eggman and his schemes. Some installments end up turning this problem into the elephant in the room, while some people are willing to let that slide since he's helping out the heroes.
  
  
• And then there's Amy. Classic character, arguably the more flexible of the two. Most well known for tailing Sonic at just about every place he ends up no matter what the setting, and also for mistaking other hedgehog look-a-likes for said blue Hedgehog due to poor eyesight.
  Used to be a Damsel in Distress in the past, but thanks to her trusty Mjolnir Piko-piko Hammer, she seems to be capable of defending herself and hasn't been captured as often. Even with flexiblity and Classic status, it's not uncommon to hear how she shouldn't be in the games simply for being...well "Amy."
  

What exactly would necessate putting either character over the other in the first place, at least regarding the three characters we're discussing? There's always a single reason reason to either bring in or keep out certain characters, with those wanting Shadow kept out for being too dark a character to be in certain games and bringing in characters like Knuckles and Amy (well Knuckles at least) to be around simply to help stop Eggman, but while you can mention one single reason you want to bring in/keep out a certain character there are several reasons someone will bring up to do the inverse or to at least balance the pedistals to reasonable levels (i.e. zero being my prefered threshold).

We all should know the story why this is the case. But my question is, do we really need to hold by that in cases where Shadow, Amy, or Knuckles is brought up? Shadow may be a dark character, and Knuckles may have the M.E. as part of his character in addition with him being a Classic character alongside Amy, but where do we strike a balance and do our best not play (or make it look like we're playing) favorites?

Edited October 8, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nerfuffle]

From a game play point of view, I think Knuckles would be the better character to include because his game play is more diverse than the other two without adding useless props.

As for story treatment, I just don’t know who would be a better choice for the silver screen. As they are now, it’s difficult for me to see any of these characters sandwiched in without it seeming like a detour from the plot. Part of this is because they don’t seem to have a life outside of their personal goals, goals that are never looked into.

Knuckles-We know he wants to protect a giant green rock from various evil forces, but why exactly is this accident-prone gem and his dead culture so important to him?

Amy- She wants to bang marry Sonic. Well…there was some mention of tarot cards some where and she’s a female so why not?

Shadow- He joined the army! I guess he had nothing better to do on Fridays.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

From a game play point of view, I think Knuckles would be the better character to include because his game play is more diverse than the other two without adding useless props.

Well sorry to say this, but this topic is completely neglecting gameplay, so let's stick to story treatments.

As for story treatment, I just don’t know who would be a better choice for the silver screen. As they are now, it’s difficult for me to see any of these characters sandwiched in without it seeming like a detour from the plot. Part of this is because they don’t seem to have a life outside of their personal goals, goals that are never looked into.

That doesn't seem to stop others who tend to prioritize one over the other instead of leveling the playing field.

I would imply favoritism myself. I'm not saying that having favorites is a bad thing (I have some myself after all), but it shouldn't something we should feel inclined to justify any character over the other. And this could be subliminal, blunt, or completely unintentional, although I wouldn't fault them too badly if it was unintentional.

The way I see it, it's much better to use characters who are more flexible because of their occupations (or lack thereof). For example, I say that Amy is the more flexible of the two for that reason, she lacks an occupation which would confine her to a specific place.

Edited October 9, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Knuckles-We know he wants to protect a giant green rock from various evil forces, but why exactly is this accident-prone gem and his dead culture so important to him?

[Nerfuffle]

That doesn't seem to stop others who tend to prioritize one over the other instead of leveling the playing field.

I would imply favoritism myself. I'm not saying that having favorites is a bad thing (I have some myself after all), but it shouldn't something we should feel inclined to justify any character over the other. And this could be subliminal, blunt, or completely unintentional, although I wouldn't fault them too badly if it was unintentional.

The way I see it, it's much better to use characters who are more flexible because of their occupations (or lack thereof). For example, I say that Amy is the more flexible of the two for that reason, she lacks an occupation which would confine her to a specific place.

[Rusty Spy]

This can be deduced, but it doesn't say a lot about him. Does he guard it out of Respect? Honor? Because he trusts his elders? Because there is nowhere else for him to go? Because he's stubborn? To keep history from repeating its self? Juicy topics that are never explored, at least not in the games.

[Nerfuffle]

I think his intro in SA1 made it a 'I don't know why; it's my fate' deal. But I think the fact that we don't exactly know 'why' is what makes this duty more enigmatic, and adds to that lonely atmosphere surrounding it, and that feeling that his actions are driven purely by natural instinct rather than a definite cause.

[Nepenthe]

Because Knuckles concluded that it was fine that he didn't have all the answers at the end of his campaign anyways, rendering the potential of such follow-ups irrelevant.

[Nerfuffle]

Because Knuckles concluded that it was fine that he didn't have all the answers at the end of his campaign anyways, rendering the potential of such follow-ups irrelevant.

[Nepenthe]

The conclusion of an in-game arc doesn't necessarily mean we know everything about a particular character, nor does such a conclusion disallow a character's continued existence. After all, there is nothing preventing anyone from developing new arcs and interesting situations, but even so, relatively static characters can still be welcome in their own right. Really, most of the main characters are static.

Connection problems, yae.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Nerfuffle]

The conclusion of an in-game arc doesn't necessarily mean we know everything about a particular character, nor does such a conclusion disallow a character's continued existence. After all, there is nothing preventing anyone from developing new arcs and interesting situations, but even so, relatively static characters can still be welcome in their own right. Really, most of the main characters are static.

Connection problems, yae.

This is true. I wasn't trying to suggest that though, so I apologize for mixed messages.

All I’m trying to say is we need to know what the characters want for them to be likable. When their goals are called into question, the characters are called into question.

Knuckles wants to protect a giant rock: mission accomplished. What happens now and why should we care?

[Nepenthe]

This is true. I wasn't trying to suggest that though, so I apologize for mixed messages.

All I’m trying to say is we need to know what the characters want for them to be likable. When their goals are called into question, the characters are called into question.

Knuckles wants to protect a giant rock: mission accomplished. What happens now and why should we care?

Trust me, I'm not a fan of constantly keeping him chained down by that insufferable rock. xP I'd rather it be a background element and that he be developed through the means of merely getting deeply involved in the present situations.

As an example, the Werehog debacle was prime opportunity for some killer development for everyone remotely close to the hedgehog. After all, Knuckles has ironically gained a strong sense of distrust of people and situations in response to his gullibility, and such a presence could have shed reasonable doubt on the Werehog's reliability, in turn reinforcing Sonic's own issues.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised why we haven't had more leadership-based tension between Knuckles and Sonic already. The echidna can be competent and has the ability to see an adventure through properly; Why he hasn't called out Sonic for any bullshit (sans Chronicles I hear) and stepped up to the plate himself is beyond me. It'd be a far more interesting dynamic than the usual "You called me a bad name rawr!" stuff we get nowadays.

I'd also suppose the above would be feasible in more accurately demonstrating how Knuckles is trying to come to terms with his place in a society that should ideally be foreign to him. After all, he's spent most of his life on an uninhabited island and is pretty much just getting used to the world around him. Rationally speaking, you think there were bound to be uncomfortable and even terrifying situations he'd have to work through, one of which involving a certain bat for example. Not that I'm gunning for outright shipping, but I hope you get my point. xD

[yoshimario]

Shadow should just be the new Knuckles, nuff said.

Shadow in SA2 was more fun to play as than Knuckles in Sonic 3. Because of the hover skating and abilty to slow down time in multiplyer, we keep forgetting that this is a Sonic game and Sonic himself is a fucking hedgehog faster than anyone of his friends. I could never beat Sonic with Knuckles in S3&K because his jumps sucked. Shadow brings to the table the abilty to keep up with Sonic and not use excessive powerups to keep him ground since he's equal to Sonic in speed.

As rivals. Sonic should have a rival who's equal skilled to his equal skill, speed. Knux and Metal were different and their skills were unbalanced and I could honestly say neither of them were efficiant rivals at the time since both of them never showed skills that Sonic couldn't handle with his speed. Metal was to fast, and Knuckles was to strong, they were both boring to compete against. Shadow has the right set of skills and the same stats as Sonic, it could go either way and thats why Shadow IMO has more to offer. In SA2 Shadow was the first character who was as fast as Sonic(Metal was faster not equal to his speed in Sonic CD) and had a perfect synchronization with Sonic's speed and agilty. His skating was the coolest thing ever, his attacks where like Sonic but more different, and he taught Sonic Chaos Control. So yeah their equals in every way, I like equal rivalry.

[Kiberbot]

In fact, they are not equal anymore. Shadow is slower than Sonic, and keeps up with him only because of his rocket-shoes. And Sonic is not capable to do Chaos Blasts, and other fireshows... So their equality is long gone from canon.

[ArtFenix]

In my opinion they are well-balanced. There are things only Sonic can do, but there are also things only Shadow can do.

I think Shadow can be an awesome character again if sonicteam made him act like he did in Sa2 and Heroes. Overall, Shadow is one of my favourite characters and he's still undeniably one of the most popular and famous Sonic characters.

IMO, the only character which is as much cool as Shadow is Metal Sonic.

Edited October 9, 2010 by ArtFenix

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow should just be the new Knuckles, nuff said.

Why the hell does this have +1 rep? Nevermind.

As rivals. Sonic should have a rival who's equal skilled to his equal skill, speed. Knux and Metal were different and their skills were unbalanced and I could honestly say neither of them were efficiant rivals at the time since both of them never showed skills that Sonic couldn't handle with his speed. Metal was to fast, and Knuckles was to strong, they were both boring to compete against. Shadow has the right set of skills and the same stats as Sonic, it could go either way and thats why Shadow IMO has more to offer. In SA2 Shadow was the first character who was as fast as Sonic(Metal was faster not equal to his speed in Sonic CD) and had a perfect synchronization with Sonic's speed and agilty. His skating was the coolest thing ever, his attacks where like Sonic but more different, and he taught Sonic Chaos Control. So yeah their equals in every way, I like equal rivalry.

Okay, now do you think you could try not being a fanboy when you say that? I getting a heavy vibe of Shadow fanboyism from all of this. There's nothing that says Sonic can't have more than one rival, with differing abilities. And really, none of that holds any basis of determining equality for Shadow towards Sonic than it does for Metal or Knuckles. It's even more ironic that Sonic has beaten all three, and the only character has yet to beat is Silver the Hedgehog.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of constantly keeping him chained down by that insufferable rock. xP I'd rather it be a background element and that he be developed through the means of merely getting deeply involved in the present situations.

Hey, like I said to you once before: get GUN involved.

Make a plot where GUN is tracking Eggman and has determine his target is on Angel Island. Make it to where Sonic and Tails just so happen to be passing by on their way around the world and end up getting dragged into the mess. Have Knuckles fighting GUN because of a misunderstanding since he think THEY'RE the ones invading, and have Eggman take advantage of it. Have Rouge and Shadow keep watch of Knuckles and block his progress should he become a problem for GUN. And at the end, once Eggman is defeated, and GUN and Knuckles come to an understanding, GUN makes Angel Island a protectorate of theres.

In doing so, Knuckles is now free to explore the world while GUN guards the M.E. as he pleases and is made the top authority figure only on Angel Island, and GUN have a new strategic point they can use while they're protecting the world. And on top of that, if someone actually gets the balls to steal the M.E. and succeed, it not only involves Knuckles, but it involves Rouge and Shadow as well.

Talk about heavy, huh?

Edited October 10, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

Hi there ban dodger, fancy seeing you here again.

An antihero is basically when an anime ran out if villainous stuff for a villain to do but they want to keep him around anyway. See Seto Kaiba from Yu Gi Oh or Vegteta immediately after the Freeza saga. They didn't know whether he would be a hero of villian or what.

That Sega would use this title on Shadow is rather telling of the quality of writing we've been getting out of the franchise.

Shadow doesn't really have much of an identity at this point in time, so I'd personally make any story about him be about him trying to find one.

Simply comparing and contrasting the different types of baggage these characters have is a superficial way to look at the situation. Characters are not just plot devices with legs after all. They have wants and needs and their own volition.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Hi there ban dodger, fancy seeing you here again.

Edited October 10, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Flyboy Fox]

IP verified and dealt with. But in future, a report or PM is a much quicker way to alert to a ban-dodger than waiting for a staffer to see it brought up in a topic (:

[Phos]

I'm betting this is probably his fifth year here...that is if he's the same Shadow fan who's been doing this since 2005.

But part of the reason I'm comparing and contrasting them is to equalize where it would be appropriate for them to appear. No character is perfect and they can't appear anywhere simply for the hell of it.

As for their wants, needs, and volitions, another part of why I'm comparing them is because all that is thrown out the window when people want to include other characters simply out of interest.

As we can see with the fanboy above in him wanting to replace Knuckles with Shadow, he's not paying attention to the character as a character. He's a big example of including a character simply because he likes him more than the other one.