The Fallen Cast...

[Frozen Nitrogen]

If you don't see her design as creepy, I can just bring up all the other things I don't like about it. First off, pidgeon feet? Really?

Aaaaaargh can't unsee

[Rusty Spy]

First off, pidgeon feet? Really?

It's a Japanese thing.

The problem with being from the future is that it's hard to come up with reasons for him to be there, there aren't that many possibilities.

He lives in a Crapsack world, with pretty much no one else and constantly has to fight of evil demons and shit. It wouldn't be that hard of a stretch to assume Silver just wanted to stay in the non-Lethal Lava Land present.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

He lives in a Crapsack world, with pretty much no one else and constantly has to fight of evil demons and shit. It wouldn't be that hard of a stretch to assume Silver just wanted to stay in the non-Lethal Lava Land present.

Kinda detracts from his whole "I'm from the future" shtick if he's... not from the future any more.

The best I've been able to come up with for Silver is that he kinda takes on a TimeCop role. Sure, his future is shitty, but it's also the only one he's got. So whenever anyone's engaging in paradox-making stupidity, Silver tends to turn up and PK some sense into them and ensure that events progress "as they should have".

The great thing here is that you can justify him turning up pretty much ANYWHERE with minimal effort, under the catch-all caveat of "History says you didn't succeed today, so I'm gonna stop you!".

[Diogenes]

In that case I think we agree. I remain concerned that many of these 'developments' magic new personality traits out of the air, whole-cloth, as the plot demands, though. No-one is going to convince me that Tails' SA2 (or even SA1) techy-ness is natural trait evolution from the ability to fly a plane in S2. It wasn't even his plane!!

Then came that one early afternoon. Miles found a beautiful aeroplane down at the beach. Miles loved all sorts of machines and vehicles, and he practically tripped over himself running towards the plane.

That slim fuselage, and those wings that could cut like a knife! Fascinated by this beautiful craft, Miles ran around to see the other side, and there he stopped dead in his tracks. Sonic was taking a nap under the wing.

The seeds have been there from day 1. Tails goes from loving machines and vehicles, to flying a biplane, to repairing said biplane and strapping a rocket booster to it, to building his own planes (somewhat unsuccessfully at first), to finishing his own transforming plane, to building a plane that transforms into a mech, and so on. If you can't see where it came from, it's only because you're willfully blinding yourself to it.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Then came that one early afternoon. Miles found a beautiful aeroplane down at the beach. Miles loved all sorts of machines and vehicles, and he practically tripped over himself running towards the plane.

That slim fuselage, and those wings that could cut like a knife! Fascinated by this beautiful craft, Miles ran around to see the other side, and there he stopped dead in his tracks. Sonic was taking a nap under the wing.

Tails going from "Wow I'm 8 and aircraft r kewl" to "I built the the SS Tornado EX, an interdimensional sailboat that harnesses the power of all the Chaos and Sol Emeralds" is like Sonic going from "I like chilli dogs" to "I have opened a chilli dog factory and am the world's largest supplier of chilli dogs and now instead of the spin dash I throw chilli dogs at people".

It is textbook Flanderisation, and, indeed, is at the top of the videogaming examples list. The fact that we are even having this disagreement only proves my point; one man's development is another man's derailment.

[Rusty Spy]

Tails going from "Wow I'm 8 and aircraft r kewl" to "I built the the SS Tornado EX, an interdimensional sailboat that harnesses the power of all the Chaos and Sol Emeralds" is like Sonic going from "I like chilli dogs" to "I have opened a chilli dog factory and am the world's largest supplier of chilli dogs and now instead of the spin dash I throw chilli dogs at people".

It is textbook Flanderisation, and, indeed, is at the top of the videogaming examples list. The fact that we are even having this disagreement only proves my point; one man's development is another man's derailment.

And no, it's not flanderization, it's called character development. The only problem, as I said before, is how they make these newly acquired traits often overshadow all their other traits.

Blame the writers, not the character.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Black Spy

[Frozen Nitrogen]

And no, it's not flanderization, it's called character development. The only problem, as I said before, is how they make these newly acquired traits often overshadow all their other traits.

I can do nothing more than disagree with you in this regard, it seems. What is flanderisation (bad, whitewashing change) and what is character development (good, organic change) fundamentally depends on whether one likes the change or not.

All I can say is that I don't like Tails 1337 mechanical ski11z, whereas you apparently do. I see it as an egregious veering into a cookie-cutter "Tech-guy" niche with very little (not none, sure) basis in previous portrayals (even taking TA into account). You don't. I dare not fathom how your mind has worked in this regard.

Can we at least agree that, whether the development was organic and justified or not, Tails' mechanophilia HAS been mismanaged to the extent that it overshadowed all his other traits in a manner generally detrimental to his character as a whole?

[Rusty Spy]

All I can say is that I don't like Tails 1337 mechanical ski11z, whereas you apparently do. I see it as an egregious veering into a cookie-cutter "Tech-guy" niche with very little (not none, sure) basis in previous portrayals (even taking TA into account). You don't. I dare not fathom how your mind has worked in this regard.

It has been very apparent since the old days that Tails was a genius kid. There has been PLENTY of basis for this, you just don't want to accept it. Manual descriptions, in game examples, the OVA, etc.

Can we at least agree that, whether the development was organic and justified or not, Tails' mechanophilia HAS been mismanaged to the extent that it overshadowed all his other traits in a manner generally detrimental to his character as a whole?

And I do agree. The problem I think you have is that the shift was too quick and jarring, which I can fully understand.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

And I do agree. The problem I think you have is that the shift was too quick and jarring, which I can fully understand.

In which case let's swing drunkenly back into Amy before CSS wakes up and yells at us all, then.

The more I look at this (and listen to Phos, admittedly) the creepier it gets. It really does look like she's wearing someone else's scalp as a hat, and that muzzle-center mouth is just WRONG. I've no problems with Amy's SA1 redesign at all (probably helped by the fact that she'd not really been used enough for me to get attached to the old one before), but the Unleashed model is just derp.

As far as Amy characterisation goes I don't really think there's any more of my stall to set out. I've no major problems with anything about her at present; they could tone down her stalkerish-ness a bit by having her occasionally do something - ANYTHING - other than track Sonic across the planet (even briefly serving as Cream's big sister in Shadow and Battle was a turn for the better) once in a while.

I'd maintain that joining the army because she feels the need to volountarily have a bit of fascist discipline jackbooted into her is something completly out of character and why would you even consider it.

It'd be precisely as in-character as Cream joining a biker gang. WAT.

[Rusty Spy]

The more I look at this (and listen to Phos, admittedly) the creepier it gets. It really does look like she's wearing someone else's scalp as a hat, and that muzzle-center mouth is just WRONG. I've no problems with Amy's SA1 redesign at all (probably helped by the fact that she'd not really been used enough for me to get attached to the old one before), but the Unleashed model is just derp.

Seems more like a 3D model thing. Any drawing of her doesn't have that sort of problem from what I've seen.

Fooooooor example:

As far as Amy characterisation goes I don't really think there's any more of my stall to set out. I've no major problems with anything about her at present; they could tone down her stalkerish-ness a bit by having her occasionally do something - ANYTHING - other than track Sonic across the planet (even briefly serving as Cream's big sister in Shadow and Battle was a turn for the better) once in a while.

I'd maintain that joining the army because she feels the need to volountarily have a bit of fascist discipline jackbooted into her is something completly out of character and why would you even consider it.

It'd be precisely as in-character as Cream joining a biker gang. WAT.

Indeed *sips tea*

[Badnik Zero]

So I'm in agreement with Frozen that characters do not need to drastically change. In fact now that the series is moving towards its 20th birthday this is more important than ever. We can learn from comic books. Spider-Man has been that Power and Responsibility guy for like fifty years now. Any long term story always returns to the status-quo. Spider-Man's girlfriend dies, and the moral remains the same. Spider-Man becomes married, his aunt dies, but things eventually come full circle. They reset Spidey's storyline a year or two ago I think. Lasting changes are not necessary, and ultimately should be measured by popular reaction.

Anyways, blah blah blah. Since we've left that topic behind so here's my evaluations of Knuckles and Amy.

KNUCKLES

So I like Knuckles a lot. On the question of whether he should tag along, I'd like him to when possible. I take less issue with his unguarded Emerald and more with his willingness to be a Sonic Hero. He's not made for that kind of thing. As a proud clan guardian dude, and rugged loner survivalist dude, he needs a reason to hang around Sonic and Tails. Not that he doesn't consider them friends. I think his relationship with the Chaos Emeralds needs to be played up so that he can have a valid interest in the well being of the gems. That gives him a reason to get out. As for the Master Emerald, it doesn't matter. He hired the Chaotix.

I'd also like to ask how Knuckles gets back up to Angel Island after he departs. Can he lower it to climb back on? I ran into this problem in the RP we did.

Also since CSS seems to think Knuckles gets a free ride due to classic favoritism, I'll say I'd like there to be a character roulette with every game. It helps develop our more boring characters to give them starring roles. I mean Rouge is pretty boring today, but I was into her during SA2. She had a part to play there.

AMY ROSE

Amy's alright. I agree she needs to do more than follow Sonic around, even if it has to do with following Sonic around. What do I mean. I actually like the fangirl side of Amy, it's cute to have a character like that. I think she needs a posse to interact with, and not stray ends she adopted into her circle. How about she's the founder of her own Sonic fan club. Retcon that into her past. She also needs to talk to other characters besides him. In a way she's become the needy side of classic Tails now that Tails has moved on. In that respect she should behave like classic Tails and try to impress Sonic instead of just harassing him.

One thing that should be developed is her spunky energetic side, because she's a lot like Sonic in that way. She seems to have two settings of mild and caring, and then psycho and needy. I wish they'd balance these into a full character. I could live with it if she became a quieter Marine type. She just follows around now.

[Rusty Spy]

Also since CSS seems to think Knuckles gets a free ride due to classic favoritism

You do realize that this entire time he's been saying the EXACT OPPOSITE?

[Dejablue]

Tails going from "Wow I'm 8 and aircraft r kewl" to "I built the the SS Tornado EX, an interdimensional sailboat that harnesses the power of all the Chaos and Sol Emeralds" is like Sonic going from "I like chilli dogs" to "I have opened a chilli dog factory and am the world's largest supplier of chilli dogs and now instead of the spin dash I throw chilli dogs at people".

That isn't text book flanderization at all Nitro. Dude I don't see anything wrong with Tails having a passion and going with it. Your analogy is stupid because at least with Tails his skills grow and allow him to help Sonic further. His love for all things mechanical will never hinder Tails from being Sonic's best friend unless he like..Joined GUN and became an engineer for them but that hasn't happened has it. No it hasn't.

Oh yeah and...um...Amy? I dunno my views on her are probably the most complex out of anyone with Tails coming in close second. But I don't feel like writing an LAP so...

Amy joining the military is something I could never see happening. Especially a military as messed up and corrupt as GUN. She'll fight with her friends to the bitter end though so I think she wouldn't even need to join the military in the first place. I like the idea of Amy being fundamentally one of the weaker fighters of the Sonic Gang but still having the courage to at least try and defend those she cares about. And sometimes being that character who'll make evil guys turn good. Like in SA2. But not all the time.

I think the best way you can give lip service to why Amy ends up where she does is to simply give her a friendship with Tails. At least then she's at the right place at the right time and she just kinda gets stuck in the conflict like a fly to fly paper.

She could be like "Oh Tails is so boring with all his talk about airplanes and mechs. But I need to ask him something about Sonic sooooo..." And then unbeknownst to her some (not a lot but some) of Tails' interests rub off on her giving her a legitimate reason to be at Tails' workshop when she's too low on cash to go shopping of course.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Dejablue

[Badnik Zero]

You do realize that this entire time he's been saying the EXACT OPPOSITE?

I see CSS saying again and again how Knuckles shouldn't be off his island just because he's classic cast. But I guess he'll speak for himself when he arrives.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Frozen Nitrogen]

So I like Knuckles a lot. On the question of whether he should tag along, I'd like him to when possible. I take less issue with his unguarded Emerald and more with his willingness to be a Sonic Hero. He's not made for that kind of thing. As a proud clan guardian dude, and rugged loner survivalist dude, he needs a reason to hang around Sonic and Tails. Not that he doesn't consider them friends. I think his relationship with the Chaos Emeralds needs to be played up so that he can have a valid interest in the well being of the gems. That gives him a reason to get out.

That's actually a better idea than my "He comes down from the island to hunt through Knuckles Clan ruins" one. I know that at least in some languages, Knuckles always considered himself the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds as well as the Master. Even if he's got a significantly less legitimate claim on those gems than he has on the big green one, it is nevertheless true that the Master Emerald shrine has space for the Chaos Emeralds, so he might be interested in collecting those too...

...or at least going to beat up people who are misusing them. Knuckles more than anyone knows the danger of abusing the gems - it's what Pachacamac did, and it's why old Red is consigned to a life of perpetual hermetic loneliness. So anyone strolling around nonchalantly abusing Chaos Control like some kind of cheap party trick needs to get a spiked fist rammed straight up their ass.

*cough*Shadow*cough*

Edited July 4, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Dejablue]

Knuckles transferring his anger over to shadow could be cool. At least it gives him somebody to be angry at again. Over time all of Sonic's enemies become his friends. Well most of the time anyway.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Dejablue

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Boy, I just can't seem to lay off of apocalyptically long posts, can I?

Whatever character you want to put in the subtitle doesn't matter so much to a subconversation about the nature of good character development.

Well if you don't mind, I'd like to keep things on track. I wouldn't mind a subconversation so long as we still keep the main subject in mind, but when another character is mentioned more than the one we're focusing on is where I feel a need to keep things in order.

But you didn't answer my question: Are you okay with letting other characters appear without too much regard of the very attributes that determine whether or not they get the green light to appear? Because I for one am not okay with that for just about any character.

Having a big rock that barely anyone knows about and even fewer have a reason to take is not comparable to dragging in GUN.

Hence why I already said that they differ in terms of what they are. That still doesn't sidestep the fact that they have a common ground among each other. If nothing happens to that big rock, or the island, or himself if Knuckles gets hotheaded enough to leave the island because someone attacked him directly and ran away, what can he fall back on as a reason for being around that other characters couldn't? I can think of many reasons, but even then those reasons have to be done at alternate points in time instead of it being at consecutive points.

This is not a question of GUN being unbelivably, this I'd a case of GUN being perhaps the worst thing to happen to the franchise. They had this story about a hedgehog who saves the world, so they decided that what this story needed was a Tom Clancy organization (who employed Gerald Robotnik who is somehow Ivo's grandfather even though the family tree seems to stop with Maria).

I'm not seeing how that makes it a bad thing for the series. Then again, I actually like GUN.

The problem with being from the future is that it's hard to come up with reasons for him to be there, there aren't that many possibilities.

I can think of a few ways how he can be around:

-The first has already been given to us, a threat in the present becomes so serious that it ends up being a danger in the future and needs to be stopped at a time before it got so powerful.

-Another is that a villian from his future could escape to the present and try to conquer the world with ease, giving him a reason to come to the present and bring the villian back to the future.

-Another is that someone could end up screwing with the passage of time and end up draging him from the future and into the present.

-Or rather than bring him from the future and to the present, why not bring some of the other characters from the present to the future and trying to find their way back to their own time period.

-Or another idea that could play off the third idea is that you could have all the characters set up a form of global monitoring system that extends throughout certain time periods; if someone ends up causing trouble that might spell problems for any time period, each of the characters involved would be able to track it to prevent it from becoming a problem. This is a really complex one, but I'm confident it could work well if done right.

-Or you could end up having someone fuse the time periods into a newer one and the characters could benefit from the knowledge and capablilities of each others time periods.

Whether you're up to those ideas is something else, but I don't find it that hard to think up reasons for any character to be around when they have certain attributes that determine whether they should be around. When those attributes are ignored in favor of letting the character be around for the heck of it or for vague reasons that any and all characters could be around for is where I see a problem that needs to be solved.

In Knuckles's case, he has to leave an island that, via the plausible deniability of it floating around could be near by whatever is happening anyway.

Whatever is happening in the area the Floating Island may be heading for does not give that much of an excuse as for why Knuckles should leave it, just like Shadow simply being around in the area, or GUN being nearby, or anyone else.

If such a thing happens to directly involve the characters in some form, I could understand why they're around without any questions. Saving the world, or helping out other characters doesn't exactly fall under that considering we could bring in the entire cast off of those two reasons alone.

In which case let's swing drunkenly back into Amy before CSS wakes up and yells at us all, then.

Wassup gaiz?

I see CSS saying again and again how Knuckles shouldn't be off his island just because he's classic cast. But I guess he'll speak for himself when he arrives.

Yes, I do. And I will forever stand by that claim because it puts him on an unfair pedestal in comparison to other characters. However, I'm like that for every other character as well, more specifically Shadow who's one of my favorites. He has more of a connection with things such as the Chaos Emerald, GUN, the ARK, etc. but if there's nothing that directly involves him, he shouldn't be around for the sake of saving the world. And even more, he doesn't even need to save the world.

To really even things out, I think it's unfair for Big, my least liked character, to never appear simply because people don't like him, or because they claim "there's nothing to do with him". If you can think up something for Shadow to be around, you can think up something for Big the Cat to be around too. Me not liking Big is no reason for him not to appear in a plot, and in fact I think that it's more than possible to make Big as a useful character in the series.

Is that a good insight into how I think, or do you want me to go into even greater detail of how my mind works?

So anyone strolling around nonchalantly abusing Chaos Control like some kind of cheap party trick needs to get a spiked fist rammed straight up their ass.

*cough*Shadow*cough*

Ho, that's a good one. And better yet, Knuckles doesn't even need to have much of a connection with the Chaos Emeralds than he does with the Master Emerald to go along with that. The Master Emerald could serve as that kind of indicator for Knuckles and he can venture out to go find the source of the problems (while making dead sure that the Master Emerald is virtually impossible to steal while he's away to counter that, which would make things complex, but we could ignore that for now until we go back to Knuckles).

It has something that could greatly involve Knuckles, and better yet it could serve as a reason for Knuckles and Shadow to fight each other...wait, WTF are we doing on Knuckles and Shadow? This is about Amy goddammit!

Ah well, let's just make sure she stays the main focus even tho we get on a different route (which ironically, I haven't been doing in this post...meh I'll keep it in mind next time).

Edited July 4, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Ho, that's a good one. And better yet, Knuckles doesn't even need to have much of a connection with the Chaos Emeralds than he does with the Master Emerald to go along with that. The Master Emerald could serve as that kind of indicator for Knuckles and he can venture out to go find the source of the problems (while making dead sure that the Master Emerald is virtually impossible to steal while he's away to counter that, which would make things complex, but we could ignore that for now until we go back to Knuckles).

Incidentally, that's what I did in my Sonic Rush fic to justify Knuckles' random appearence against Blaze after Mirage Road. Bringing the Sol Emeralds into Sonic's world makes the Master Emerald spazz out and rough up the Hidden Palace, which is what compels the echidna to take a trip to the surface and find out who's fucking around with cosmos-destroying energies.

Made sense in my head.

[Dejablue]

Lol CSS you aren't even following your own rules. we might as well shift gears and talk about Knuckles....again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Incidentally, that's what I did in my Sonic Rush fic to justify Knuckles' random appearence against Blaze after Mirage Road. Bringing the Sol Emeralds into Sonic's world makes the Master Emerald spazz out and rough up the Hidden Palace, which is what compels the echidna to take a trip to the surface and find out who's fucking around with cosmos-destroying energies.

Made sense in my head.

Hell, it makes sense to me too. In fact, I'd say you even broadened the M.E.'s involvement when you bring the Sol Emeralds to that, expanding Knuckles' roles even further.

In any case, going back to Amy, if we wouldn't go along with Amy joining the military (oh come on, at the very least interact more with Shadow and Rouge ), it would be interesting what other possible routes she could take. I like the idea of her being Tails' lab assistant and learning a few engineering skills along the way, as she could be even more useful to other characters she's around. Hell, if you give her a few skills that only she has and that Sonic would likely need to have around, I think you she could even justify being around Sonic even more.

A lot of the time, Sonic usually has it covered, or if he doesn't he has the more usual characters like Tails, Shadow, etc who could help him handle it while Amy is still relegated as somewhat of a nuisance to Sonic at times. And honestly, I'd like to see something where he would really need Amy's help more than anyone else in a certain situation.

Lol CSS you aren't even following your own rules. we might as well shift gears and talk about Knuckles....again.

Hey, shut up and leave me alone.

At least I'm keeping it neutral on who I'm talking about.

Okay, but I'm getting back to Amy. At least I stuck by my word when I said that, right?

Edited July 4, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

In any case, going back to Amy, if we wouldn't go along with Amy joining the military (oh come on, at the very least interact more with Shadow and Rouge ), it would be interesting what other possible routes she could take. I like the idea of her being Tails' lab assistant and learning a few engineering skills along the way, as she could be even more useful to other characters she's around. Hell, if you give her a few skills that only she has and that Sonic would likely need to have around, I think you she could even justify being around Sonic even more.

I certainly agree that the secondary characters should interact more with each other when Sonic's not around (or even when he IS, Chronicles). Although pretty much all Rouge's interactions with Amy have been hostile so far (lol Battle), I thought Amy getting some FIGHT CLUB training from Rouge and Espio would make sense, if only to retroactively justify her random invisibility ski11z in '06.

[Phos]

Where did this thing about Amy joining the military come from? Are people ITT seriously considering this? Why is a military even a thing that exists in Sonic?

I can think of a few ways how he can be around:

The point is, for Silver or Blaze to be in a story, the entire story has to be about why they are there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Where did this thing about Amy joining the military come from? Are people ITT seriously considering this?

From me, and I'm the only one who considered it so far while everyone else is either unsure how that could even work or is against it.

The point is, for Silver or Blaze to be in a story, the entire story has to be about why they are there.

No it doesn't, it could make up a part of the story, but not the entire plot just like how the ME has to make up a part of the story rather than all of it for why Knuckles is there, or the Space Colony Ark making up a part of the story rather than all of it for Shadow.

Edited July 4, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Viviroking]

From me, and I'm the only one who considered it so far while everyone else is either unsure how that could even work or is against it.

I thought about Amy joining GUN a long while ago, but am still undecided on whether it would be a good decission or a bad one. Of course, I'd also thought Amy should get a different hair style eventually, but that's probably not gonna happen.

[Rusty Spy]

No it doesn't, it could make up a part of the story, but not the entire plot just like how the ME has to make up a part of the story rather than all of it for why Knuckles is there, or the Space Colony Ark making up a part of the story rather than all of it for Shadow.

The ARK was a central part of the story, and was the key focus of pretty much the whole game. (unless you mean the ARK being a part of the story in general?)