The Fallen Cast...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The ARK was a central part of the story, and was the key focus of pretty much the whole game. (unless you mean the ARK being a part of the story in general?)

Yeah, I mean it as part of the story in general.

It also wasn't as big a focus in comparison in Shadow's game, where as the Chaos Emeralds, the Black Arms and the Black Comet played a far bigger focus on the plot.

Either way it goes, you don't need the entire story to explain why a character is around, things like the Blaze's dimension, Shadow's ARK, or Knuckles ME can make up a part of the plot, but not the entire thing.

I thought about Amy joining GUN a long while ago, but am still undecided on whether it would be a good decission or a bad one. Of course, I'd also thought Amy should get a different hair style eventually, but that's probably not gonna happen.

And here I thought I was the only one. I see that going either way in terms of how it can be done.

Amy could change her whole personality during her time in the military, by which she would be a whole new Amy, or she could mature a little more, keeping on to traits like her obsessive crush on Sonic and such while maintain a degree of control over herself. The latter would more than likely be the best route if that were to happen.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Amy could change her whole personality during her time in the military, by which she would be a whole new Amy, or she could mature a little more, keeping on to traits like her obsessive crush on Sonic and such while maintain a degree of control over herself. The latter would more than likely be the best route if that were to happen.

You know it'd be REALLY flippin' awkward to have the cheery, happy-go-lucky girl like Amy JOIN THE MILITARY.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know it'd be REALLY flippin' awkward to have the cheery, happy-go-lucky girl like Amy JOIN THE MILITARY.

Yeah, I know it's awkward, just like a lot of other ideas I have.

But what, she can't still be that way even if she was in the military?

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Either way it goes, you don't need the entire story to explain why a character is around, things like the Blaze's dimension, Shadow's ARK, or Knuckles ME can make up a part of the plot, but not the entire thing.

I think being separated by time or dimension is a hell of a lot harder to explain away than guarding the Master Emerald or...wait, why does Shadow "need" the ARK to be relevant? Whatever, the point is it's a lot harder to justify a character jumping through time or across dimensions than it is for a character in the same world and time period to get involved. It may not require the entire game to revolve around it, but it's got to be a much bigger part of the story for it to be believable.

Also regarding Amy joining GUN...I support characters developing over time, but that seems way too far out there. I really can't see any part of Amy's current personality leading to that...proper character development needs to work with the existing traits, not counter to them.

[Rusty Spy]

But what, she can't still be that way even if she was in the military?

Not that she can't be her usual ol' self, it's the fact that it sounds so out of character for someone like her (happy-happy-rainbow-sunshine) to join the super serious gunmetal grey military.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...wait, why does Shadow "need" the ARK to be relevant?

He really doesn't need it nowadays, but if something were to somehow involve the ARK in a minor or major part of the plot you can expect Shadow to be involved somehow.

That, and it was just the first thing to come to mind in terms to which character has what connected to them.

Whatever, the point is it's a lot harder to justify a character jumping through time or across dimensions than it is for a character in the same world and time period to get involved. It may not require the entire game to revolve around it, but it's got to be a much bigger part of the story for it to be believable.

I understand that, I just find it a bit too much of a claim to say that the whole plot has to revolve around that for it to explain why other characters are around, or to put others in a higher priority simply because they're easier to write in.

Also regarding Amy joining GUN...I support characters developing over time, but that seems way too far out there. I really can't see any part of Amy's current personality leading to that...proper character development needs to work with the existing traits, not counter to them.

Well I wouldn't see any sense of her just randomly joining the miltary out of the blue either, but I just wanted to know how it could work out if there was a possibility of that happening.

Not that she can't be her usual ol' self, it's the fact that it sounds so out of character for someone like her (happy-happy-rainbow-sunshine) to join the super serious gunmetal grey military.

Oh come now, Rouge isn't anything super serious and it can be assumed that she has a significant rank over others as an agent in their ranks. And she started out that way. And on top of that, Shadow was already super serious way before he joined their ranks.

I don't think Amy's character would conflict that much if she decided to join at some point in time...I don't think her characterization is that of "happy-happy-rainbow-sunshine" tho, she doesn't act that girly dispite how she's portrayed.

I won't downplay yours or Diogene's point on her energy being something that might find some odds with that kind of occupation tho. She would have to have some events happen to her over time before she would even consider that, but if she did end up doing so, I don't think a super serious attitude would rub off onto her than it would give her a greater sense of control why still being how she was before joining the military.

In any case, I'm surprised that Amy spawned exactly four and a half page over Knuckles' one and a half. Anyone up for a switch or should we stay on Amy some more?

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Oh come now, Rouge isn't anything super serious and it can be assumed that she has a significant rank over others as an agent in their ranks.

Amy and Rouge are hardly alike. Amy herself just doesn't seem to be the kind of character to take on such a heavy duty job.

I don't think Amy's character would conflict that much if she decided to join at some point in time.

It'd need hella explaining to give a good enough reason why she decided to take on such an occupation, which would inevitably lead to a conflict in her character.

She would have to have some events happen to her over time before she would even consider that,

Which would involve a serious character derailment.

but if she did end up doing so, I don't think a super serious attitude would rub off onto her than it would give her a greater sense of control why still being how she was before joining the military.

I'm not saying a darker and edgier attitude would rub off on her as being the problem, but rather her current personality really clashes with having such an occupation.

As someone else said, it's like Cream joining a biker gang.

In any case, I'm surprised that Amy spawned exactly four and a half page over Knuckles' one and a half. Anyone up for a switch or should we stay on Amy some more?

Why not.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Black Spy

[Viviroking]

As far as Amy being in GUN is concerned, I think it would work, but only after long time of character development. And if SEGA hired good writers.

I say to go ahead and change characters.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Amy and Rouge are hardly alike. Amy herself just doesn't seem to be the kind of character to take on such a heavy duty job.

I'm not saying they're anything alike, but that Rouge is an example of a not-so-serious character with a more serious occupation on her sleeves. Rouge is a much different story with her starting out working for the military, but even so, if she's not one to take things super seriously I wouldn't see her as the only exception should any other character choose to be in a military role as well. I wouldn't want to derail Amy's character in the process should she decide to join it over time. I'd say it really depends upon how that is handled, and it would be the worst case scenario if she has her character derailed prior to her joining a military organization.

But in any case, let's move on, shall we?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So in light of Amy getting much more attention than Rad Red Knuckles in a shorter period of time, there are other characters who don't seem to receive much light.

Of all the characters who don't get a lot of attention within the series, Rouge the Bat stands as one of them. To be fair, she's a lot more accepted than characters like Cream and somewhat well known among other recurring characters. But since her debut in SA2, she has slowly sunken towards a much lesser role than she once had.

Rouge is somewhat interesting in terms of what she does for a living. It can be assumed she's a jewel thief, her having tried to steal Knuckles ME in SA2, but she also works as a Government Spy for GUN, and with her being one to report to the president, I guess we could say she holds a pretty decent rank to be given that kind of honor.

Rouge is a bit of a flirt, having flirted with Knuckles, and from what very little I actually looked up a bit from Chronicles she's flirted with Sonic too. This seems to give off the impression to her being sterotyped as a slut by some people, in terms of her personality and design.

Her actions are seemingly belittled by that sterotype, especially when you look at some of the things she has done. Infiltrated Eggman's circle so she could get information in terms of what was going on throughout the plot in SA2 from the inside, freed Shadow from his encapsulation in Heroes, made a (failed) attempt to infiltrate Eggman's base to steal the Scepter of Chaos in Sonic 06 if I remember correctly, etc. And even further from her sterotype, she's among the smartest, or at least one of the most well informed, characters in the series. If your a government spy, it can be assumed at the least that you have quite a lot of knowledge on a lot of parts of the world, given her knowledge of Soleanna in Sonic 06, however irrelevant that information was in general to the plot.

And let's give her even further credit. How many people, let alone many female characters, actually has the courage to outright fight powerhouses like Knuckles and somewhat match him in skill? She may not be as physically strong as he is (or she might if she was able to pick up someone as heavy as Omega with ease in Heroes), but you don't see Knuckles fighting other characters other than Sonic, nor would you associate many characters with him like that. Blaze being similar to Sonic might potentially be willing to go against Knuckles in a all out fight...I've not actually seen that happen tho, or I might not remember that...but she's not the character we're on.

Funny enough, I'd be hard-pressed to find many flaws on her. That's not to say she's been handled too decently, but that it's not easy to find such major flaws on her that stands out much compared to other characters. She's not mentioned as much in comparison to lesser used characters like Silver or Blaze, and yet she's been around much longer than they have. As far as I look at her, the only flaw I can make out would be how she's been downplayed to the levels she currently stands when she could certainly do better. Although I could go along with her so called "usefulness" in ShTH, but that could even transfer to other characters as well. The beginning of Shadow's part in Sonic 06 could probably mark one of the few, if only, instances where you could consider her a damsel in distress, and given her skills it makes me wonder how she fell into that archetype, however briefly it was. Then there is the fact that she's barely made use of her talents to the extent that she has in SA2 and either fallen on a rather meh scale to one that puts her into the dark from other characters.

I'm sure some of you can be fair and point out some flaws that I may have missed, that is if you can be neutral about her and what she's done during her time in the series. No hate talk, ya hear?

Needless to say, given her occupation, there's quite a lot she can do. Her role as a spy could greatly be used to actually portray her more as a spy. The only major use of that occupation (as far as I've seen, mind you) would be in SA2, where she convinced everyone in the Dark path that she was on their side until near the end. Aside from that her spy talents haven't exactly played much of a significant part than it used to. It would also help if she interacted a lot more with people outside of her usual clique. You barely see her interact with other characters like Tails or Blaze.

In short, what are your thoughts on the batgirl? What do you see, and what can she improve on?

[Rusty Spy]

I'm not saying they're anything alike, but that Rouge is an example of a not-so-serious character with a more serious occupation on her sleeves.

What I'm saying is, she has a more lighthearted personality for entirely different reasons, which, in her case don't contrast with her occupation.

Well on the subject of Rouge, like you, I'm also hard pressed to find any real flaws in her. Though there is ONE thing I have a bit of a problem with, and it's that she rarely does anything in the games. For someone who perfectly qualifies as the series Action Girl, she has pretty much NEVER gotten any spotlight. Of course most of that is in part because of her minor status and lack of proper character fleshing, but she pretty much just sits there in her appearances and pretends to do government stuff.

Though personality wise she's all well and good, especially when tag teamed with Omega and Shadow.

[Dejablue]

For people who think Amy should work with GUN. Why her and not someone like..Tails? I mean Tails at least qualifies more. He's got the knowledge.

But the more I think about it the more absurd it sounds. If only because they're both too young and innocent.

As far as Rouge goes. I don't see that many flaws. Why? Well because she doesn't have much to do. I mean I don't know how you can give her a role of relevance very easily anymore. She could very easily slide off into obscurity like Cream the Rabbit.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Dejablue

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

For people who think Amy should work with GUN. Why her and not someone like..Tails? I mean Tails at least qualifies more. He's got the knowledge.

Because we're not discussing Tails yet, that's why.

But the more I think about it the more absurd it sounds. If only because they're both too young and innocent.

Innocent? Tails and Amy may not be among the more powerful characters in this series, but that doesn't mean they can't cause some damage. Them being innocent kind of downplays what they're capable of, especially considering that they both broke into Prison Island without any kind of authorization in SA2 just to free Sonic who was considered a crimial. A noble cause, but I wouldn't call them innocent given that they're capable of doing something like that...and how Amy got there without too much of a hassle is something up for question, but we're on someone else now.

In short, age doesn't particularly matter in comparison to skill in this series.

As far as Rouge goes. I don't see that many flaws. Why? Well because she doesn't have much to do. I mean I don't know how you can give her a role of relevance very easily anymore. She could very easily slide off into obscurity like Cream the Rabbit.

The fact that she works as a government spy gives her plenty to do. She could be keeping track of all the other characters in the series and working with them to ensure Eggman stays in check should he become more lethal than usual, and that spy status of hers could possibly allow her even more resources at her disposal, and if by any chance she works with someone who happens to have some value in helping complete her mission, if her mission actually concerns them or is given out for the most part, she could very well share those resources with guys like Sonic and Tails.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

I didn't mean age = skill level. What I'm trying to say basically is that neither of them have a reason in the slightest to join GUN for the long term. At all.

I think Rouge's gameplay needs to be reworked. I guess she's an okay character for the story. But when you play her you're just playing Knuckles. And Knuckles isn't very spy like if you know what I mean.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Dejablue

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't mean age = skill level. What I'm trying to say basically is that neither of them have a reason in the slightest to join GUN for the long term. At all.

Yeah, right now they don't. Whether or not they will in the future may not be likely, but it's just something I thought would be interesting if they did.

I think Rouge's gameplay needs to be reworked. I guess she's an okay character for the story. But when you play her you're just playing Knuckles. And Knuckles isn't very spy like if you know what I mean.

We're not talking about gameplay here, we're talking about characterization and plot roles. Gameplay has been irrelevant since the start of this topic.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[JaidynReiman]

Yes, I'm posting in this topic. xD

I definitely see a lot of potential in Rouge. In fact, I want to see her role increased again. But she does seem to have a pretty good standing overall. She doesn't appear in too many side stories, but Rouge has appeared in every main 3D Sonic game since Sonic Adventure 2, with the exception of Sonic Unleashed (which had a very small cast of only classic characters, anyway, along with Prof. Pickle).

Either way, Rouge can do a LOT of stuff, both military-wise and non. She's completely treasure-hunting in Sonic Rivals 2, trying to steal the Master Emerald once again, ultimately succeeding in the end. GUN isn't really a factor here at all. In most games, she's got a combination of roles; working for GUN, but also stealing stuff in her own free time while doing her mission.

For a game, Rouge could get involve easily by stealing a certain item, perhaps even the Master Emerald, also dragging Knuckles into the mess. Perhaps she could steal a mysterious artifact that attracts the attention of Eggman. Or perhaps she can be working on a GUN mission and gets dragged into the fray. She also has a lot of interactions with Shadow, too, and quite frequently gets involved with both the black hedgehog and Omega, a slightly less-used recurring character.

Honestly, there's a ton that can be done with her. I also don't really see many flaws with her character, either... as far as usage is concerned, I don't really think she's underused except in spinoff games. In fact, Rouge is more of an ideal example of how Sonic characters should be used--not too little, not too much.

[Phos]

No it doesn't, it could make up a part of the story, but not the entire plot just like how the ME has to make up a part of the story rather than all of it for why Knuckles is there, or the Space Colony Ark making up a part of the story rather than all of it for Shadow.

Oh sure, I'll just make a story about Robotnik tying Amy to some railroad tracks, oh, and btw, time travel. You don't just stick time travel into a story without it becoming the most significant thing to happen.

I bet Rouge had some really well-defined motivation in some early version of SA 2's script (though I kind of doubt it), but in the final game, she's working towards some ulterior motive that we never see. We have no idea what her relationship with GUN is, why she stopped on the way to infiltrate Eggman's base to try to steal the ME, or how she found the time to do so (AWOL, anyone?). Her character is completely baffling to me. The things she does over the course of the game seem to happen out of chronological order. That's hardly the first time something like that happened to her. In Sonic 06, there's a scene where Mephiles tells Omega that Omega will imprison Shadow. Rouge says that she'll stick with him, but gives no hint as to who she is addressing with that statement. Because of how long the pauses are between lines, I can tell it's supposed to be an emotional scene for everyone involved, but that creates a problem as it's possible for her character to be interpreted two completely different ways.

But it was funny that time Shadow copped a feel on her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdm9ZYExhDk&#t=32s

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Oh sure, I'll just make a story about Robotnik tying Amy to some railroad tracks, oh, and btw, time travel.

Technically, he already did that in Sonic CD...but with more of a race track instead of a rail road track.

You don't just stick time travel into a story without it becoming the most significant thing to happen.

And what rule says that? Because as far as I'm aware it's not impossible to make something more significant than time travel going on, and it has been pulled off outside of this series.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Oh sure, I'll just make a story about Robotnik tying Amy to some railroad tracks, oh, and btw, time travel. You don't just stick time travel into a story without it becoming the most significant thing to happen.

I'll go with what seems to be the general consensus that the only real problem with Rouge is underuse. She's amongst the easiest to justify crowbar-ing into any story; she either turns up because GUN's interested in whatever freakiness has recently been going on, or she turns up because she wants to steal whatever (shiny) freakiness has recently been going on.

She could deploy a whole suite of skills that we've never actually seen in the games (outside Chronicles), as well - from 1337 hearing p0werz to bat-shrieking other people's ears off. This alongside her GUN-supplied gadgetry; Rouge would actually make a far more palletable 'tech guy' than Tails, in that she just throws GUN hacking devices at stuff until all your technological requirements are met.

Though now that I think about it, if there was anything I was going to change about Rouge, it would probably be to de-emphasise her reliance on GUN. She's still the only even vaguely evil-aligned female in the games, and I'd actually like to see her as unambiguously hostile to the rest of the heroes every once in a while. In SA2 she was only on the villain side as a GUN mole, and in Rivals 2 she was only on Nega's side because she didn't know he was Nega. I think it'd be a good piece of anti-heroism for her to unambiguously have her allegience bought by Eggman for a game - maybe proceed to tag-team with Metal Sonic, and serve as the villainous counterpart to Tails while Sonic and Metal are doing their own similar punch-punch-punch.

[Rusty Spy]

And what rule says that? Because as far as I'm aware it's not impossible to make something more significant than time travel going on, and it has been pulled off outside of this series.

But when the time travel is justification for a character being a part of the plot, it only feels like an Excuse Plot to have them in there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yo Frozen Nitro. That image doesn't seem to work.

But when the time travel is justification for a character being a part of the plot, it only feels like an Excuse Plot to have them in there.

But that wouldn't have it make up the entire plot. It's happened, but it can still play secondary to other things in the plot.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

But that wouldn't have it make up the entire plot. It's happened, but it can still play secondary to other things in the plot.

That's the problem. When you have a plot device being used to have a certain character appear in the story, it feels like an utter cop-out.

[Crystal Kingfisher]

Rouge is a very boring character these days. She was awesome in SA2 because of the whole conflict between her and Knuckles, and also I loved the scene where Knuckles saved her, showing that he somewhat cares for her. But ever since Sonic Heroes, she just became a very boring and uninteresting character. If they were to include Rouge in another Sonic game someday, they should really improve on her character.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Rouge is a very boring character these days. She was awesome in SA2 because of the whole conflict between her and Knuckles, and also I loved the scene where Knuckles saved her, showing that he somewhat cares for her. But ever since Sonic Heroes, she just became a very boring and uninteresting character. If they were to include Rouge in another Sonic game someday, they should really improve on her character.

Didn't we get a sufficient fill of the lovey-dovey SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK in Heroes?

Rouge is a bad guy. If she wants to be credible and interesting she aught to be kicking people in the face rather than falling into a lava pit and need to get rescued.

[Glenn]

Didn't we get a sufficient fill of the lovey-dovey SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK in Heroes?

Rouge is a bad guy. If she wants to be credible and interesting she aught to be kicking people in the face rather than falling into a lava pit and need to get rescued.

An interesting point. One I'd almost forgotten.

Rouge is indeed a baddie. She has very little morality intact, given her profession as a thief. I'm quite in favour of her "toning up" her wickedness... these days the protectiveness towards younger audiences is annoying enough and I felt Rouge's status as a blatant and unashamed criminal was very, very interesting. Outside of Sonic Battle, though, I've yet to see it used for anything other than convenient plot purposes (like the opening of Team Dark's story in Sonic Heroes, where she happens to be robbing from Dr. Eggman before all the lovey-dovery SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK kicks in... in fact, why is she even there in the rest of that storyline, anyway?!).

A darker Rouge, then? Not insane supervillainy... that's Eggman's land, but something a bit more cold and calculating, yes.

[Rusty Spy]

Remember, Rouge IS a member of GUN. If she was caught doing any major theifing, she'd get fired right on the spot.

If SA2 was anything to go by, she usually asks for her jewels as payment rather than stealing.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Black Spy