The Fallen Cast...

[Octarine]

Didn't we get a sufficient fill of the lovey-dovey SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK in Heroes?

Rouge is a bad guy. If she wants to be credible and interesting she aught to be kicking people in the face rather than falling into a lava pit and need to get rescued.

Her fault for engaging in hand-to-hand combat on those teeny-tiny beams with heels on. Doesn't really explain how she suddenly lost the ability to fly, but there you have it. Apart from being totally cute, though, what I really like about that scene is what it demonstrates about Knuckles: he's willing to save the life of the sort of person who his entire life revolves around stopping. Interesting implications for his relationship with Eggman, amirite? Fanwankfanwankfanwank

Anyway, I agree that we ought to see Rouge's villainous side more often. While I thought her personality was captured pretty well in Chronicles, it always bothered me that the game didn't take advantage of its nature as an RPG to cover her duplicitousness in more detail, maybe making her a recurring minor boss or something. She works just fine as a quasi-hero when it's necessary, but I hope she gets more chances to stretch her legs in the future. I still think she'd make a great villain for a Chaotix spin-off. She's a jewel thief and they're detectives (you want on your side); it's a match made in heaven.

I really do like Rouge; she's one of the most flexible characters in the entire series, aside from Sonic himself. She can handle serious plotlines and ridiculous ones with equal ease, she helps some of the more niche characters fit into stories more easily, her two jobs and sketchy morality give her an excuse to be anywhere at any time... it's almost odd that we've seen so little of her.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's the problem. When you have a plot device being used to have a certain character appear in the story, it feels like an utter cop-out.

How does time travel being secondary for a character automatically feel like a cop-out? It's not like it or the character who time traveled would be there just to be there, but that there's something much more important at hand; something that probably caused or influenced the character to time travel in the first place, but is much bigger than the time traveling itself.

Jak II did just that. While there is a difference being that it was the central character who time traveled rather than a secondary character, but puts it other events that have a much higher priority than getting back to their original time and still makes a good plot. All the things present in it's plot are enough to actually make you forget that the characters had time traveled if it weren't for them showing subtle, but significant clues to bring back your attention that the characters are in the future, and ironically they stay in the future despite being given a chance to do so.

I'm not expecting the Sonic series to take on time traveling the way Jak II handled it, but that Jak II is an example of where time traveling isn't the most significant (almost minor) part of the plot. The idea can't be a cop-out merely of the concept of it alone, it takes some mishandling of that to do so. I know as much as everyone else does that it's quite easy to screw things up with the idea of time-traveling if it's being done because "OMG, it's time travel. COOLZ!" (yeah, I know I was exaggerating, but I'm just trying to make out a point), but it's not like bringing a character from the future to the present would be a cop-out by default if time-travel was made secondary to another event that's going on while still being something of importance to the plot.

Didn't we get a sufficient fill of the lovey-dovey SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK in Heroes?

Oh come on, Heroes was just straight crack right there.

Rouge is a bad guy. If she wants to be credible and interesting she aught to be kicking people in the face rather than falling into a lava pit and need to get rescued.

I wouldn't say she's a bad guy, but more of the neutral. At least I think she needs to be.

Rouge being a member of GUN keeps her from doing any of the more serious acts of villainy unless she is allowed to do those acts in the name of her occupation as a spy, but even then it still counts as heroism due to her reporting it to GUN or the President...

However, GUN itself could serve as a way to bring out more darker aspects of her. The fact that GUN was apparently colorblind enough to mistake another hedgehog for Sonic could show that they're not above taking a renowned hero into custody. It could be guessed that they didn't want the world to know about a agile WMD like Shadow to be running around and were trying to cover their own asses, but them having much more power as an organization than Sonic could in terms of influencing the world could spell out some serious corruption if the military organization was controled by the wrong person. Corruption in the organization hasn't happened yet, well not exactly to the extent I'm making it out, but that's just an interesting route to look at.

Let's not forget that Rouge has morals. That's not to say she won't kick someone in the face, but that she's not going to harm someone just because she can. While she may be neutral, she's less likely to join the forces of evil than someone like Shadow possibly could. She doesn't wield the kind of power that Shadow could, so where as Shadow could just up and decide to blow up a city block for no reason and be treated with caution, Rouge would likely have had a suppression squad come after her to restrain her if she were to do something similar.

Rouge is probably more willing to go that extra mile that other heroes wouldn't, and she wouldn't be looked at too differently that someone like Sonic would were he to do something like that. If she's given a good reason to do so, she'll try her best to eliminate a target for the greater good, and without anything compromising her conscious than it would if Sonic were place in a similar situation.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Remember, Rouge IS a member of GUN. If she was caught doing any major theifing, she'd get fired right on the spot.

If SA2 was anything to go by, she usually asks for her jewels as payment rather than stealing.

While this is true in SA2, I'm inclined to think she's not meant to be inferred as a permanent employee of GUN. Rather she's a freelancer whom GUN occasionally hire when they need someone competent. She's certainly outside the regular chain of command; answering to faceless spymasters in SA2 and '06, but reporting directly to the President of the United Federation in Battle, and directly to the GUN Commander in Chronicles.

Point is, probably they wouldn't care what she does on the times she's not directly on their payroll, so long as she doesn't swipe stuff from a military base.

Irrespective of whether the above assessment is right or not, I maintain that she shouldn't permanently work for GUN. I thing Rouge would be served much better by being a self-interested thief (and competent secondary antagonist) first, while being an occasional 'good'-siding GUN errand girl a distant second.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

She's certainly outside the regular chain of command; answering to faceless spymasters in SA2 and '06, but reporting directly to the President of the United Federation in Battle, and directly to the GUN Commander in Chronicles.

I could've sworn she also reported directly to the President in SA2 as well. You did hear from the president's secretary that they were recieving a message from their agent in the Hero's story right after Sonic and Tails try to trace Eggman's message in the President's limosine, and Rouge was the only agent in the game that was actually made apparent.

Irrespective of whether the above assessment is right or not, I maintain that she shouldn't permanently work for GUN. I thing Rouge would be served much better by being a self-interested thief (and competent secondary antagonist) first, while being an occasional 'good'-siding GUN errand girl a distant second.

That would probably work for her without a doubt. It wouldn't make her anything like a bad guy tho. She would have to do something really serious to be consider that way, and if she did I don't think she would be seen as reliable agent by GUN rather than a threat.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I could've sworn she also reported directly to the President in SA2 as well. You did hear from the president's secretary that they were recieving a message from their agent in the Hero's story right after Sonic and Tails try to trace Eggman's message in the President's limosine, and Rouge was the only agent in the game that was actually made apparent.

You might well be right; it's been 8 years since I played any SA2, so don't take my word for it. =P

That would probably work for her without a doubt. It wouldn't make her anything like a bad guy tho. She would have to do something really serious to be consider that way, and if she did I don't think she would be seen as reliable agent by GUN rather than a threat.

I admittedly don't see her ever taking the role of the MAIN bad guy in any Sonic game; nor torturing puppies to become OMG EVIL. She can be a bad guy in the same way that Nack was a bad guy (lol inevitable Nack / Rouge analogy): just in it for the pay... and maybe not wholly displeased that she gets the added job satisfaction of laying occasional smackdown on the goody-two-shoes heroes.

I guess I'm thinking of spy work here in more of an Alias / Burn Notice kinda way than a James Bond way. I don't see Rouge's employment with GUN as being like James Bond's card-carrying MI6 membership... rather that Rouge is a freelancer, just as happy to accept jobs from GUN in '06 as she is to work for Nega in Rivals 2, providing they pay well.

Let's not forget that Rouge has morals. That's not to say she won't kick someone in the face, but that she's not going to harm someone just because she can. While she may be neutral, she's less likely to join the forces of evil than someone like Shadow possibly could. She doesn't wield the kind of power that Shadow could, so where as Shadow could just up and decide to blow up a city block for no reason and be treated with caution, Rouge would likely have had a suppression squad come after her to restrain her if she were to do something similar.

I'd put the emphasis here on NEUTRAL. So long as the money's good, she'll work for anyone, no matter where they are on the sliding scale of morality. Remember, she was complicit in the explosive murder of a LOT of people on Prison Island in SA2 - and that was when she was on GUN's payroll!

Edited July 5, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Rusty Spy]

Point is, probably they wouldn't care what she does on the times she's not directly on their payroll, so long as she doesn't swipe stuff from a military base.

That wouldn't make much sense. Since they ARE a government organization, they wouldn't think twice about hiring a skilled criminal to work in their forces.

I admittedly don't see her ever taking the role of the MAIN bad guy in any Sonic game; nor torturing puppies to become OMG EVIL. She can be a bad guy in the same way that Nack was a bad guy (lol inevitable Nack / Rouge analogy): just in it for the pay... and maybe not wholly displeased that she gets the added job satisfaction of laying occasional smackdown on the goody-two-shoes heroes.

More like a true Neutral then.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Black Spy

[Frozen Nitrogen]

That wouldn't make much sense. Since they ARE a government organization, they wouldn't think twice about hiring a skilled criminal to work in their forces.

Again, I'm going with the Alias school of spy work here, where allegiences are as fluid as water and the government hires competent criminals all the time, for two reasons:

1) Infiltrators of Rouge's calibre aren't exactly something you find every day. If the government has a job, and they need it done FAST and they need it done RIGHT, I'm sure they'd be inclined to 'forget' a few grand larceny and economic terrorism charges in exchange for her help.

2) If she's working FOR the UF, at least they know where she is and what she's doing. It also means that she's not working for someone else against them. Probably.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I guess I'm thinking of spy work here in more of an Alias / Burn Notice kinda way than a James Bond way. I don't see Rouge's employment with GUN as being like James Bond's card-carrying MI6 membership... rather that Rouge is a freelancer, just as happy to accept jobs from GUN in '06 as she is to work for Nega in Rivals 2, providing they pay well.

I'd see more of her playing favorites for working with GUN or the President. Sure she'll work for whomever pays well, we could assume that since she did work for Nega in Rivals 2 (I haven't really played the game, so I'll just take your word for it), showing more of her freelance status.

However, if called for a mission from GUN, it can be assumed that that'll take absolute priority over every other job that comes at her. It wouldn't be wise to give Rouge that kind of clearance to be under the president or other high ranking officials if they knew she could turn on them at any point someone offers a much greater pay.

I'd put the emphasis here on NEUTRAL. So long as the money's good, she'll work for anyone, no matter where they are on the sliding scale of morality. Remember, she was complicit in the explosive murder of a LOT of people on Prison Island in SA2 - and that was when she was on GUN's payroll!

Neutral with more good intentions at the very least.

It is ironic that she went along with blowing up Prison Island while she was GUN's agent. How she would explain that (if she did tell them) would be something up for question. However, I wouldn't say she's so neutral to work for anyone off of money alone. If GUN didn't have some form of trust in her they wouldn't give her access to any resources or allow her to report to the president. She'd essentially be an equivalent to a low level foot soldier in their ranks, and those usually aren't the kind of guys you would have report to anyone higher than their own commanding officer who then reports it along the chain of command.

Since Rouge works outside of that chain of command, it can be assumed that while neutral, she's more good than bad. If anyone happens to do something to threaten the President, I don't think she would let that person accomplish that task so easy, if at all. Or we could assume that she would find something else as an excuse to avoid doing something like that so that she doesn't have that kind of crime on her shoulders if she was borderline neutral.

Again, I'm going with the Alias school of spy work here, where allegiences are as fluid as water and the government hires competent criminals all the time, for two reasons:

1) Infiltrators of Rouge's calibre aren't exactly something you find every day. If the government has a job, and they need it done FAST and they need it done RIGHT, I'm sure they'd be inclined to 'forget' a few grand larceny and economic terrorism charges in exchange for her help.

2) If she's working FOR the UF, at least they know where she is and what she's doing. It also means that she's not working for someone else against them. Probably.

I think the second one would be a bit more accurate in regards to Rouge. While she did take part in Prison Island's destruction, which would be a serious crime on it's own, it's at the very least they knew she was still working for them the whole time.

If she was to work for someone against the UF, there's a good chance GUN would pick up on that somehow.

Edited July 5, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Since Rouge works outside of that chain of command, it can be assumed that while neutral, she's more good than bad. If anyone happens to do something to threaten the President, I don't think she would let that person accomplish that task so easy, if at all. Or we could assume that she would find something else as an excuse to avoid doing something like that so that she doesn't have that kind of crime on her shoulders if she was borderline neutral.

She's a thief who thrives in the seedy anarchic criminal underworld, so I'll have to disagree with this; I don't think it's in her character to have any love for her paymasters beyond the fact that they pay her.

Indeed, as the highest authorities in the forces of law and order, the President and the GUN Commander are really her natural enemies. The fact that she does work for them at all only goes to prove how shiny shiny gem-based payments are the only thing she's concerned about.

But regardless of whether my assessment of her present character is right or not, I still think that villainy-for-hire would be a better direction for her future character than GUN-patsy is.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Rusty Spy]

I'm with Frozen on that one. Though if she wasn't exactly a GUN officer, then there really wouldn't be anything stopping her from going back to simply robbing jewels. Of course, if she wanted to stay off the wanted signs, an undercover agent would be easier for.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Black Spy

[Blazey Firekitty]

I just thought of something...have we ever seen Rouge stealing anything in the game canon that didn't belong to Knuckles or Robotnik? A mad scientist and a guy who lives out in the middle of nowhere? How do we know if she's technically broken the law?

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I just thought of something...have we ever seen Rouge stealing anything in the game canon that didn't belong to Knuckles or Robotnik? A mad scientist and a guy who lives out in the middle of nowhere? How do we know if she's technically broken the law?

She robs a jewellry store in Emerald Town in broad daylight during Battle.

What makes this significantly worse in my eyes is that she steals Emerl beforehand, after manipulating Sonic and Tails into accidently handing command authority over to her. She then takes the impressionable baby robot into her den of sin and iniquity in Night Carnival, forces him into multiple sparring matches to toughen him up, and then essentially throws him at the jewellry shop window to expedite her robbery.

So she's a child slaver as well as a thief. :/

[Badnik Zero]

ROUGE THE BAT

Rouge is pretty cool. She belonged in SA2, which made her interesting. Today she's not used to her full potential. It seems like a lot of this thread is ways to rid characters of their baggage. Knuckles has the Emerald, Amy has Sonic, Shadow has his past. Knowing what these characters are outside their defining roles helps us better understand them. I think Rouge's baggage is Shadow and Omega. I don't really care much for Team Dark. They come from a game with little plot relevance. And Rouge teamed up with Shadow in SA2 but that doesn't make them life partners. Does she even steal jewels anymore? She needs to do that more.

I think GUN is baggage no character needs. Hi, my super power is I work for the government.

I'm in full agreement with Frozen here. Rouge is better as a freelance agent. It helps reconcile her jewel-coveting with saving the world when she only has real loyalties to herself. I'd also like to know why she follows Shadow everywhere. Her alliance with him and Omega at the start of Heroes was forced at best. Can't we all just get along, now let's go save the world together. This is not the slick anti-Knuckles from SA2 or the snarky bat from Chronicles. Because Team Dark is founded on a premise of suck, it should be disbanded. Her sticky fingers should bring her into conflict with the rest of the cast more often, Knuckles especially.

I'd like to know what happened to her rivalry with Knux. In the RP we did, I mentioned that Rouge made a regular game of testing the Master Emerald security. They really do play off each other well, and her Knuckles teasing scenes in SA2 are some of my favorite moments in the game. She was conceived as an anti-Knuckles just like Shadow was that game's anti-Sonic. It's where she shines and it's been abandoned for the Team Dark thing. Someone mentioned her ability level. In comparison to Knuckles I think she has the most powerful kicks, against his punches. And being a Catwoman type character, probably more agile.

Edit - Post 2100. Super Blackjack, I win.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Phos]

I've never really seen much actual characterization out of Rouge aside from her entitlement complex, she never really seems to do anything that isn't demanded by the plot aside from a few random comments.

What they could do better: Make her unpredictable but knowable, she should have a definite goal that is clear by the end of the story, but that goal should be somewhat independent from everyone else's, she's working for herself to help herself. When she shows up, it shouldn't be a question of whether or not she'll try to use someone, but how, and if can she pull it off. The people she is manipulating would ideally not even realize they are being manipulated until they either wise up or it's too late.

Wait, what am I on about, this is a game about woodland critters vs. an evil scientist.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

She's a thief who thrives in the seedy anarchic criminal underworld, so I'll have to disagree with this; I don't think it's in her character to have any love for her paymasters beyond the fact that they pay her.

Her being a theif doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't have morals or is a bad person altogether. A theif can be either a protagonist or an antagonist, despite being treated on opposite ends of the law by many, and the thief doesn't have to be anything like Robin Hood.

But regardless of whether my assessment of her present character is right or not, I still think that villainy-for-hire would be a better direction for her future character than GUN-patsy is.

I think a more mercenary route would work so as to keep her on a more neutral ground compared to other characters rather than one of villainy.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Her being a theif doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't have morals or is a bad person altogether. A theif can be either a protagonist or an antagonist, despite being treated on opposite ends of the law by many, and the thief doesn't have to be anything like Robin Hood.

I'm not saying she has BAD morals, likes to torture puppies, or would shoot the President in the head just for kicks. I'm saying she's not gonna lift a finger to help anyone unless there's gems in it for her.

Like Black Spy said, she's more of a True Neutral character. Good and evil are of little concern to her, whereas cash IS. I guess I think of Rouge as someone who has no ideals, thereby making her perfectly employable by anyone who does - be they incompetent presidents, hard-ass generals, genius roboticists, or omnicidal maniacs.

I think a more mercenary route would work so as to keep her on a more neutral ground compared to other characters rather than one of villainy.

Yeah, she shouldn't be villainous just for the sake of her own villainy. But after seeing her get hired by the good guys on almost every outing, I'd like to see her fighting on the bad guy's side some more.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm not saying she has BAD morals, likes to torture puppies, or would shoot the President in the head just for kicks. I'm saying she's not gonna lift a finger to help anyone unless there's gems in it for her.

Not even Shadow?

In Sonic 06, she says these words to him:

"Even if you believe the entire world will be against you, remember that I will always remain by your side... Remember that..."

Granted, most of what happened in Sonic 06 was retconned out of existence, but can we really say for sure that Rouge's loyalty to Shadow no longer exists?

[Dejablue]

Lol she could be like Fujiko Mine from Lupin the Third. Only tone down all the sexual manipulation...

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Not even Shadow?

Or Knuckles?

OK, Team Dark is an exception, as these folks are actually her friends (or browbeaten chumps, *cough*Heroes*cough*). Them, she might pull from a pit pro bono.

Anyone else, not so much.

[Phos]

You know, I just realized, I think Rouge has been rescued more times than Amy...

[Dejablue]

I can recall at least 4 separate moments that could be considered rescue.

[Rusty Spy]

I only remember 2 times Rouge was rescued, 3 for Amy.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

You know, I just realized, I think Rouge has been rescued more times than Amy...

My count is:

ROUGE

1. 
   
   
2. SA2: Shads saving from GUN Vault
   
3. SA2: Knux saving from Mad Space lava
   
4. '06: Shadow's mission to White Acropolis (though she actually seemed to be doing OK)
   
5. '06: Shadow's cutscene saving after Kingdom Valley
   
6. Rivals: Shadow saves her from Nega's card-ing
   

AMY

1. 
   
   
2. CD: ALL of CD
   
3. SA1: Rescued by Gamma
   
4. SA2: Runs into Team Dark on Weapons Bed, saved by Tails
   
5. SA2: Hostage'd by Eggman on the ARK, saved by Tails again
   
6. Rivals: Sonic saves her from Nega's card-ing
   
7. Riders: Hostage'd by Eggman at the end, saved by Sonic
   

Amy has MOAR

Edited July 8, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Dejablue]

I forget. Did Shadow save Rouge from the Gun Vault in SA2?

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I forget. Did Shadow save Rouge from the Gun Vault in SA2?

Urite; edited.