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Conquering Storm’s Servant

The Fallen Cast...

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sorry man i posted that attached to a comment in the knuckles convo. and i was just using bean as an example just to show anyone can do the job knuckles does of fighting with sonic

At the very least, try to stay on the subject at hand. That would be much appreciated. ;)

[quote name='Frozen Nitrogen' date='09 July 2010 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1278684399'

post='176874']

Before someone (probably me) exacerbates this trend any worse; can we have the next character, CSS?

It seems this particular well has run dry.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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I like Silver but i kinda wish they could have made him something else than a Hedgehog since we already had 3.

I always thought Silver had a much more rounded off personality in comparison to Sonic's heroishness

and Shadow's quiet badassness. Not to mention he has Telekinetic powers, and that's always cool.

I really don't consider Silver one of "the fallen cast", since as far as I'm concerned,

Silver is still a fairly new character.

It's a shame he has only appeared in one main series game so far.

And seeing what most seem to think of him, we probably won't see him in another main game for some time.

Edited by CrimsonMoonMist

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If this was the DragonBall series, Sonic would be Goku, Shadow would be Vegeta, and Silver would be Trunks...

...um, not like that actually meant anything.

Actually that's kind of a big thing. If I remember right, his profile in the leaked '06 script basically said he's a Trunks ripoff. And I think that's where his problems start...he's not really an original character built for the series, he's a knockoff of an existing character, and not even a particularly good one.

I also think his design is pretty terrible. The pot-leaf head, mostly; I really wish they had gone with the slightly earlier design (first picture here), where his spikes flow backwards when he's not using his powers. The shape of them always looks so bizarre in 3D, too...

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Part of what enamors me about Silver, at least briefly in Sonic 06, is that he's the character with the most moral inhibitions, the most confounded by ethical quandaries, which gives credence to his naïveté when nearly every other character around him is almost-always assured in their moral outlooks, regardless of whether or not their views lead to the right choices.

And to address the elephant over yonder, while Shadow was once prone to switching sides, he did so in a calculatory manner; He never seemed to question his previous positions so much as find them inadequate to achieving his own ends right then. Silver is more personal and empathetic; He stops himself for a brief moment and wonders about the option of sacrificing a minority for the majority.

Further rounding his character is his anxiousness about loneliness. Silver is physically capable of having a successful venture on his own. Regardless, he lacks the self-confidence and maturity necessary for that, as would any normal child would who has to face the trials of his world. He's a really young boy being forced at exponential rates to grow up in a big man's world, so he naturally attaches himself to more confident or dominating female figures like Blaze and Amy in an abstract, subconscious need for a mother figure.

I'd like to further imagine this justifies the more domineering attitude Silver has in games like Rivals. He can be an unwavering asshole when the spotlight's on him, an overbearing bully, but it's probably because he feels he has to be in order to perform as he thinks a leader should. He's small, so in order to get the attention necessary for leading the way, he's got to appear really big to other cast members, and this usually manifests in the form of, "Get out of my way or eat psychokinesis."

Silver's personality has some of the best potential in this series in terms of characterization. His hesistation under moral circumstances is a trait I've not seen in the rest of the Sonic cast, and it makes him relatable across a whole spectrum of audiences and needs to be focused on more. His ignorance, his fears, and his reactionary confrontations almost remind me of the titular Where The Wild Things Are in that the characters are merely just children finding it impossible to maturely resign themselves with painful lessons and harsh circumstances.

Now if only he could get over that hump of being stuck in a damn alternate timeline. :P

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I really don't consider Silver one of "the fallen cast", since as far as I'm concerned,

Silver is still a fairly new character.

Every known character is going to be considered as one of the fallen cast, with few exceptions. Even Blaze will get a mention here, and she's one of those exceptions.

As new as Silver is, he had most of his whole shebang in one game putting him up there with characters like Knuckles and Shadow. Of course I'm never one to spit out simple-minded phrases such as "His story was done in blah blah blah", because that is never true so long as the character is still around. But we can't deny that he has his flaws, be they something about his character or his orgin.

I also think his design is pretty terrible. The pot-leaf head, mostly; I really wish they had gone with the slightly earlier design (first picture here), where his spikes flow backwards when he's not using his powers. The shape of them always looks so bizarre in 3D, too...

I like that design a lot better as well, although it really doesn't matter to me either way it goes. I'm too indifferent to see his current design as terrible. It would have to be a real shaker for me to say how terrible something is. :lol:

Now if only he could get over that hump of being stuck in a damn alternate timeline. :P

I mentioned at least six ways how he could get over that hump. How they're done is where the challenge fun starts. ^_^

-The first has already been given to us, a threat in the present becomes so serious that it ends up being a danger in the future and needs to be stopped at a time before it got so powerful.

-Another is that a villian from his future could escape to the present and try to conquer the world with ease, giving him a reason to come to the present and bring the villian back to the future.

-Another is that someone could end up screwing with the passage of time and end up draging him from the future and into the present.

-Or rather than bring him from the future and to the present, why not bring some of the other characters from the present to the future and trying to find their way back to their own time period.

-Or another idea that could play off the third idea is that you could have all the characters set up a form of global monitoring system that extends throughout certain time periods; if someone ends up causing trouble that might spell problems for any time period, each of the characters involved would be able to track it to prevent it from becoming a problem. This is a really complex one, but I'm confident it could work well if done right.

-Or you could end up having someone fuse the time periods into a newer one and the characters could benefit from the knowledge and capablilities of each others time periods.

Still not an easy hump to get over, but that's half the fun...for me atleast.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Coincidentally, I completly rewrote Silver's wiki article over on Retro the other day; so here's a bit of a cut/paste job for what we know about him:

Silver the Hedgehog (Video Game Character)

Origin of Silver

This world was devastated before I was born. A harsh, bleak place where we live in eternal darkness. Life is a struggle, and people live without hope. How did this happen? No-one will answer me directly. But they always point to the flames.

— (Silver's monologue in his Sonic '06 opening cutscene)

In Sonic '06, Silver lives in a time at least 200 years ahead of Sonic's, where the world has been utterly decimated by Iblis, one of the component consciousnesses of Solaris. Along with his friend Blaze the Cat, Silver is engaged in a never-ending battle against the immortal fire demon, striking Iblis down whenever it manifests to try and at least limit the damage it causes.

At the end of Sonic '06, Solaris is defeated and an in-universe temporal paradox occurs when Princess Elise extinguishes the Flame of Hope, thereby averting the Day of Disaster. Silver's fate becomes confusing here, because his entire timeline is now apparently prevented from ever happening. Since Silver does turn up again in later games, he obviously hasn't been erased from time; but what his origin story is now, after the events of 06, is never addressed. In Sonic Rivals and Sonic Rivals 2 he still comes from "the future" (the same future as Eggman Nega and Onyx Island), but the actual nature of this future is unspecified.

Personality and Traits

Although his impressive powers make him a formidable fighter, Silver can often come across as naive and unsure of himself. In Sonic '06, his debut and most major role, Silver relies heavily on his friend Blaze the Cat for guidance and support - traits which allow him to be manipulated by Mephiles the Dark.

Nevertheless, Silver is committed to making the future he lives in a better and safer place, from prosecuting an endless fight against Iblis to diving into the past when the timeline is threatened. Much like Sonic and Ivo Robotnik, Silver has his own mad scientist archnemesis in the form of Dr. Eggman Nega.

Silver isn't as fast a runner as Sonic or Shadow, but has the ability to fly, at least in cutscenes, using his psychokinetic powers to lift himself. Players of Sonic '06 could use Silver's flight to warp quickly over short distances, and glide slowly over longer ones. Silver can also use the standard Homing Attack, Spin Attack, and Spin Dash in the Rivals games, as well as super transformation in 06. In Sonic Rivals 2, Silver's PK ability is shown to fade with overuse. If it runs out, he becomes physically drained to the point where he can hardly move. The issue is remedied by simply collecting large amounts of rings.

What I really liked about Silver in '06, and what I think really damages him in the Rivals games (aside from the generally uber-shallow characterisation that EVERYONE gets in those) is that he was sort of Blaze's Tails. Their dynamic's sorta wierd, because while Blaze is clearly the duo's "older sibling" in terms of maturity, it seems that Silver's the most powerful one of the two (at least in terms of fighting Iblis; apparently fire vs. fire doesn't quite work in Crisis City). Also, she doesn't treat Silver anything like Sonic treats Tails. There's no unilaterally-running-off-and-expecting-Silver-to-follow; Blaze seems to always let HIM make the decisions, which gives their relationship the paradoxical property of Blaze being the mature one but Silver always deciding what they should do - despite the fact that he never seems to know without Blaze pointing him in the right direction...

BUT ANYWAY, seeing an unsure Tails-like character forced to go fend for himself was nice in '06, which I think is kind of a repetition of Nepenthe's gist.

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words

Yeah, this basically sums up my thoughts one him.

I mentioned at least six ways how he could get over that hump. How they're done is where the challenge fun starts. happy.gif

He could live in the present?

Edited by Black Spy

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He could live in the present?

I considered that, but I felt as though that would almost take away his whole "I'm from the future" trait he has. Which is why I made the last idea that fuses the present and the future into one timeline and it moves from there...but then again, we barely know much about anything from Silver's future that doesn't involve something apocalyptic (or atleast I don't yet)

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I think considering how time travel has been handled in the series, both as a narrative and gameplay device, the series would do itself wonders to stay away from its more complex manifestations. We already have that unmentionable knot in the plot right now as a result of the existence of Silver's dimension. And after the defeat of Solaris, one has to wonder how far that chain stretches until it starts yanking Silver back (as it did in Rivals 2; Seriously, how many times can your home fall prey to some firey god of destruction?).

I personally would love it if there was some feasible way Silver could stuck in the present universe; It'll allow him to get much more screen time without bogging the plot down, and it'll give him the greatest exposure to the cast and subsequently his greatest learning experiences. The big question is how considering the Chaos Emeralds' infinite abilities, although I think CSS' idea about merely fusing the timelines would work the best.

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Silver's interesting... definite props to him for being a non-fast Hedgehog character. Even Amy is shown to have some speedy attributes about her, but Silver just isn't fast... he's sped up a bit in Rivals so he CAN catch up to everyone else, but he's still probably the slowest of all the characters.

Telekinesis is also quite interesting as an ability, its just extremely difficult to really pull off in a Sonic game. Not that its impossible... if it could be properly implemented, like how Sonic '06 tried to, I'm sure it would've been an alright feature.

As a character, I kinda like Silver. I also enjoy his connections with Blaze. I'm definitely looking to see this "plothole" resolved, though. Regardless of this, there's still a lot of characters I far prefer to Silver. He's kind of interesting overall... but the "time travel" gimmick kinda messes with him a lot.

I honestly have to agree with some of the debate before--time travel just messes with things too much. COULD time travel be used in a game and not significantly affect the storyline? Perhaps. The problem, though, is that it wouldn't make much since for Silver to randomly pop up without a good reason that he's in the past. Honestly, I anticipate Silver being trapped in the past at a later point in time.

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I think Silver wasnt needed in the first place. Sega had so many characters to reuse. Plus their already was a dimmension travler/time travler and thats Blaze. Sure Silver adds a huge plot twist and it was cool in 06, as confusing as it was, but i dont think they can really reuse that. Silver only travels to the past to prevent catastrophies, and there are a lot of them in silver's time apparently, and they cant keep adding more catastrophies cause it will begin to not make sense.

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although I think CSS' idea about merely fusing the timelines would work the best.

How exactly DO YOU fuse the present and the future?

Plus their already was a dimmension travler/time travler and thats Blaze.

Yeah, but dimension travel isn't Blazes schtick.

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How exactly DO YOU fuse the present and the future?

My idea would be to get one of the characters to screw up an attempt to use Chaos Control when trying to do...something, and have that screw up combine the present and the future together.

Or anything that involves twisting time and space could work. Solaris was able to exist in the past, present, and future at the same time, so I don't think something that works off of some working of time and space would be too farfetched. Although if mishandled, it can really screw up just about everything in this series...but that nothing another Chaos Control accident couldn't fix. Or would that just make it worse?

Ah, my head hurts!

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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How exactly DO YOU fuse the present and the future?

I actually played with this in a fanfic idea. As people may recall from my crazed rants (or more likely and sensibly, no-one cares), I'm very much not a fan of the Storybook or Rush parallel dimensions and character versions. I want all my settings smushed into a single unified world, not partitioned off beyond dimensional veils and the great wall of TIME - basicly so as to solve problems precisely like Silver's, namely that he can't sensibly appear in a game without the method of his being there necessarily requiring a lot of Chaos Control and exposition.

So my idea is that one CAN simply walk into Mordor other worlds from norma-Mobius/Earth. After multiple fracturings of the Master Emerald AND the Chaos Emeralds; wierd, hyper-energy weapons like the Eclipse Cannon and Unleashed's laser being fired all over the place; the world being LITERALLY fractured into 7 dimensional pieces in Advance 3; Argus and Solaris chowing down on bits of the universe and then getting paradoxed... all in all, the structure of space-time in and around the planet must be royally fucked. So you think you're taking a trip from Green Hill Zone to Westopolis, you end up in Crisis City 200 years later. Take the scenic route while flying the Tornado around South Island, you end up very confused in King Arthur's Camelot.

I don't mean anything so flashy as swirling blue dimensional portals popping up at random that happen to take you to plot-relevant moments (lol '06)... rather, Sonic in the course of his exploring just runs beyond the parts of the world that have already been mapped, and on screeching to a halt goes "Wait a minute, this large tropical ocean I've come to seems familiar... oh shit is that Marine on that boat? WTF?"

And onwards to adventure!

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Sounds like a horrible plot device.

To me, there's no such thing as a horrible plot device, but rather a plot device done horribly.

We could call just about everything a horrible plot device we just dismissed them based off the idea alone. In any case, it's a much simpler way to go about it than how Frozen Nitrogen went about it. Not that his way was bad, but that there's a lot of detail put into it.

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So is Silver's world still a lava crapack?

Anyway, I made a about a hilarious chain of similarities between him and Dio Brando a while back. That thread didn't get many responses at the time, and that's probably because the OP didn't make any sense, but I decided to fix it just now.

Silver himself though, I think he suffers a lot from his only main series appearance being aught six, as a result I can't tell whether on not Sonic Team actually thinks of him as existing or not. I get the idea that Sonic Team thinks of games not made by them in sort of the same way as they might a spin off or something. If he does still exist, well, I don't know if I can really buy into his character. The whole moral conundrum deal kind of falls flat when you realize they're talking about Sonic, who is both blatantly not the cause of what happened and is obviously not going be dead at the end of the game. I think the problem is that Sonic Team tries to deal with themes like these in a more direct manner than their universe allows for. Like I said before, they need to learn some goddamn subtly.

I also don't like Sonic 06's version of time travel, it seems to treat different periods of time as different dimensions.

I personally would love it if there was some feasible way Silver could stuck in the present universe; It'll allow him to get much more screen time without bogging the plot down, and it'll give him the greatest exposure to the cast and subsequently his greatest learning experiences. The big question is how considering the Chaos Emeralds' infinite abilities, although I think CSS' idea about merely fusing the timelines would work the best.

Silver's future, as we saw it in Sonic 06, was basically the same as it was in the game's present day except for everything being on fire. Silver returns to it to find that during the 200 years the future has changed so much that it is now completely foreign to him, it's basically the second biggest culture shock imaginable (The biggest being an outright different planet). He would probably rather live in Sonic's present considering that it's basically the world he lived in apart from not being on fire. Alternatively, We imagine that it follows DBZ time travel rules causing Silver to decide that his world is a lose cause (I think Blaze and him were the only two people still alive at the star of his story) and stays in Sonic's world.

I kind of like his design, but it could definitely use some tweaking.

Being able to move objects and enemies with his mind and even redirect most incoming projectiles in his direction likely makes him one of the most powerful characters in the series.

Everyone can apparently thrash out of it in Multiplayer.

Wait, did Eggman know that Iblis was imprisoned inside of Elise or was he just after the Chaos Emerald? Why did Silver give her that Emerald again? Wait, isn't Elise's father technically an evil genius? How does what he was doing differ from what Eggman was doing?

Edited by Phos

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To me, there's no such thing as a horrible plot device, but rather a plot device done horribly.

We could call just about everything a horrible plot device we just dismissed them based off the idea alone. In any case, it's a much simpler way to go about it than how Frozen Nitrogen went about it. Not that his way was bad, but that there's a lot of detail put into it.

But it's a horrible 90 degree turn from the status quo that only serves to dig deeper into the awfully shallow 'New Power as Plot Demands' coupon and making the universe so far over the border of fanfiction it was shot out of a cannon over it.

I honestly can't see how this convoluted mess of absurdity could be any better than Silver getting the idea that his time period is shit, and he's better off living in the present day.

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But it's a horrible 90 degree turn from the status quo that only serves to dig deeper into the awfully shallow 'New Power as Plot Demands' coupon and making the universe so far over the border of fanfiction it was shot out of a cannon over it.

I think Unleashed sort of already went upon that route with the whole Werehog thing, and somewhat SA2 when Sonic learned Chaos Control after only a few seconds in order to escape the capsule he was in.

In any case, I don't see how screwing up an attempted Chaos Control and messing up the time line in the process falls under that trope, especially considering that Chaos Control isn't a new ability nor is ruining a time period new to this series. Not to mention you're altering the status quo either way you go about it whether you bring just Silver himself into the present, or half of his timeline into the present.

I honestly can't see how this convoluted mess of absurdity could be any better than Silver getting the idea that his time period is shit, and he's better off living in the present day.

Well for one, Silver practically runs off of him being from the future. You would sort of take that unique trait away from him if he were to stay off in the present day, and he'd just be a hedgehog with telekinesis unless you make up a new purpose for him, and I honestly can't think of anything for him to do if he were to just stay in the present.

Another thing is that if you put the timelines into one, you're basically bringing Silver's Future into Sonic's Present (or Sonic's Present to Silver's Future, however you want to go about it) rather than bringing just the character himself from the future to live in the present. In that sense, you maintain Silver's unique trait of being from the future by atleast bringing his own environment with him rather than throwing him into something he's not familiar with and expecting him to just deal with it by living there from now on. It's almost like Knuckles' Floating Island in a sense, but instead of an island it's half a timeline. Just like how Knuckles would get involved if his Island gets caught in whatever mess is going on, Silver would get involved if whatever mess gets involved in his half of the timeline.

But aside from their timelines being right next to each other, not everything changes, and rather than ripping one character from the past or the present and sticking them into something they're not too familiar with, they can still stay around what they're familiar with while exploring something new.

Yeah, I'll admit, the idea sounds like a mess which is why it's just one off the idea's I had in mind rather than it being the only one. It no doubt the hardest to pull off, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to clean up and implement into a plot. If you want an easier way to go about it while keeping hold of Silver being from the future, the 3rd, 4th, and 5ths ones would probably be better, but I don't think all of them are impossible to pull off.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Well for one, Silver practically runs off of him being from the future. You would sort of take that unique trait away from him if he were to stay off in the present day, and he'd just be a hedgehog with telekinesis unless you make up a new purpose for him, and I honestly can't think of anything for him to do if he were to just stay in the present.

Just like Shadow, Silver's initial schtick was merely a plot gimmick that didn't actually help the character's development, but rather hindered it drastically by making this character's defining trait a plot device rather than a trait that's part of the character himself.

Making a character repeat the same plot gimmick over and over will only result in massive flanerization from being the rookie hero trying to save his time period into Time Cop.

and I honestly can't think of anything for him to do if he were to just stay in the present.

Live out the rest of his life helping the heroes battle evil, safe in the knowledge that he didn't waste his life knocking down the Eldritch Abomination of the week in a post apocalyptic time period that's extinct of all life anyway.

That's like asking why would I want to live on the luxurious beaches of Australia when I can be living on Venus constantly battling Cthulhu.

Another thing is that if you put the timelines into one, you're basically bringing Silver's Future into Sonic's Present (or Sonic's Present to Silver's Future, however you want to go about it) rather than bringing just the character himself from the future to live in the present. In that sense, you maintain Silver's unique trait of being from the future by atleast bringing his own environment with him rather than throwing him into something he's not familiar with and expecting him to just deal with it by living there from now on. It's almost like Knuckles' Floating Island in a sense, but instead of an island it's half a timeline. Just like how Knuckles would get involved if his Island gets caught in whatever mess is going on, Silver would get involved if whatever mess gets involved in his half of the timeline.

That's the problem. Your making his future schtick another leash on another character that honestly doesn't benefit him in anyway, and this idea only drags down everything else in it's universe.

Edited by Black Spy

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Making a character repeat the same plot gimmick over and over will only result in massive flanerization from being the rookie hero trying to save his time period into Time Cop.

Then simply don't have that one character repeat the same plot gimmick over and over. It's not like we always have to bring Silver from his future to the present, we could also bring other characters from the present to the future. And it doesn't have to be for one plot and everything goes back to normal in the end, it could span multiple plots as well.

Live out the rest of his life helping the heroes battle evil, safe in the knowledge that he didn't waste his life knocking down the Eldritch Abomination of the week in a post apocalyptic time period that's extinct of all life anyway.

That's like asking why would I want to live on the luxurious beaches of Australia when I can be living on Venus constantly battling Cthulhu.

That's not good enough, and here's why I say that.

To be fair, we don't even know whether or not Silver's future is always in a state of the apocalpyse. He only came to the present to stop such a thing from happening in the first place. For all we know, he could very well be living on the luxurious beaches of Emerald Coast in the future until something ends up causing trouble to that extent. B)

That's the problem. Your making his future schtick another leash on another character that honestly doesn't benefit him in anyway, and this idea only drags down everything else in it's universe.

Why should we throw away something that doesn't benefit him rather than fixing it to where it does benefit him? Making him live in the present from then on could be a problem on the other end in that you made him being from the future completely pointless and you would likely make him a redundant character in the process.

It's like throwing away Knux ME because of that very reason. You're throwing it away because it doesn't work rather than fixing it so that it does work and/or building off of it so it can work for more than what it originally served without throwing away all the things it was made for in the first place.

The reason why I keep his whole future schtick on him is because it's a big part of what makes him unique from the rest of the cast, and likely prevents him from being redundant. Him being from the future is the only thing I'm keeping tied with him, and with that we could work off it it in more than just a few ways other than him coming to the present to save the future. Not only that, but him being future could also allow for the other characters to explore more areas.

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Then simply don't have that one character repeat the same plot gimmick over and over. It's not like we always have to bring Silver from his future to the present, we could also bring other characters from the present to the future. And it doesn't have to be for one plot and everything goes back to normal in the end, it could span multiple plots as well.

Problem is, Silver as a character can't exist without his future schtick if you make it like that. And time as a plot gimmick IN GENERAL as a character's only defining trait is not gonna last long.

To be fair, we don't even know whether or not Silver's future is always in a state of the apocalpyse. He only came to the present to stop such a thing from happening in the first place. For all we know, he could very well be living on the luxurious beaches of Emerald Coast in the future until something ends up causing trouble to that extent. cool.gif

Then there's little reason to involve Silver at all, is there?

Why should we throw away something that doesn't benefit him rather than fixing it to where it does benefit him?

If what your trying to fix is flimsy enough as is, you'll probably do some serious damage in the process.

Making him live in the present from then on could be a problem on the other end in that you made him being from the future completely pointless and you would likely make him a redundant character in the process.

He won't be redundant if he has something about him that makes him stand out from the cast, a Character Defining Trait if you will.

It's like throwing away Knux ME because of that very reason. You're throwing it away because it doesn't work rather than fixing it so that it does work and/or building off of it so it can work for more than what it originally served without throwing away all the things it was made for in the first place.

Not really. Knuckles can easily live with his ME and still be part of the plot because he isn't so closely tied to it. Silver on the other hand can't be in a plot without being connected to the future in some form.

Not only that, but him being future could also allow for the other characters to explore more areas.

If the characters go to the future, then the plot is more focused on the future rather than Silver. It doesn't help Silver as a character, but rather uses Silver as an excuse to go to the future.

Edited by Black Spy

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