The Fallen Cast...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Problem is, Silver as a character can't exist without his future schtick if you make it like that.

Him existing with his whole future schtick is the whole point as to why I would want to make it like that tho.

Then there's little reason to involve Silver at all, is there?

Sure there is. Thinking about ways to involve him is half the fun, while executing it is the other half of it (along with the brainstorming and frustration that's likely to come with it, but as far as I'm aware, that's expected).

If what your trying to fix is flimsy enough as is, you'll probably do some serious damage in the process.

If that's the case, then I'll be careful about it. It's not hard for anyone to realize how fragile a plot can be if time travel gets involved, especially looking at the way Sonic 06 handled it.

He won't be redundant if he has something about him that makes him stand out from the cast, a Character Defining Trait if you will.

Him being from the future may not be the only trait he has among others I've mentioned on my first post on the character. However, there are traits that I think he shouldn't go without and serves as one of the reasons I brought up those ideas in the first place so he doesn't have to throw away what could actually benefit him.

Not really. Knuckles can easily live with his ME and still be part of the plot because he isn't so closely tied to it. Silver on the other hand can't be in a plot without being connected to the future in some form.

In this case, I honestly see no difference in either character as far as how close they're tied to something rather than the fact they ARE tied to something at all being the only thing that I'm interested in. Those two ties each character has is one of the major things that usually get them involved in a plot.

If the characters go to the future, then the plot is more focused on the future rather than Silver. It doesn't help Silver as a character, but rather uses Silver as an excuse to go to the future.

Not really in the case of using Silver as an excuse, it could serve as a way for Silver to get involved in the events at hand.

And as for the plot, it really depends on how you go about making it. A lot of the characters jumped around from the past, present and the future in Sonic 06 during the course of the plot, but that wasn't the focus of the game. Don't get me wrong, the time periods were important, as clearly all the events that were going on took place during the 210 years that this was planned out in the case of the main villain, but which took more focus: the time period or the disaster that everyone was trying to avert?

That being said, the characters going to the future doesn't automatically mean that the future becomes the focus throughout the plot. Like I said once before, time travel can play a secondary role as opposed to being the primary one in a plot.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

There's only so much you can do with the time travel plot before it gets stale.

Those two ties each character has is one of the major things that usually get them involved in a plot.

And essentially makes them a one trick pony.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Black Spy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There's only so much you can do with the time travel plot before it gets stale.

Then let's do as much as we can before it ends up getting stale.

Besides, there's a lot of things we can do so much with before it gets stale. But even so, that shouldn't be something to keep us down should it?

And essentially makes them a one trick pony.

Apparently not seeing as how they've been used more than once, and can possibly have more than one use.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Apparently not seeing as how they've been used more than once, and can possibly have more than one use.

I was talking about the characters, not the plot devices.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I was talking about the characters, not the plot devices.

I was refering to both. It's not like any character or plot device has only one use in this series and they've been given more than what they've originally had.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

I was refering to both. It's not like any character or plot device has only one use in this series and they've been given more than what they've originally had.

Then why do you feel the need for these characters to desperately cling to these plot devices when they have other (read: more flexable) uses in a story?

[Nepenthe]

As a general remark, I'll say that the plot devices or settings associated with many of these characters should serve as nothing but a backdrop, a particular vehicle to showcase the growth and development of these personalities in particular situations. It shouldn't be something that defines them to the point of being overbearing, of becoming all they really are. If all you want to do is showcase a determined kid trying to deal with and halt the apocalypse in some form, then that's all you'll most likely get no matter how much you try to tweak it-- it will just be Sonic '06 over and over again. But if you look at characters as fluid entities capable of growing and adapting, instead of just a checklist of general traits like most of the cast is considered nowadays, then there's a wealth of possibility available. It shouldn't be that Silver would become nothing but another hedgehog with telekinetic powers tacked on if Sonic 06's themes were abolished. That's limited thinking.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Then why do you feel the need for these characters to desperately cling to these plot devices when they have other (read: more flexable) uses in a story?

Well for one, I certainly don't think they should "desperately" cling on to those plot devices despite how much of that impression I may have given you. The reason I feel they should hold on to those things is because they make up a strong part of that character in general. In addition to that, they serve as a means to keep that character from being used just anywhere in a plot, as well as prevent this thought that one character is more valuable to appear over another. So I clamp on these plot devices so that every character aside from the two principle ones have an somewhat of an equal value to each other instead of one being favored over the other. It doesn't matter to me whether it would be my favorite character or my most hated, they're not above each other to me simply because of that.

And second, it's not as if these plot devices dictate how the character should be portrayed in the story OR what the focus of the story is. It serves nothing more as an indicator of who to expect, who is appropriate to be involved or not, and/or who is probably being mishandled in terms of where they are. As far as their uses in a story goes, it could go anywhere the plot takes it, and could very well be as flexible even with those plot devices.

I'm not against more flexible uses in a plot, however, as you know I am against a vague reason for being around, and helping out other character to save the day isn't something I find flexible than it is vague.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Well for one, I certainly don't think they should "desperately" cling on to those plot devices despite how much of that impression I may have given you. The reason I feel they should hold on to those things is because they make up a strong part of that character in general. In addition to that, they serve as a means to keep that character from being used just anywhere in a plot, as well as prevent this thought that one character is more valuable to appear over another. So I clamp on these plot devices so that every character aside from the two principle ones have an somewhat of an equal value to each other instead of one being favored over the other. It doesn't matter to me whether it would be my favorite character or my most hated, they're not above each other to me simply because of that.

But they don't benefit the character, and only serve as a basic checklist of 'things required for character to be in plot'. And as I said earlier, you can only go so far with a single plot device before it gets stale, and tying a character's appearances strictly to that is gonna drag the character down with it.

Not only that, with the character only showing up when said plot device is involved, it could reduce that character's growth and development. If they keep appearing in the (more or less) same scenarios, it gives them little opportunity to see the character in completely new scenarios that give us a view of their personality from a different angle, and further putting them into perspective. SaTBK is a great example of Sonic being thrown in a different scenario which gave us a much deeper look into his character.

It serves nothing more as an indicator of who to expect, who is appropriate to be involved or not, and/or who is probably being mishandled in terms of where they are. As far as their uses in a story goes, it could go anywhere the plot takes it, and could very well be as flexible even with those plot devices.

Like I said above, doing this makes the character's very cut-and-paste and by-the-numbers. What makes for great character building is seeing the character in scenarios that we AREN'T familiar with seeing them in; to experiment with different characters doing different things.

Having the character be chained down by a specific plot device makes them and the story incredibly predictable.

[Dejablue]

I dunno. I kinda regard Silver like I do Chip. He can't come back. His story was more or less resolved. I thought it was kind of weird that we saw no aftermath regarding him. Since his world was in peril you think it'd be nice to show Crisis City restored. But I just assume that after beating Iblis he wen't back to his own time. God time travel messes up my brain. Because if they defeated Iblis then wouldn't Silver loose all memory of what happened? Since technically Iblis is now destroyed meaning he has no reason to go into the past in the firs pla- TIME PARADOX!!!!

Geeze you guys are going really deep into this. I don't even think SA2 took it's writing this seriously. And that game had the best story telling out them all.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Dejablue

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But they don't benefit the character, and only serve as a basic checklist of 'things required for character to be in plot'. And as I said earlier, you can only go so far with a single plot device before it gets stale, and tying a character's appearances strictly to that is gonna drag the character down with it.

It keeps things in order if you ask me.

but in spite of that, how exactly would you go about it then, without him being around just to live in the present and help out the heroes? I haven't heard any other alternatives other than that from you.

Not only that, with the character only showing up when said plot device is involved, it could reduce that character's growth and development. If they keep appearing in the (more or less) same scenarios, it gives them little opportunity to see the character in completely new scenarios that give us a view of their personality from a different angle, and further putting them into perspective.

That's where you're misunderstanding me, because that's exactly what I want out of the characters. I don't want any character to appear in the same scenarios over and over again, but I do want them to grow and develop. With that in mind don't want them to appear for a vague reason, i.e. to save the world like every other character.

I see that in the same sense as shoehorning them. If we can avoid that, we're dandy.

What makes for great character building is seeing the character in scenarios that we AREN'T familiar with seeing them in; to experiment with different characters doing different things.

Dude, I'm not against putting any character in scenarios that we aren't familiar as long as we don't throw away other aspects of the character in the process. I encourage that. But if you're going to ditch those aspects just to have him around, I see a problem.

I mean, give me some ideas you have in mind on how to go about it, and I'll tell you what I think on them.

Having the character be chained down by a specific plot device makes them and the story incredibly predictable.

And I'd argue that throwing away that plot device could cause problems as well.

I'll admit that it may make the character predictable in that you could expect them to appear, but it definitely doesn't make the story he's involved in predictable by default. Silver doesn't always have to come from the future in order to stop a threat in the present, he could be dragged out of the future and into the present by someone screwing around with the time-space continuum and be involved because of that. It's not like the story has to go one way for that one plot device.

His story was more or less resolved.

Okay, honestly, there is no such thing as a character's story being resolved. Period. Why is that the only thing that keeps every other character who gets resolved from coming back? If that was the case Knuckles story has been resolved since S3&K only to be spanned out further in the Adventures.

It shouldn't really matter who's story gets resolved.

Edited July 11, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

Yes stories characters can be resolved. Look at Chip. He's friggin Gaia spirit of the Earth. Sleeping for the next Millenia. Why would he wake up again? Eggman wouldn't try the same plan twice. It'd be an asspull to bring him back. And I think it'd be an asspull to bring Silver back as well. Maybe not as dire but still are we going to do the time travel plot again?

In order to bring him back there needs to be a good reason. A whole new crisis that would need his abilities (specifically) to help resolve. He isn't like Tails whom Sonic can just call and tell him to gas up the Tornado because Eggman is on the loose again. Maybe if Silver was like Zonic from Archie. At least then he has an excuse for being everywhere and anywhere.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

Okay, honestly, there is no such thing as a character's story being resolved. Period.

Now I've got to emphatically disagree with that.

You've seen stories with ends. We see the start of things, the middle of things, and the end of things. The people may survive, but their "story" is over...the book doesn't just continue off infinitely. It's most obvious when it's a standalone story or an entire series that's ending, but it can apply to individual characters as well. Especially so when the characters pop up for only one entry in a series...one game, in this case. Arguably, the only real difference between Tikal and Silver in this respect is that Silver survived.

That's not to say a character has to vanish forever when their story finishes. But they need to find a new story...or be absorbed into someone else's. Knuckles continues to show up largely because he's been absorbed into Sonic's story...Chronicles attempted to give him his own story, but that's a dead end at this point. Amy and Tails don't really have stories of their own (just the occasional bit of spotlight, for things like their development in SA), they're more fixtures of Sonic's. They have attempted, a few times, to give Shadow another story of his own after his original story finished in SA2 (first the amnesia, then the Shadow androids, then the Black Arms, and now some vague stuff with GUN and Team Dark).

So to "fix" Silver, they need to make three decisions. First off, whether they should bother keeping him at all, or to let him fade. Second, whether he should be integrated into Sonic's story or be given a story of his own. Third, in either case, how to go about it.

As for my thoughts, assuming the answer to the first question is to keep him...I think he needs his own story. He doesn't have any particular connection to Sonic; where Tails is "the sidekick" and Amy is "the fangirl", Silver is lucky to manage "the acquaintance" considering the cosmic rewind at the end of '06. If they were to try to integrate him into Sonic's story just based on that, I think they'd run into a lot of the same problems as they have with Knuckles (though without the "blatant shirking of duty" thing...though one could argue keeping his home time safe is his "Master Emerald"). Unfortunately the only thing I can think of for him, unless it's something completely out of left field, is to have him continue playing Time Cop. The problem with that is...it's kind of a one trick pony. As a Time Cop, there aren't many ways for him to cross paths with the rest of the characters outside of going back in time to protect the future, which means he can't be used much without it becoming stale. And if they just go with something out of nowhere, they risk alienating the people that like him while at the same time failing to catch the attention of the people that don't; it's a risky move especially as we aren't usually dealing with brilliant writers in this series. I've got to say, simply leaving Silver behind is a pretty tempting choice.

[Rusty Spy]

but in spite of that, how exactly would you go about it then, without him being around just to live in the present and help out the heroes? I haven't heard any other alternatives other than that from you.

If he isn't living in the present, then any other plot would have to involve some sort of time travel if the characters of the present and future were to interact. And if it delves into that, it makes the plot predictable. "Silver's in it, that means someone's gonna time travel", is essentially what all of the plots with him in it will boil down into.

With that in mind don't want them to appear for a vague reason, i.e. to save the world like every other character.

Then if it's not that, than it's gonna boil down to them appearing because their specific plot device is involved. It's not shoehorning, but it's just as bad; it's redundancy.

Dude, I'm not against putting any character in scenarios that we aren't familiar as long as we don't throw away other aspects of the character in the process. I encourage that. But if you're going to ditch those aspects just to have him around, I see a problem.

I'm not saying we ditch them, I'm saying we don't rely on them.

As for my initial thoughts on the thing, Diogenes and Nepenthe drive my point MUCH better.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Black Spy

[Badnik Zero]

So I've gotta start this by saying I've never really played '06, but I have seen all of Silver's scenes in that game.

SILVER THE HEDGEHOG

Firstly, I think Silver's design is weak as a third heroic hedgehog character, but I realize he's intentionally set up as his future's version of Sonic. I agree with what's been said, that his big issue much like Blaze's is his massive plot baggage of time travel. It would've been easier if Silver was the only character capable of time travel as a power, instead of the gimmicky plot's reliance on chaos control which is just like a plot superglue for so many things, especially in '06. The characters are almost obligated to time travel under these circumstances, since I think time travel is too commanding a plot point. So Silver should be the only one doing it.

Next is the issue of how to bring him into a story with good reason. Most of us consider the time cop thing a nice solution, but the wiki Frozen posted had me thinking. Without getting into alternate timeline shenanigans, what if Silver wasn't one character but was instead a bunch of changing faces? It's a good point that his history is possibly rewritten each time he meddles in the past. He could always be a mission driven character like he was in '06, the time cop, but with a different mission and outlook each time, due to his constantly changing circumstances. He'd be a pretty tripped out character if he was different each appearance.

Anyways, this is my probably bad idea. Nepenthe might not like it because she seems to like the original Silver.

And to Diogenes' points, the difference between Silver and Tikal is that one of them is playable. Playables are easier to get attached to, and Sega probably had plans to continue. Also, I'd say characters should all have major relevance to Sonic's plot, otherwise they should take a walk. At least in game media.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Dabnikz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Look at Chip. He's friggin Gaia spirit of the Earth. Sleeping for the next Millenia. Why would he wake up again? Eggman wouldn't try the same plan twice. It'd be an asspull to bring him back.

Someone could end up cracking the earth apart in their attempt at doing [insert reason]. Not that I would recommend that, but it doesn't have to be Eggman doing the same plan twice than it would be someone cracking it open by accident or whatever.

I'm just throwing ideas out there tho.

In order to bring him back there needs to be a good reason. A whole new crisis that would need his abilities (specifically) to help resolve.

Then that leaves room for him to comeback in some way.

That's not to say a character has to vanish forever when their story finishes. But they need to find a new story...or be absorbed into someone else's.

That's actually the main reason why I don't see it as their story being resolved, because they could end up with a new one where they can continue off of. In that sense, their story continues rather than it ending.

When I hear something about a character's story being resolved, it sounds exactly as if a character has to vanish in the process and not come back. I don't mean to be an asshole to anyone, but that's just how it looks to me.

So to "fix" Silver, they need to make three decisions. First off, whether they should bother keeping him at all, or to let him fade. Second, whether he should be integrated into Sonic's story or be given a story of his own. Third, in either case, how to go about it.

...

I've got to say, simply leaving Silver behind is a pretty tempting choice.

That hard, huh?

I for one don't want to leave any character behind. I'm actually thinking about taking a risk in going with something out of nowhere if that's the case. But that just makes it harder.

Not something I'm willing to give up on tho.

If he isn't living in the present, then any other plot would have to involve some sort of time travel if the characters of the present and future were to interact. And if it delves into that, it makes the plot predictable. "Silver's in it, that means someone's gonna time travel", is essentially what all of the plots with him in it will boil down into.

Then why not bring a part of his future (the good part, assuming that his future isn't in a hellhole) with him to the present from then on? It would have a bit time travel in it, but wouldn't that bypass a lot of the problems from then on afterwards? He'd be able to be in the present, with a part of his future with him at the same time. It isn't as drastic as fusing both timelines into one, but rather taking a piece of one of their timelines and assimilating it into the other. How would that work out?

Then if it's not that, than it's gonna boil down to them appearing because their specific plot device is involved. It's not shoehorning, but it's just as bad; it's redundancy.

Then that's another hurdle we'll have to find a way to get over...

I'm saying we ditch them, I'm saying we don't rely on them.

(You mean "not ditch them", right?)

Well we can find other loopholes to get around them, can't we? It may not be so simple, but we shouldn't let that prevent us from finding other ways.

Edited July 12, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Then why not bring a part of his future (the good part, assuming that his future isn't in a hellhole) with him to the present from then on? It would have a bit time travel in it, but wouldn't that bypass a lot of the problems from then on afterwards? He'd be able to be in the present, with a part of his future with him at the same time. It isn't as drastic as fusing both timelines into one, but rather taking a piece of one of their timelines and assimilating it into the other. How would that work out?

That sounds retardedly pointless.

(You mean "not ditch them", right?)

Oh yeah, bad typo is bad!

[Kamicciolo]

In terms of Silver's role in the series I think its worth remembering that he was (supposedly) designed with the intention of having his own spin-off series (ala Wario or Donkey Kong) after his appearance in Sonic 06. Obviously since that fell through he's just been sorta stuck without a use and left to appear in side-games and spin-offs.

As for what could been done with him now, he could always get some sort of connection with the Little Planet/Time Stones (since both share the time-travel theme and it would be a nice merge/clash of classic and modern ideas), since as said before the whole "I'm here to stop something in the past blah blah blah" sorta takes over the plot (over-running Sonic's side in 06 and having Nega as secret true villian of both Rivals games is proof enough of that).

Design-wise, I have no problem bar the "pot-lead" and actually quite like the how the design of his gloves ties in with his main power. I do think that he can be a bit over-powered compared to the rest of the cast though, but his telekinesis does seem like it could create some interesting gameplay oppurtunities.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That sounds retardedly pointless.

But it practically works off of your idea of bringing him to the present to live from then on. Are you saying him living in the present is pointless as well?

Edited July 12, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

Then why not bring a part of his future (the good part, assuming that his future isn't in a hellhole) with him to the present from then on? It would have a bit time travel in it, but wouldn't that bypass a lot of the problems from then on afterwards? He'd be able to be in the present, with a part of his future with him at the same time. It isn't as drastic as fusing both timelines into one, but rather taking a piece of one of their timelines and assimilating it into the other. How would that work out?

I'm...not even sure how this is supposed to make sense.

Yes living in the present is POINTLESS. He wants to go back home to his time. Otherwise why the hell did he bother saving it?

Edited July 12, 2010 by Dejablue

[Rusty Spy]

But it practically works off of your idea of bringing him to the present to live from then on. Are you saying him living in the present is pointless as well?

No, bringing a small piece of the future to the present is pointless. Does Silver need to pack his camping gear whenever he jumps around time?

[Diogenes]

But it practically works off of your idea of bringing him to the present to live from then on. Are you saying him living in the present is pointless as well?

Tearing spacetime to shreds just so Silver can carry a little piece of his home with him seems way beyond necessary, and beyond believable as well.

Using the Little Planet/Time Stones like Kami said is a bit more plausible, though it's still a bit odd to blend elements of two completely unrelated time travel stories (it's pretty odd to have two completely unrelated time travel stories; the only way it really works is because you can kind of "forget" about CD while you're thinking of '06, and vice versa). Plus I'm not sure of a way to fit it in with Silver's personality; I can imagine a character, say, living on the Little Planet as it bounces back and forth from present to future, but I really can't imagine Silver doing it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, bringing a small piece of the future to the present is pointless. Does Silver need to pack his camping gear whenever he jumps around time?

I was thinking more of a city being brought into the present, not camping gear.

In any case, why not? He wouldn't need to jump around time as often, if at all now that his home is placed as a part of the present and his city would be an icon of the future that he hails from. He's more or less living in the present as a result, but he still has a part of the future with him.

Tearing spacetime to shreds just so Silver can carry a little piece of his home with him seems way beyond necessary, and beyond believable as well.

Even for this series?

I'm not sure of a way to fit it in with Silver's personality; I can imagine a character, say, living on the Little Planet as it bounces back and forth from present to future, but I really can't imagine Silver doing it.

I wasn't planning on Silver to do it, even though he is the main subject here. I was thinking of another character doing it, with Silver living on with the results that come after it.

Edited July 12, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

In any case, why not?

Because it's so utterly pointless!

How is this logically necessary? What's the point? How is this somehow better and more logical than just Silver being in the present?! Why would he need it? Are you worried about Silver leaving the stove on when he goes time traveling!?

I was thinking more of a city being brought into the present, not camping gear.

It was an analogy! =/

Even for this series?

Yes, because it DEFIES logic or purpose.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Black Spy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How is this logically necessary? What's the point? How is this somehow better and more logical than just Silver being in the present?!

Because it's the best of both worlds? This being your idea and mine put together.

It's logically necessary (to me atleast) because I wouldn't see any problem with Silver being around in any plot if that happened. It dodges the problem of Silver relying on time-traveling as the only way for him to appear in a plot from then on and he can still have his own story afterwards and be his own character, but time travel wouldn't have to play any part of who he is anymore if a part of his future was placed into the present, and therefore frees his development from him being a time cop and allowing him to become something more.

The point in doing so would be so that like your idea, he could simply live in the present taking part in whatever he gets involved in within the plot, but also like my idea him being from the future remains a part of who he is regardless of what he does from then on and we wouldn't have to worry about time-travel anymore.

I find it more better than just Silver being in the present because I see it as a loophole in him bypassing the time cop archetype and preventing him from becoming stale while making it easier to develop him without worrying about him being chained to appearances involving time-travel from then on.

Why would he need it? Are you worried about Silver leaving the stove on when he goes time traveling!?

So that he doesn't have to time travel again and he can live on in the present without worrying about the dangers and events going on future that led him to time travel to the present in the first place. He can also be used more often that way afterwards, and he doesn't need to be a time cop anymore.

If the part of his future he was time-traveling to save was made a part of the present, he wouldn't need to worry about the future anymore. And he's forever free of the shackles of time-traveling chained on to him.

Edited July 12, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic