Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Badnik Mechanic]

14 minutes ago, RaginRonic said:

This issue has me really pissed off beyond belief, and the blame lies with one man only....Ken Penders.

 I presume you can prove this is the reason that the comic has been cancelled and explain why Ken Penders is responsible?

 

Assuming it has gone that way.

Seriously I've seen loads of people on twitter and in the comments of TSS blaming Ken yet I've not seen any reason based in fact as to why it's his fault. 

 

[horridus]

Oookay fella, look... I was a big fan of SatAM too, and I still am. But there is no hard evidence to support that Penders actually *deliberately* screwed over Hurst, beyond making educated guesses given his observed behavior and shifty tendancies. I say this as someone who positively loathes Penders, and while this more than likely started because of his actions- due to his past actions possibly influencing the current events even if he directly has done nothing- he is not solely responsible for what may or may not be happening. A large chunk of it has to do with Archie's incredibly poor judgement and handling of its copyrights and contracts, something that they're continuing to do *despite* the Penders fiasco, and may very well be down to SEGA no longer thinking they like the way Archie handles things. There is no singular cause for what is happening, and we aren't going to get any concrete answers until somebody in a position to actually talk about it gives an explanation. 

Otherwise? This really isn't the place to vent about Penders and his actions, and laying the entirety of what has happened at his feet is innappropriate and misinformed. I hate the guy, and I make no bones about it, but this is not the place for THAT discussion. You wanna vent about Penders behavior? There's a thread talking about his current 'project' (I use that term loosely)- there's plenty to be said there, provided you don't make it too personal. We've been written up for getting out of hand there before. Go there, you'll find people willing to talk. This however? This just ain't the place. 

[aquaz]

1 hour ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Stuff from 252 onward, most likely.

Oh you've just made me realize all those unpublished TPB's from after the SGW will be gone forever too! I'm buying a new issue every month, but I love quality of those trades, way they are published (original pencil drawings, concept arts, variant covers, etc) and.. they look good on the shelf.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Speculations continue I see.

Okay let's put my five cents on possible continuity by someone else.

First of all, at least it's good moment to die. Main arc is finished, some threads are loose, but nothing to loose sleep over (I actually most disappointing we didn't seen Woodland Kingsmen, their existence is a fricking schroedinger cat). I will miss Honey, Breezie, Relic, Eclipse, some Egg Bosses, but I don't think I'm as hurt as with Preboot (ELIAS!!!)

I'm sure plenty of fans will try to continue, but I somehow doubt anyone will achieve much. I'm a little temped to suggest reintroducing those characters in Archie Online (Silver can easily travel to Onyx Island, Breezie can takeover Moggul's casino, Eggman can hire new Egg Bosses, there are still ruins for Relic to explore etc). Except redesign and some minor redcons (like Rotor's original father) the only big challenge is Nicole's origin, completely incomputable with old world. But then again, Preboot was character packed as it was, maybe merging it with Reboot would be a disaster.

If any new company takes over, I think they should continue what Flynn did (read: hire Flynn. And Yardley, Skelly, Stanley, where are Bates and Butler, etc). I know starting from the very beginning is temping, but

1 We just started fresh. Are we wanna kill all those plots again (or delay them for 10 years and who knows what will happen then)?

2 Megaman had only Bass as major character that didn't appear, and they still pushed him where they could. I don't want to wait that long for Shadow and others. (Also, that kills possibility for Sonic Universe for first few years)

3 Starting from Sonic 1 would probably mean starting with issue 1, so bye bye longest comic series adaptation.

4 I don't know if you noticed, but I'm SICK of classic adaptations over and over.

[horridus]

And things take a turn for the incredibly bizzare on Comixology, as the release dates for Sonic 291 and Sonic Universe 95 are.... December 27. 

Oh...kaaaay...?

I should also note that as of this typing, the release dates for the physical releases remain unchanged, if still pushed back from their original release dates. 

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, horridus said:

And things take a turn for the incredibly bizzare on Comixology, as the release dates for Sonic 291 and Sonic Universe 95 are.... December 27. 

Oh...kaaaay...?

I should also note that as of this typing, the release dates for the physical releases remain unchanged, if still pushed back from their original release dates. 

Actually, I noticed that a few days ago but didn't say anything. Because it's not uncommon for the digital release date at ComiXology to be inaccurate. The digital comic would still release alongside the print version and only then might ComiXology update the official digital release date.

Of course, I'll let everyone know if I can actually buy Sonic the Hedgehog #291 on the 25th. With everything else going on with Archie that remains to be seen.

[horridus]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

Actually, I noticed that a few days ago but didn't say anything. Because it's not uncommon for the digital release date at ComiXology to be inaccurate. The digital comic would still release alongside the print version and only then might ComiXology update the official digital release date.

 

Of course, I'll let everyone know if I can actually buy Sonic the Hedgehog #291 on the 25th. With everything else going on with Archie that remains to be seen.

That's rather good to know actually cause... December 27th?? That's just insane. 

[Phos]

Would be kind of, let's say, irritating if Sega cancels the comic over a desire for consistent brand identity while also running the concurrent and equally incompatible Sonic Boom, but I guess TV pays more than comics. Also it begs the question, Is there being a classic and modern sonic in every game just the brand identity now? If brand identity is the reason, it just seems like thrashing.

Also has me wondering if the endgame is to replace the normal comic with Mega Drive. 

[Kintor]

Just now, horridus said:

That's rather good to know actually cause... December 27th?? That's just insane. 

Well, I could be wrong but I think that December 27 is probably the latest possible placeholder date that a publisher could input into ComiXology's system. Hundreds of comics get added to ComiXology every week and it's largely left up to the individual publishers to keep all their information accurate. This is why I'm inclined to believe the digital release date doesn't actually mean anything.

Still, that doesn't discount the lack of subscriptions on Archie's website. Which is a separate matter entirely.

[horridus]

True. I'm just saying though, given the release dates for the physical copies that are presented, that it is nice to know that the super late date for the Comixology release (if it's happening) evidently isn't going to be that late. Given all the other weird and inconsistent things that have been happening, it's nice to know there probably isn't *another* layer of insanity at work with regards to this whole mess. 

[Arranos]

All I can say is this: I'm gonna give it some time.

If it does end, then so be it.

If it doesn't end, then yay for us.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't want to give anyone false hope but... is it possible this is just Archie facing winter? Like last year, with the delays and all.

[Your Vest Friend]

I don't want to give anyone false hope but... is it possible this is just Archie facing winter? Like last year, with the delays and all.

Unlikely. Not only is the time too late to be attributed to winter (last year the problems began December 2015 aka when the Winter period started), it'd be very bad for business if a printing press broke every year for a quarter of a year (press print malfunction was the specific cause last year).

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Speculations continue I see.

Okay let's put my five cents on possible continuity by someone else.

First of all, at least it's good moment to die. Main arc is finished, some threads are loose, but nothing to loose sleep over (I actually most disappointing we didn't seen Woodland Kingsmen, their existence is a fricking schroedinger cat). I will miss Honey, Breezie, Relic, Eclipse, some Egg Bosses, but I don't think I'm as hurt as with Preboot (ELIAS!!!)

 

I dissagree.

If wish for me to fully expand on my opinions , we can talk. 

But from the reboot to now, it would have been one of the largest collections of failed story telling I have seen in quite a while, and it would have been a very large example of folks not understanding what is and isn't important and what people do and don't care about and dedicating entirely too much time to the wrong things. 

I don't say this out of malice, I think Ian is cool. I'm sure he's nice guy in real life, donates to all the good stuff.

But, if the book ends like right now, The reboot was a complete and utter failure. And that pains me, because I know Ian can write circles around everyone who came before him. But to judge it, its a complete failure of story telling on multiple levels. 

I hope the book isn't cancelled , so it may continue. Actually improve and some stories find closure, and Ian's legacy on this book can be greater than " he was pretty good at character dialogue maybe " 

[Borvoc]

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

If any new company takes over, I think they should continue what Flynn did (read: hire Flynn. And Yardley, Skelly, Stanley, where are Bates and Butler, etc). I know starting from the very beginning is temping, but:

[...]

4 I don't know if you noticed, but I'm SICK of classic adaptations over and over.

Agreed. The current team has done a fantastic job on the comics, and a bird in the hand, etc. I think it'd be much easier to strike out with a new team than to hit a home run, and the current team has shown to be consistent in their quality output.

As a fan of both the Genesis and Dreamcast / Gamecube eras, I'm also getting tired of how "Classic" Sonic seems to be getting top billing recently. A Genesis-era Sonic is great when you do him right, but I wouldn't want him to replace "Modern" Sonic. I'm also not fond of how they seem to be treated as separate characters.

[Inkarnate]

5 hours ago, Mayor D said:

 I presume you can prove this is the reason that the comic has been cancelled and explain why Ken Penders is responsible?

Assuming it has gone that way.

Seriously I've seen loads of people on twitter and in the comments of TSS blaming Ken yet I've not seen any reason based in fact as to why it's his fault. 

 

I can see where the resentment is coming from— if the rumors are true this is all ultimately a domino effect that has occurred due to the fallout of the legal issues that are one-hundred percent the fault of Ken Penders. But if the Archie publications are to end here, I would also put blame on SEGA for increasing the costs related to their contract with Archie and the mandates they enforced due to the result of the aforementioned lawsuits. In 2016, Archie has been in a tough situation and looking back at the history of all of the debacles and animosity I can see why people are jumping to the conclusion they are.

Ken Penders did not push a magic button in January that resulted in this potential result, but he certainly laid the foundation.

 

[CleverSonicUsername]

2 minutes ago, Sen said:

I can see where the resentment is coming from— if the rumors are true this is all ultimately a domino effect that has occurred due to the fallout of the legal issues that are one-hundred percent the fault of Ken Penders. But if the Archie publications are to end here, I would also put blame on SEGA for increasing the costs related to their contract with Archie and the mandates they enforced due to the result of the aforementioned lawsuits. In 2016, Archie has been in a tough situation and looking back at the history of all of the debacles and animosity I can see why people are jumping to the conclusion they are.

Ken Penders did not push a magic button in January that resulted in this potential result, but he certainly laid the foundation.

 

I'll agree Penders did a considerable amount of harm, not just financially but in terms of SEGA's relationship with Archie and what they're willing to tolerate. However, I believe Archie shares some of the blame. If they did have contracts with Penders and other contributors, they should have done a better job holding onto them. Penders is a real shitbird for perusing things to the extent he did, but Archie certainly provided him an avenue.

If the comic is indeed cancelled, Penders is not solely at fault. In fact, he may very well not be at fault period. It all depends on the exact reason the book is folding, which we may never get.

[Inkarnate]

1 minute ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I'll agree Penders did a considerable amount of harm, not just financially but in terms of SEGA's relationship with Archie and what they're willing to tolerate. However, I believe Archie shares some of the blame. If they did have contracts with Penders and other contributors, they should have done a better job holding onto them. Penders is a real shitbird for perusing things to the extent he did, but Archie certainly provided him an avenue.

If the comic is indeed cancelled, Penders is not solely at fault. In fact, he may very well not be at fault period. It all depends on the exact reason the book is folding, which we may never get.

Archie should’ve done better than “we lost old contracts in a fire, lol”, I agree. But I think we fundamentally disagree on the amount of blame that is to be put on Penders— at this point he is a writer that isn’t trying to get creative urgency and liberty but simply win out of spite. This is really surprising to me, to see one of my writing influences and heroes to turn into such a nasty, vindictive, and selfish artist; but that is a conversation for another time. 

If Penders had not been so greedy and selfish, he would’ve let things be years ago; and we would not be here today.
 

[CleverSonicUsername]

8 minutes ago, Sen said:

Archie should’ve done better than “we lost old contracts in a fire, lol”, I agree. But I think we fundamentally disagree on the amount of blame that is to be put on Penders— at this point he is a writer that isn’t trying to get creative urgency and liberty but simply win out of spite. This is really surprising to me, to see one of my writing influences and heroes to turn into such a nasty, vindictive, and selfish artist; but that is a conversation for another time. 

If Penders had not been so greedy and selfish, he would’ve let things be years ago.
 

No, I don't think we disagree there. I also firmly believe Penders is petty and acted out of spite against a party he believes slighted him. All I'm saying is, Archie's sloppy management put them in a position where Penders was able to make a case. Penders could have totally elected to take the high road and not get involved, say "hey I had a good run" and bow out with dignity. He made his choice and a bunch of people paid for it, the lion's share is on him.

However, I don't think any of us could say just how much fault rests with him in terms of a full on cancellation, that's heavily dependent on the reasons why, and I seriously doubt Archie would share that.

[Inkarnate]

Just now, CleverSonicUsername said:

No, I don't think we disagree there. I also firmly believe Penders is petty and acted out of spite against a party he believes slighted him. All I'm saying is, Archie's sloppy management put them in a position where Penders was able to make a case. Penders could have totally elected to take the high road and not get involved, say "hey I had a good run" and bow out with dignity. He made his choice and a bunch of people paid for it, the lion's share is on him.

 

In terms of the guilty parties I would say the order of operations falls on “Ken Penders >> SEGA >> Archie”, from most guilty to least guilty— though I will not claim Archie Comics is innocent in the grand scheme of things; even if I thought they were innocent of this result I would still think they are incompetent and naïve when it came to the threat of Penders’ sins.

[Meta77]

No I still think I they restart then get rid of all Archie characters. Stick to game characters. It's a chance to start fresh. No need to add characters anymore not in games or future ones but do keep bark and honey.

[doctorbenMD]

It's most likely stemming/originating from the Penders lawsuit and SEGA viewing Archie as a liability, and Archie not wanting to "fight back" because of 1. money, and 2. they don't want bad press right now right before they air their new show. It's absolutely a multifactorial thing. 

[Inkarnate]

4 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

No I still think I they restart then get rid of all Archie characters. Stick to game characters. It's a chance to start fresh. No need to add characters anymore not in games or future ones but do keep bark and honey.

I happen to like the comic continuity's side characters, though. An extended universe needs those dynamic characters and supporting cast.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I dissagree.

If wish for me to fully expand on my opinions , we can talk. 

But from the reboot to now, it would have been one of the largest collections of failed story telling I have seen in quite a while, and it would have been a very large example of folks not understanding what is and isn't important and what people do and don't care about and dedicating entirely too much time to the wrong things. 

I don't say this out of malice, I think Ian is cool. I'm sure he's nice guy in real life, donates to all the good stuff.

But, if the book ends like right now, The reboot was a complete and utter failure. And that pains me, because I know Ian can write circles around everyone who came before him. But to judge it, its a complete failure of story telling on multiple levels. 

I hope the book isn't cancelled , so it may continue. Actually improve and some stories find closure, and Ian's legacy on this book can be greater than " he was pretty good at character dialogue maybe " 

So you think Reboot sucks, yet you want it to continue? Ok, I kinda get it.

Still, what I'm saying is "I prefer for comic to die NOW, rather then in any previous moment or in the middle of new story arc". Obviously comic NOT dying would be best option.

[Meta77]

Sega has a huge universe as it is with plenty of characters to use. I grew up with the Archie characters but 30+ characters not including sonic and the game is a clustered mess that way others can get more story time