Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[BlueSky]

"The Slap" was overreacting but I also blame the shock effect for that to happen in the first place (in-universe speaking). It's like what person would normally do under same kind of pressure like (normal reaction)². It was overdramatic yes, but I can see why it happened, we can still ponder about the need for it though, storywise speaking.

I think Mr. Flynn was trying to do some slow development with Sally's and Sonic's relationship, just compare the stuff from just before the "Knothole got destroyed" part to just before Sally got roboticized. It wasn't that slow but I think it was slow enough. I didn't feel too rushed/showed in my face with it, actually I'm not even that certain was it never meant to be anything more than to make Sonic feel more devastated about the roboticization incident storywise. for the record, there's really only one ship I sail and that's not this one.

And it's always so "nice" to see people comparing pears with oranges; if one speaks for the comics and other speaks for different media interpretations (also) that's bound to cause some drama. It's a bit sad though. One way to avoid it could possibly be to try to talk about the context of reference with the other party as well before getting too excited over stuff, I wonder... But then again, I suppose it doesn't really sit too well in Internet forum talk now does it?

And I'm not trying to patronise, I just wonder how there wouldn't be that much agitation with being on the same wavelength. Then again;

Quote

I could be wrong so wrong/ I could be wrong so wrong,/ I could be wrong// I don't know, but it's been said/ Decisions travel far from heart to head/ Maybe, maybe/

And here I'm again quoting a-ha, one of my 80's favourites... That's "Maybe, Maybe" for you guys. It's just golden this song.

[RictalRose0]

Yeah but the comic made it to be like Sally was totally in the right for doing that while Sonic was all wrong. There would have been a lot less negative reaction to it if it had been fair to both and adressed they both did wrong, instead of just trying to justify Sally and stuff.

[Big Panda]

I'm looking at the Sonic stuff available at the Archie Shop, and I'm a bit perplexed/concerned that both Mega Drive issues (even the larger-sized Next Level) are going for a dollar cheaper than the ongoing issues.

[BlueSky]

I recall Sally admitting at some point that she overreacted, but then again...

One can also use this to think of Sonic being mature and well-behaving mobian gentleman (if he was?) by taking the most blame thus being a "better" person than some would give him credit for. Or not, I don't know if this would apply well to this situation at all. For me it seemed as they were both sorry and well beyond ready to make amends and maybe even more.  Sally just always got interrupted with any boy she had interest on before anything really happened... like bomb and Nicole...

1 minute ago, Ernest-Panda said:

I'm looking at the Sonic stuff available at the Archie Shop, and I'm a bit perplexed/concerned that both Mega Drive issues (even the larger-sized Next Level) are going for a dollar cheaper than the ongoing issues.

I dunno, they're usually selling stuff cheaper after some time has passed from publishing date, especially when it comes to the app. Then again, what do I know, It's usually more usual for GN's and such get lower prices than single issues if I recall it right...

Maybe Archie had a different license for Classic Sonic that got and expired before Megadrive and GoaH got to the end and Sega isn't too keen to give them more time for them to get out? I dunno, all of this is just so bizarre...

[RictalRose0]

 

21 minutes ago, BlueSky said:

For me it seemed as they were both sorry and well beyond ready to make amends and maybe even more

yeah but only one of them apologized so...

21 minutes ago, BlueSky said:

Maybe Archie had a different license for Classic Sonic that got and expired before Megadrive and GoaH got to the end and Sega isn't too keen to give them more time for them to get out? I dunno, all of this is just so bizarre...

Yeah but like, Sega was the one pushing all the classic stuff.Like this

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, RictalRose0 said:

I don't know about that. The Sonic fanbase is know for looking back at old things and saying "you know in retrospective this sucked" or "in retrospective this wasn't so bad" and I really doubt Penders's comics would have been the later.

I wasn't arguing that they'd be seen as good, just that the criticism wouldn't br as venomous as it is now due to Penders not helping his case.

At best, they'd be seen as lackluster over time.

[RictalRose0]

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you but, you're painting a pretty reasonable and chill image of the fanbase. And we all know how "heaven or hell" it all gets down here. We wouldn't be shitting on the man all the time, but that's mostly because he would be a loner that actually keeps to himself if that were the case.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

31 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you but, you're painting a pretty reasonable and chill image of the fanbase. And we all know how "heaven or hell" it all gets down here. We wouldn't be shitting on the man all the time, but that's mostly because he would be a loner that actually keeps to himself if that were the case.

Well that's if you're going by the entire fandom, including those who don't bother with the comics.

Typically, the comic fandom is a lot more easygoing and flexible compared to other factions. At least prior to the reboot, but even then it's not as fiery.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

9 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

What's sad in Penders's case is that had he not been a dick over this entire matter (despite Archie's poor handling as well), he wouldn't be looked at with such venom whenever his name is mentioned, many of his works would have been looked at less harshly than they are now, and for all his flaws he would have been seen in a much better light.

 

8 hours ago, RictalRose0 said:

I don't know about that. The Sonic fanbase is know for looking back at old things and saying "you know in retrospective this sucked" or "in retrospective this wasn't so bad" and I really doubt Penders's comics would have been the later.

I think some leniency might be granted if it were at least believed he was doing what he did with good intentions.

"At least he tried..." can gain some positivity, but I don't think many believe Penders really tried much at all for the comic as much as himself now.

5 hours ago, Borvoc said:

I'm still not sure Sally being a perfect princess is so much favoritism as it's just her character. Ian also describes Sonic as a hero who always has the best comeback at the ready. It'd be silly for Ian to introduce flaws to Sally's character just to bring her down a peg. They would have to develop on their own for her to struggle with as a natural process of a story. I don't think characters have to be more or less perfect depending on how much you like them.

Yeah, it sounds like what you'd find on a file card, a perceived notion of a character, rather than a literal "she's perfect" sort of thing. Sort of like how Super Sonic is "invincible," unless you drop a big rock on him.

5 hours ago, RictalRose0 said:

But she literally isn't. And that was never the point of her character. She's a leader, she's a rebel. That's it. She's got tons of flaws, almost all characters in the series sans children have them. It's just that the narrative never really acknowledges them because the author itself doesn't want to.

And it's really jarring because when Flynn took over Sally was in a really bad place narratively speaking. She was insufferable. But Flynn took her and basically changed everything about her so people would like her more, but he changed her without first making her develop from what Bollers made her, it's like she just got replaced. Which granted is what every writer does when they direct the narrative. Bollers pretty much threw out all the characterization Penders wrote as well. But anyway what he did with Sally kinda worked on some ways and backfired in some others. It's a mixed bag. Then again, put any female in a pedestal and a spotlight and there's bound to be a mixed reception. People are a lot more judgamental and aggresive to "Mary Sues" that they are to "Gary Stus".

That was admittedly a messy period of getting the house in order, but Sally didn't seem like a different person to me so much as more like her old self, i.e. pre-"character mangling because she should be dead because we don't know what to do with her unless we change some chromosomes around."

[Shadowlax]

 

6 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I wasn't arguing that they'd be seen as good, just that the criticism wouldn't br as venomous as it is now due to Penders not helping his case.

At best, they'd be seen as lackluster over time.

The comic produced some of the worst content in the history of sonic. 

I say this having played through sonic 06 and ROL multiple times. 

So nah

[MetalSkulkBane]

11 hours ago, Borvoc said:

I like this story. And thanks for breaking up into periods. As someone without much experience in most of those eras, I find the overview quite helpful. I notice you gloss over the reboot though. Does that not mark the beginning of an era for you, or is it just too soon?

No problem, I like making things like this. I could go in more detail, but I didn't wanted to bore anyone (and avoid spoiler in case you decide to read them).

Considering that Flynn wrote for over 130 issues, he probably needs periods of his own, although it's a bit trickier, since he's one person.

160-177 was him 'cleaning up'. He closed XYL, reformed Shadow, fixed number of Chaos Emeralds. Many short stories that were suppose to "put things right". Constantly something was happening, which was pretty cool, although almost every story was a bit rushed. Also, Yardley debuted in the same issue. Comics went from this to this this in one issue.

Since then I would say Flynn tried to check how long stories he can get away with. After "Eggman Empire" 3-parter, there was 5-part Return of Enerjack (which arguably can be considered last 'cleaning' act as it took care of Pender's echidnas), 8-part "Brand  New Moebius", 12-part "Iron Dominium" and we never learned how long "Mecha Sally" would be. None of those 'arcs' were perfect, but they focused on Sonic and his friends, action, fun, with wee bit of emotional stuff, so what else could we want? (Maybe some originality. Scourge, Finitevus, Shard, all popular 'creation' by Flynn, were actually made by other writers, he just kinda remade them.)

But as you might know, "Mecha Sally" was really controversial for some reason. I mean, yeah, there were complains before. On Fiona being Out of Character, on Charmy forced into games personality in worst way possible, on Scourge getting to much screen time. but from what I seen "Mecha Sally" really opened a complain train and I don't really know why. It was obvious that this is temporary status quo, and it had good moments. Issue 234 actually made me shear a tear.

And then was Worlds Collide (which everyone loves, but not me) and Reboot (with Worlds Unite inside, which no one loves including me). Since a lot of baggage was thrown away everything is even 'gamier'. All designs are in Sonic style, classic badniks are everywhere, Sega characters don't have parents now (aside Cream I guess). It has it's appeal, but word sometimes feels a bit... bare.

To put it simply: between 175 and 200 Sonic fought Eggman, Enerjack, Scourge, Moggul and few smaller foes.

Between 252 and 287 Sonic fought Eggman, Eggman robots, Eggman Egg Bosses and Dark Gaia Monster (property not by Eggman). Only exception was "Championship", were we could see unique opponents.

[Mr. Armstrong]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

The comic produced some of the worst content in the history of sonic. 

I say this having played through sonic 06 and ROL multiple times. 

So nah

Neither in the worst years of the comic can be compared to the garbage that produced Sonic Team and Sega things like 06 and shadow the hedgehog almost killed the franchise and then opened the wound again with boom.

 

 

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Armstrong said:

Neither in the worst years of the comic can be compared to the garbage that produced Sonic Team and Sega things like 06 and shadow the hedgehog almost killed the franchise and then opened the wound again with boom.

 

 

It can, its worse. 

The only reason it isn't brought up, is because there are a bunch of people who aren't familiar with the comic books. But if some of that shit was gameplots? Christ. 

Also... I know you seem to be set in your ways, but if you a lot of those games thematically aren't bad. There are elements that need to be removed, like elise and real guns, but a lot of the issues with those games are that they are technical messes. You take elise out and make a better game, all you have is a sonic game with an awkward ass story. 

But the sexist ass fiona arc, it can't rely on things like gameplay, its a story, and its pure shit. Same for the future arc, I am exceedingly glad the comics are of limited interest. Because of those stories got out, I feel like those things being prominent would have a much more negative effect than the plot of shadow the hedgehog or sonic 06. Also it didn't kill the franchise? If it would have killed the franchise... it would have killed the franchise , the only thing that almost killed the franchise and that is the direct result of sonic boom ROL is sega rushing sonic games out. 

I don't think being seen by more people, makes a thing worse. 

One more day being read by more people doesn't make it worse than avengers #200 , which is... god just google it. Everyone shits on one more day, the clone saga, famous bad comic arcs, but just because avengers 200# faded into the ether and criticism of that book and criticism of that book only bother to pick up now doesn't mean its not worse, no its strait up worse. 

I personally can derive joy out of those two bad sonic games. Those two comic arcs make me upset.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Mr. Armstrong said:

Neither in the worst years of the comic can be compared to the garbage that produced Sonic Team and Sega things like 06 and shadow the hedgehog almost killed the franchise and then opened the wound again with boom.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The comic produced some of the worst content in the history of sonic. 

I say this having played through sonic 06 and ROL multiple times. 

So nah

I'm not sure if it's fair to compere the two. For starters Archie could  make story about Natzi Sonic and it wouldn't make the same impact as any video game,

Secondly, one is a story, other is (mostly) a gameplay. Might as well compare them to burnt meat or sitting in one desk with that one kid who keeps biting his nails, no matter how many times you ask him to stop.

[Shadowlax]

Well it would. Sega would be under some fire, espically nowadays if sonic had been shown in an official licensed approved capacity to support nazi's. That would be a bad time for sega and they would never live it down. Donald duck was in a cartoon, shitting on nazi's and he still can't like it down. And he was making fun of them. So that

But two

To try and compare how feel people about bad game play vs a bad comic book is hard, yes. But I stand firm in belief that that shit is the worst.. Sonic 06 , RoL, Shadow depending on who you talk to, some people think that game is ok it falls under what i'm about to say. Those games are campy in their badness, they are bad, but its like a bad movie with bad effects, you are yucking it up you go back to it with friends to have a giggle. 

I feel those comic book arcs are disgusting. That's much different worse kind of bad. See with the games, I feel like to improve the games we've talked about a lot of the issue is being rushed and doing too much. Slow it down, think about these games more and don't rush them and I feel like you can make good versions of the games, heck I think shadow isn't even bad its just ok. But yeah, you have to remove somethings, but the essence of what the people making those games were trying to do would stay intact. 

Those comics? The sexism, bad story telling,bad drama  and general tactlessness of handling the inappropriately mature subjects they introduced , along with the issue of introducing them entirely , those things are so tied to the nature of those books. Unfortunately . To remove those things, would literally change or remove the story as it exist. And if the fix button for a piece of media is " make a new thing entirely" I think that is the lesser piece of media. 

 

[Mr. Armstrong]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

It can, its worse. 

The only reason it isn't brought up, is because there are a bunch of people who aren't familiar with the comic books. But if some of that shit was gameplots? Christ. 

Also... I know you seem to be set in your ways, but if you a lot of those games thematically aren't bad. There are elements that need to be removed, like elise and real guns, but a lot of the issues with those games are that they are technical messes. You take elise out and make a better game, all you have is a sonic game with an awkward ass story. 

But the sexist ass fiona arc, it can't rely on things like gameplay, its a story, and its pure shit. Same for the future arc, I am exceedingly glad the comics are of limited interest. Because of those stories got out, I feel like those things being prominent would have a much more negative effect than the plot of shadow the hedgehog or sonic 06. Also it didn't kill the franchise? If it would have killed the franchise... it would have killed the franchise , the only thing that almost killed the franchise and that is the direct result of sonic boom ROL is sega rushing sonic games out. 

I don't think being seen by more people, makes a thing worse. 

One more day being read by more people doesn't make it worse than avengers #200 , which is... god just google it. Everyone shits on one more day, the clone saga, famous bad comic arcs, but just because avengers 200# faded into the ether and criticism of that book and criticism of that book only bother to pick up now doesn't mean its not worse, no its strait up worse. 

I personally can derive joy out of those two bad sonic games. Those two comic arcs make me upset.

I'm sorry to tell you but not neither the furry melodrama of Penders can compete with the garbage that Sega has produced over the years, even if the comics were more popular I doubt too much that affect the franchise because is a spin off the people would not take it as seriously as it does with games.

On the other hand I do not bother so much the "sexist ass fiona arc" or other trash of the comic contains I prefer that to see Sonic committing acts of bestiality or Shadow using weapons to draw the attention of the edgelords, that people outside of the fanbase think that Sonic is a joke is the fault of Sega not Archie fault.

Well I go to sleep they are already more than 3 A.M

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Mr. Armstrong said:

I'm sorry to tell you but not neither the furry melodrama of Penders can compete with the garbage that Sega has produced over the years, even if the comics were more popular I doubt too much that affect the franchise because is a spin off the people would not take it as seriously as it does with games.

On the other hand I do not bother so much the "sexist ass fiona arc" or other trash of the comic contains I prefer that to see Sonic committing acts of bestiality or Shadow using weapons to draw the attention of the edgelords, that people outside of the fanbase think that Sonic is a joke is the fault of Sega not Archie fault.

 

Well I go to sleep they are already more than 3 A.M

There are worse things in the comic than those. I don't think just because someone jokes about something makes it worse actuality. My ability to crack jokes at shadow murdering his entire family in the span of like... 2 days doesn't make shadow anyways better or worse. I don't decide what I like or dislike based on what people joke about it, there are people who talk hot shit about everything past classic , sa2 is one my favorite games. 

So I don't think that's an argument. 

I think those stories, are the worst things sonic has had to his name. And I think they would turn heads if people knew about them. Because they are legitimately disgusting. On Multiple levels. The things in sonic games I can call gross are far and in between, and usually aspects rather than the whole game. Those arcs, books ect. Are gross. I

[Tylinos]

Yes, the games are always going to have more impact than the comics ever will.  But that doesn't mean the comics can't produce things so awful that they can make you long for even the worst of the games in comparison.

For instance, I'd personally rather deal with some of the stupidest parts of Sonic 06 again, over seeing more of...well...

 

 

DESTINY

 

[Shadowlax]

The internet will never let me forget buff super human tails

[Volphied]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The internet will never let me forget buff super human tails

[NikoS]

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Comics went from this to this this in one issue.

it's incredible how i've seen this comparison like a thousand times but it keeps impressing me, from water to wine

[BlueSky]

Aaallright, it's all loose again in here isn't it? It's all pears and oranges yet again... sheesh...

Firstly, I don't think either of the said elements (games & comics) are nuclear waste type of uncleanable mess. I happen to like some parts of those comics and I'm also interested in some elements those games delivered. Maybe I'm just a childish idiot who'll eat up anything if it feeds my imagination in any way possible but I think this way.

Still I'm in favour of the comics since I can go on with the story even if I suck with some types of games, let alone broken games. Then again, there's Youtube and all.

My point being, comics are an easier media for me, possibly because my gaming thing started around my early teens because of reasons. Comics on the other hand have been around me pretty much always, so of course I'm a bit biased. Though there's some stuff that makes my head hurt when I try to read it, so well, maybe I'm not too biased after all...

So, I'd like to ask a question for all that are interested in doing some self-reflecting; which one you grew up with and how you think it affects in your opinion around this matter? Or were both as strongly included in your youth?

And well... I think I actually love myself some bedtime reading of this so-called "dark era" and it's nearby located stories... go figure, I like to "hmf" to them due to the fact one can't start laughing out loud too loud after 10pm. And I laugh very loudly. Yes, there's points, both artistic and script, that make me feel to make a good loud facedesk, but still, I tend to calm myself down by thinking; would I be any better? Yeah, they're (supposedly) paid professionals, but still, I'd like to first have a power behind my words before going around pointing fingers at people and say they do a lousier job than 5-year-old child. This I've learned in my short life in this cold country. I dunno about the other population of the planet Earth though. 

[Borvoc]

@MetalSkulkBane I am hereby merging both of your posts into a Word document to be kept on my computer for furture use. If I ever go back and read the old issues, it will be nice to know what to expect during certain eras or where to start to skip all the silly, jokey, early stuff. Someone should really ask Ian on the Bumblecase how long the Mecha Sally story was planned to be. I'm kind of curious now.

I'm sort of a contrarian by nature, so I can tend to take the less popular opinion by default. Nonetheless, for everyone arguing about the bad Sonic games and bad comics, I think some of the issues with the bad games are meme-ified beyond what's fair.

Shadow the Hedgehog piggybacked off of the Heroes engine, which is where it got it's slippery controls. Shadow being able to use guns was an interesting idea, like mixing Sonic with a bit of Ratchet and Clank, but it would have perhaps been better to focus on his speed and chaos powers and to tighten the controls to make them as similar as possible to those of SA2. They should have also made some mechanic so you couldn't accidentally hurt or kill your allies depending on what mission/route/allignment you were choosing. The story is really campy and the overall presentation is ham-fisted--especially that GUN commander, whatever his name is, who talks like a five-year-old and seems to have the maturity to match. Having Shadow say "Damn" all the time also seemed misguided and off. Still, there's a game under there that's enjoyable, and I'd give it a solid C.

Sonic '06 was trying to continue the gameplay and action-adventure feel of the, ahem, Adventure games, but its story fell flat when it tried to base itself around a weak character who was forced into the center of the plot. Redesign her physical appearance and nudge her to the side, restoring focus to the main cast and removing the awkward romance-teasing--or just remove her entirely, and the game is already improved. Shadow's and Silver's stories were quite passable or even good, so give Sonic something to do aside from prancing around being the world's sappiest boyfriend to the world's most passive, chicken-legged (not body-shaming here; I feel like her design draws a lot of weird attention to her skinny legs, and I can't put my finger on it; maybe just me), female human, and you've got a good story. Then you have to fix the gameplay by actually finishing it. What we got feels like a beta, but there's the makings of greatness there. Unfortunately, it wasn't finished, so no one liked it, so Sega overreacted and threw the baby out with the bath water, deciding it was somehow the Adventure formula that everyone disliked as opposed to the bad story and unfinished gameplay.

Sonic Boom is a whole different animal/furry/Mobian/Whatever-Sonic-is, as it wasn't really even made by Sega but was instead the result of licensing and executive mandates, being force to release on a console other than the one it was built for. As such, its design was amateur and overly-modified to be more "Western". Its failure is no one person's or one company's fault but is instead a result of all their powers combined--a good "None of us is as dumb as all of us" situation. It's really its own thing and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the main Sonic games.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

shadow murdering his entire family in the span of like... 2 days

Please tell me this isn't a thing.

@BlueSky I grew up mostly with the games, which is why I tend to like the more recent comics that are more like the games. They seem to have more action and adventure without getting bogged down in melodrama. That is my bias, but I did also watch the SatAM cartoon a bit as a kid, and I feel I understand the appeal of the more SatAM-styled eras of the comic.

[BlueSky]

11 minutes ago, Borvoc said:

Sonic '06 was trying to continue the gameplay and action-adventure feel of the, ahem, Adventure games, but its story fell flat when it tried to base itself around a weak character who was forced into the center of the plot. Redesign her physical appearance and nudge her to the side, restoring focus to the main cast and removing the awkward romance-teasing--or just remove her entirely, and the game is already improved. Shadow's and Silver's stories were quite passable or even good, so give Sonic something to do aside from prancing around being the world's sappiest boyfriend to the world's most passive, chicken-legged (not body-shaming here; I feel like her design draws a lot of weird attention to her skinny legs, and I can't put my finger on it; maybe just me), female human, and you've got a good story. Then you have to fix the gameplay by actually finishing it. What we got feels like a beta, but there's the makings of greatness there. Unfortunately, it wasn't finished, so no one liked it, so Sega overreacted and threw the baby out with the bath water, deciding it was somehow the Adventure formula that everyone disliked as opposed to the bad story and unfinished gameplay.

Sonic Boom is a whole different animal/furry/Mobian/Whatever-Sonic-is, as it wasn't really even made by Sega but was instead the result of licensing and executive mandates, being force to release on a console other than the one it was built for. As such, its design was amateur and overly-modified to be more "Western". Its failure is no one person's or one company's fault but is instead a result of all their powers combined--a good "None of us is as dumb as all of us" situation. It's really its own thing and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the main Sonic games.

Please tell me this isn't a thing.

Elise's legs feeling too attention-seeking would be because of the fact of what kind of dress she's wearing. For me that kind of short "skirt-part" thingies always feel that way, they seem to show legs in a different way than if the "shirt-part" is bigger but it's still about as long by total measure. Could be just me though.

The only thing I can think of Shadow killing his kin is the fact he's partly alien because of that DNA-thing. It could be a reference for something else too, I suppose. I don't really know.

12 minutes ago, Borvoc said:

I grew up mostly with the games, which is why I tend to like the more recent comics that are more like the games. They seem to have more action and adventure without getting bogged down in melodrama. That is my bias, but I did also watch the SatAM cartoon a bit as a kid, and I feel I understand the appeal of the more SatAM-styled eras of the comic.

Yeah, that would fit, I suppose (since I'm by no means any kind of psychologist, I had one obligatory course of it in high school and that's that), considering the small details I remember from SatAM it wasn't that melodramatic. Mostly it's relationship stuff was around the "friend-chemistry" and the chemistry between Sally and Sonic.

Only really melodramatic one was probably Robotnik since he seemed to have a knack on performing pretty melodramatically in some points, if I can recall the general feeling right. So well, go figure, I just got curious after I performed some self-studying myself. Nice someone else got interested in it.

[RictalRose0]

I don't think cartoons like Satam and such hold up that well to me now tbh. It's not really the kind of thing that is "timeless" or "ages well". I used to love a lot of shows as a kid, but going back to watch them again is a pain. Funny enough I think AoSTH holds up much better that SatAM and Underground. But comedy, nonsensical and absurd shows like that are far easier to digest for me.