Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Badnik Zero]

Not even Enerjak or Dimitri, you read the whole series Turbo? Honestly since her introduction I've felt Lien-Da was a flat and pretty typically dominatrix-roled character. Easily one of my least favorite of Penders' major creations.

[turbojet]

I completely forgot about Dimitri. I liked Lien-Da because her interaction with Eggman, if for nothing else. He character had a lot of potential there and we saw some of it in the last issue. Maybe that is just me.

[Badnik Zero]

I don't think it's just you there seems to be a lot of love for Lien-Da, but I wonder if it's because she's a woman with a whip. She's very much a chaotic evil type, ambitious psychopath type, which is just too straightforward for me to be interesting. Dimitri, the original Legion granddaddy, with his reformed extremist position (which may or may not have been a ploy) had much more potential for me. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else who feels like Ms. queen bitch Echidna over here is a washed out cookie cutter archetype. Also on Penders, I know I'm supposed to hate the man and everything he ever created, but as a fan of most of KtE, I've missed the whole Echidna rivalry for a while now. Again apologies to the Sega canon fans, but the techno-fetish Legion was the shit when I was 12.

 

Also again on Elias... Penders created Elias, he debuted in an issue of KtE. You guys think he's toast or what?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I completely forgot about Dimitri. I liked Lien-Da because her interaction with Eggman, if for nothing else. He character had a lot of potential there and we saw some of it in the last issue. Maybe that is just me.

Dude, we must be brothers or something, because I like Lien-Da too.

 

I'd actually be pissed off if she gets taken out of the comics because of what's going on.

 

As for the other echidnas aside from her and Dimitri/Enerjak, I didn't so much as hate them rather than I just didn't care much about them. I did kinda like the whole Dark Legion thing that went on, if only out of me reading the KtE series when I was younger.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

I didn't like Lien-Da.

 

Maybe it was because I saw her type of character A LOT in roleplaying games, maybe it's her existence as a pretty stereotypical female character, the way her eyes were always open at half-mast gave her that gave her that look that I despise in art, she seemed to hold her eyes like that a lot but then again that seemed to be the style of the artist. I didn't like her, even when reading through most of her appearances and why she exists, her whole "ruthless femme-fatale who cares only for herself" is a very general aspect that builds a mary-sue's stepping stones in a story that gets so bloody repetitive in an attempt to create a "strong, female character who can take care of herself".

 

Sorry, maybe I've read too much fiction or been in too many roleplaying games, I just see her type of character so sickenly much that I can't even comprehend her as a 'good character'.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

her whole "ruthless femme-fatale who cares only for herself" is a very general aspect that builds a mary-sue's stepping stones in a story that gets so bloody repetitive in an attempt to create a "strong, female character who can take care of herself".

Okay, not sure about how and whether or not to rip apart everything else you said yet, but you are seriously misusing the term "mary sue" here when describing Lien-Da, even if it's a stepping stone of any sort. A mary sue wouldn't get a bomb in her cybernetics detonated because she tried to backstab the Iron Queen after the Dominion fell apart, and she wouldn't have had to struggle through all the plans she previously did before becoming a full-time Grandmaster of her Legion as she always wanted like the time the DL went through a civil war before Knuckles became Enerjak, nor would she have felt second-rate through all the other power grabs she's made. A mary sue, by definition and usage, is flawless, but Lien-Da has been anything but flawless throughout her appearances.

 

Really, this just makes me think it's high time we stopped using the word "mary sue". If anything's being overused, it's that bloody term.

 

 

Sorry, maybe I've read too much fiction or been in too many roleplaying games, I just see her type of character so sickenly much that I can't even comprehend her as a 'good character'.

You could say that for damn near any other character, trait, personality, or archetype (and don't even get me started on THAT literary term) out there. We've seen goofy heroes, card-carrying villains, evil overlords, damsel's-in-distress, tomboys, badasses, femme-fatales, messiahs, and a shopping list of plenty of other things out there I could put down that everyone should be sick of seeing at this day and age.

 

But the frequency anyone sees them shouldn't have anything to do with how good or bad a character is.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

Ehh, can't say you're helping me become convinced about her.

 

You can't convince people by acting in your face aggressive about a character you like, aren't you supposed to try and convince me why I shouldn't dislike her rather than saying "you're wrong for calling her this because the term is overused".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ehh, can't say you're helping me become convinced about her.

 

You can't convince people by acting in your face aggressive about a character you like, aren't you supposed to try and convince me why I shouldn't dislike her rather than saying "you're wrong for calling her this because the term is overused".

No actually, 'cuz the thing is I don't really mind you disliking her. That's not what I was setting out to do anyway since there wasn't much I could use to convince you at the moment. Despite the way I come across, so long as you're not flat out bashing characters (and this is regardless of whether I like them or not), I encourage criticism from the other side. I just provide a different view from the opposite and ensure you keep that in mind when you talk about them

 

That doesn't mean I won't correct you when you are misusing (or overusing) a term when you're criticizing said characters or being somewhat superficial with the criticism.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

It's more that everything I've seen about her screams 'obviously' whenever something happens to her, but the lightning powers annoyed me in her last appearance. I thought it was somewhat okay before that happened, then I gave up on her. It just felt as if they were throwing in the tragic stuff to not make her seem like such an obvious evil female character, I guess she just felt like a wicked witch in a Dorothy suit to me. My last statement wasn't even bashing her, more stating why I didn't like her as a character. She just felt like she was designed by a feminist...then again, this is Penders, isn't it?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's more that everything I've seen about her screams 'obviously' whenever something happens to her, but the lightning powers annoyed me in her last appearance. I thought it was somewhat okay before that happened, then I gave up on her. It just felt as if they were throwing in the tragic stuff to not make her seem like such an obvious evil female character, I guess she just felt like a wicked witch in a Dorothy suit to me. 

...I liked the lighting.

 

Anyway, I fail to see how they were making her tragic at all. Barring her appearance in some of the Mobius 30 Years later - and sometimes even then - everything she did from the first time she was introduced (okay, I'm definitely stretching that since I've never seen her first appearance) to her current appearance was definitely her being a evil, greedy, manipulative bitch. I find it hard to see anything tragic in a character who betrays her grandfather to take control of their faction of the Legion when the latter was in control to keep his people safe. And to add to that, she installed a control chip that made it impossible for her faction to ignore her commands.

 

Now if I'm missing something, do tell, but I'm seeing a VERY obviously evil female character here.

 

My last statement wasn't even bashing her, more stating why I didn't like her as a character. She just felt like she was designed by a feminist...then again, this is Penders, isn't it?

Your last statement was basically saying that you've seen her type so many times that you can't call her a good character. Frequency does not a bad (or good) character make.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

Now if I'm missing something, do tell, but I'm seeing a VERY obviously evil female character here.

 

Yeah, she's obvious. She's very obvious.

 

Don't take that I'm only quoting this part as dismissing your entire post, I just don't think I can answer it without getting right to the point. She's a very obvious evil female character.

[SuperLink]

A bit of a tangent I know but there's nothing wrong with a female character being designed and/or written by a feminist. If anything I believe every female character should be designed and/or written by a feminist. (I don't just mean any old feminist obviously I mean a feminist who can write well)

[Mogtaki]

A bit of a tangent I know but there's nothing wrong with a female character being designed and/or written by a feminist. If anything I believe every female character should be designed and/or written by a feminist. (I don't just mean any old feminist obviously I mean a feminist who can write well)

 

I don't think so, they're a bit of a hate group. Females get annoyed at them because they make us look completely stupid sometimes.

[SuperLink]

I don't think so, they're a bit of a hate group. Females get annoyed at them because they make us look completely stupid sometimes.

That's a bit of a generalisation, I know the kind of feminist you mean but imo that's just a kind of feminist that gives feminism a bad name.

 

A feminist is technically anyone who wants true equality and would actively try to bring that about, if a writer is passionate about writing interesting female characters without inherently playing male characters above them, that writer is pretty much feminist and that's a good thing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, she's obvious. She's very obvious.

 

Don't take that I'm only quoting this part as dismissing your entire post, I just don't think I can answer it without getting right to the point. She's a very obvious evil female character.

Eh. I don't see the problem with being obvious at least compared to all the other obvious things in the comics.

 

 

A bit of a tangent I know but there's nothing wrong with a female character being designed and/or written by a feminist. If anything I believe every female character should be designed and/or written by a feminist. (I don't just mean any old feminist obviously I mean a feminist who can write well)

And it's worth keeping in mind that there are different types of feminists, just like there are different types of christians. Being made by one is not in itself a good or bad thing.

 

 

I don't think so, they're a bit of a hate group. Females get annoyed at them because they make us look completely stupid sometimes.

I'm sorry, but if that's what you think then I have to say that you have absolutely no clue about feminism as a whole.

 

Yes, there are some hateful misandrists and hateful attitudes in feminism, but not all feminists are hateful. I had to learn that the hard way after thinking the same thing many years ago. It's like religion, not every religious person is a hateful bigot, now are they?

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Your Vest Friend]

Penders a feminist?

 

Best joke I've heard all day. 

[Mogtaki]

I'm going to need some girls to support the idea that feminists are irritating. Christians are also irritating a lot of the time*cough*.

 

Penders a feminist?

 

Best joke I've heard all day. 

 

Why thank you.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm going to need some girls to support the idea that feminists are irritating. 

I'd really rather you stop generalizing a whole group when said group is very large and diverse to the point where everyone brings their own experiences and prejudices into the movement. Like any ideal, there is a good when used benevolently and a bad when carried to extremes.

 

Feminists are as irritating as people are assholes; not every feminist is irritating, and not everyone is an asshole.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperLink]

I'm going to need some girls to support the idea that feminists are irritating. Christians are also irritating a lot of the time*cough*.

Yer missin' the point, I'm not saying that all feminists are amazing and lovely, but you're saying that all feminists are irritating or feminism as a whole is irritating. You're looking at some irritating people in a large diverse group that mostly aren't irritating at all.

 

All I was pointing out is that ya there are annoying feminists but you probably just haven't come across many people who are also feminist who are extremely reasonable and sound.

I'd consider myself a feminist, I'm not saying I'm not annoying that's up to you guys to decide, but yeah.

 

Also I'd be very surprised if Penders was a feminist, if only because most of his female characters are awful and usually only there so [insert male character] has a "mate".

Edited January 2, 2013 by SuperLink

[Mogtaki]

It's funny how this has moved onto feminism and all the men are getting annoyed at it. It's very strange for an Archie comic discussion...

 

Anyway, back to the point, I don't like her and I won't miss her, kind of like I won't miss a lot of Penders' character because they all echo 'Penders' whenever I see them.

 

I didn't mine Enerjak too much...probably because he screwed people over with his William Striker thing about him, didn't mind Dimitri too much but his motives sometimes confused me.

 

Edit: Oh, sorry SuperLink, I didn't get an alert that there was a new post and made it appear like I ignored you :/

Edited January 2, 2013 by Mogtaki

[SuperLink]

It's funny how this has moved onto feminism and all the men are getting annoyed at it. It's very strange for an Archie comic discussion...

 

Anyway, back to the point, I don't like her and I won't miss her, kind of like I won't miss a lot of Penders' character because they all echo 'Penders' whenever I see them.

 

I didn't mine Enerjak too much...probably because he screwed people over with his William Striker thing about him, didn't mind Dimitri too much but his motives sometimes confused me.

It was a bit of a digression on my part oops, I just wanted to clear something up/make a general opinion I had about writing fictional women which would also apply to Archie.

Lien-da was one of the only Penders characters I kinda liked but I won't miss her too much either way. Enerjak I always thought was too "fanmade superduper villain" though he is interesting.

 

Edit: Oh, sorry SuperLink, I didn't get an alert that there was a new post and made it appear like I ignored you :/

No worries! Edited January 2, 2013 by SuperLink

[leemour84]

You guys think that with all the Echidna's gone that theyll pave the way for the Nocturnus Clan to be featured more often?

[SuperLink]

You guys think that with all the Echidna's gone that theyll pave the way for the Nocturnus Clan to be featured more often?

I hope so, though it's possible that would also depend on how Penders' case against SEGA and EA went.

[Mogtaki]

I guess Penders would have had to go up against Bioware for them as well though, since they did make the game as well and all.

[Spin Attaxx]

Yeah, Shade is a pretty obvious Julie Su expy.

 

(Also this topic has reached Arceus number of pages)