Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[The Tenth Doctor]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Personally I would  prefer not having any FF teams at all (but since we have Shamar FF and Chun-Nan FF, then I guess it's too late). Avatar Aang, Samurai Jack, Thundercats, Secret Saturdays, to certain degree Doctor Who. Those are shows about "super hero' traveling around the globe fighting evil, and they didn't meet guy who did their job there. That's what made hero important.

Just adding onto @ChaosSupremeSonic here, the Doctor doesn't really count either. He has UNIT, past companions and local resistances help him a lot of the time.

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

 Avatar had the Kyoshi Warriors, Jet's gang, and the Order of the White Lotus

If I recall correctly Kyoshi defend only their own village, they weren't actively opposing Fire Nation. Jet was special case, while White Lotus is secret organization, not local group of hero. I'm not saying those examples don't count, it just... how to phrase it.

Ok, obviously Main Hero can have Local Heroes, I mean Games Sonic already has Chaotix, etc. But giving every continent it's own team is overkill. It feels less like "I have cool idea for a character, people will be so exited every time he returns" and more like obligation for god knows why. It's like mum forcing you to invite that smelly kid to your birthday.

Not the most recent example, but remember when Flynn wrote any story with Arctic FF? Replace them with random citizen that tells Sonic what's up and tell me what changed? All I see is more pages to use for Sonic, Silver and Knothole FF. Downunda FF in SU 9-12 weren't that much useful either, like "Knuckles teams up with Finitevus" couldn't hold the story on it's own. (I guess they helped introduce Trash a bit more smoothly).

[Your Vest Friend]

The Chaotix don't count as a local hero team though. They're paid to investigate stuff, and they don't care whether that means helping in busting the baddie at the end, keeping away from the heroics or even working on behalf of the baddies on occasion (so long as it doesn't run into illegal or unjust territory). 

[KoDaiko]

 I'm pasting my past post cuz I'm lazy...

Quote

I can't think of a way how the several freedom fighters that were introduced (damn I can't even remember their names) will have a role in the future. I won't be surprised if they're just there for world building and we never see them again aside from being briefly mentioned or used as a prop for the more important characters. 

What concerns me about the many of the "local" fighters is that unlike the Main FF who travel around the world in a aircraft, they probably won't be involved in the plot or the main characters unless the event happened at their land. And we don't even know if said land will ever be mentioned again. Maybe like an year worth of issues later if lucky.  And as MetalSkulkBane said, Ian is increasing the cast with some traits to be counted as a character, but not giving them enough traits to distinguish themselves unique from one another. They're not much interesting in character to me yet because they're all pretty similar and not developed enough, and if they can't make an appearance frequently it's going to be even more difficult for me to like them.

And maybe that's the point, to be a minor character that only appear once a year, but then I can't help but question "do you even need this character(s)" "do you even need them to be FFs"....The Chun-nan guys could've just been guardians of a shrine/temple for the Phoenix, and the Desert Raiders could've been a small resistance group unrelated to the FF...They can still be against Eggman, be or don't be an alley to the main FF, not much concern if not seen frequently, and most importantly be unique and not be "oh hey, another Freedom Fighter."  But they're freedom fighters, uninteresting or not, and we expect them to appear and contribute to the story a lot.

 If they were going to do another FF group, they should've done one group ("group" as in more than five members) or as ThatGuy said one or two main character who supervise several continents and travel around like the main FF...they can be unique and may interact with the main group anytime like the Chaotix and the Hooligans. But Archie probably didn't do that because they don't want their original characters to take too much focus away from the main guys. 

[SBR2]

I still don't understand why more Freedom Fighter groups is a problem. Should only Sonic and his friends be fighting Eggman? I mean that works in the games but Comics Eggman is more of a wide scale threat.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Spoiler

I gotta say, I love Archie Sonic's world building.

[Sonictrainer]

What's everyone's opinion about the Shamar group?

[Your Vest Friend]

Yasmine should get involved with it at some point. It'd be interesting to see how they could keep the secret with an eager supporter wanting them to go the whole way and stop Nephthys.

[AngelSlayerN64]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I still don't understand why more Freedom Fighter groups is a problem. Should only Sonic and his friends be fighting Eggman? I mean that works in the games but Comics Eggman is more of a wide scale threat.

To quote Eggman himself:

"You know what they say...the more, the merrier!"

Having more Freedom Fighter teams makes for a more intriguing and meaningful conflict overall.

[ThatGuy]

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I still don't understand why more Freedom Fighter groups is a problem. Should only Sonic and his friends be fighting Eggman? I mean that works in the games but Comics Eggman is more of a wide scale threat.

There's nothing wrong with having different people fighting Eggman for their own reasons. The issue is the way they're handled; i.e. 'Here's Rama the Rooster, Lama the Lemur, Ding-Dong the Marmot and Colin (a dachshund). They're the 'Botnik Booty Busters, remember them, they'll be important later (maybe). In the meantime here's an info dump on each of them.'

Really the issue is a dilution of focus, which is something this comic can't afford at ten pages a story. A better way would be to introduce one or two named characters, and concentrate on building them into interesting characters, or even just have them come and go but make a good mark. I don't know, it worked when Judge Dredd crossed the Cursed Earth to pull a comparison to something I've (re)read recently. The focus was on Dredd and his crew, they meet various people along the way, some return in later stories and one even follows them, the latter getting more backstory and empathy as a result. While the one-shots, though not widely remembered, still made enough of an impression at the time, and felt unique and fun. Now people will have differing opinions on what makes a character good or not which is all fine. However the way so many new characters form or fit into similar team structures as the FFs, a, makes the FFs feel less special, and b, just gets repetitive. Honey for instance is a fashionista and a fighter, she doesn't conform to most of the other characters in terms of her outlook and as a result she's interesting. Likewise with Breezie you have a mogul, not an outright villain but a more unique character.

[KoDaiko]

2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I still don't understand why more Freedom Fighter groups is a problem. Should only Sonic and his friends be fighting Eggman? I mean that works in the games but Comics Eggman is more of a wide scale threat.

Never said Sonic and friends should be the only one fighting. I did said I am tired of having all the characters labeled as "freedom fighters" and introduced in a similar if not same pattern. You can have characters opposing and fighting Eggman without being another Freedom Fighter. You can have them not part of a huge justice group already and have the same or more interesting interactions.

Example:

Spoiler

• FF go somewhere, meet character(s) they don't know, mistake each other as enemy, fight. Later find out they are local resistance (group) unknown to FF because they are too local & not registered as a FF. They befriend and depart
• Similar situation as above, but FF fail to earn their trust. The locals hate Eggman and resist his force, but don't like FF either---basically Desert Raider minus Neph and more openly hostile. 
• FF go somewhere, meet local authority/force. Local don't see FF good enough, and dismiss their offer to help. Eggman attack, they need help, FF prove worthy.
• Opposite situation as above, where local want to help FF but FF don't think they're strong enough. Attack, help, prove, given the job to protect region.
• FF go somewhere, meet friendly locals (not resistance group) who help on finding something. Eggman attack, FF tell them to evacuate but they take care of the enemy just fine much to FF's surprise.
• FF and Eggman force fight in an area, third force living in area are upset over both and beat them up. Eggman is forced to retreat, while FF is forced to question their objective/method.

 

[Heckboy]

Universe 85 preview pages:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articles/exclusive-preview-sonic-universe-85/1100-155526/

[MetalSkulkBane]

What people above said: other groups can exist somewhere off panel, but once they in book, they steal time from other characters. If they were interesting characters like Honey or Relic that wouldn't be a problem. One problem: they aren't.

My guess is that Flynn purposely makes them blander than heroes, not wanting to create characters like Geoffrey or Mina: a "fan characters" that really take screen time from main cast. And that's fair concern, but those teams are so bland it goes opposite direction, to the point where they just feel like waste of time. So far I feel that 281-282 will be like this, but best example are Arctic FF in 247 and 215-126. You could remove then and nothing of value would be lost.

Also calling every group Freedom Fighters just feels boring.

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

What's everyone's opinion about the Shamar group?

From all new groups they are probably the best ones, since their alliance with Nephthys is unique and has potential for interesting stories. But as individuals they there, bland personalities, nice powers (I wonder if Dulcy FF have powers), and "eh" designs.

[Sonictrainer]

29 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Universe 85 preview pages:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articles/exclusive-preview-sonic-universe-85/1100-155526/

 

-I like Eggman riding the Emerald Hill Drill Car.

-I like Abyss's crystal thing

[Kuzu]

I feel like the pattern of introducing so many characters has indeed worn thin; it was interesting when we didn't know much about the world at hand, and we were just getting reintroduced, but now it feels like we're just going through the motions. "Oh, here's this group of Freedom Fighters of the day to help out heroes" Its not so much the idea that there shouldn't more groups of Freedom Fighters, but that not enough screentime is devoted to them to make us care about them as individuals beyond a few token flashbacks. 

And that's more because the plot just keeps jumping from location to location in an attempt to get the Gaia keys, so the characterization just really suffers. Its most noticeable with Chip, who I feel has not had much focus despite this arc adapting the game where he's the central focus. Its going to make when he ultimately departs at the end feel extremely hollow because not enough time I feel was spent on developing his relationship with the main characters to get invested in that departure.

If that is one flaw I have with Flynn's writing, is that I don't feel he does plotting anywhere near as well as he does characterization; that's why most arcs just kinda fall flat for me despite the potential for an interesting premise. When things  are more focused on characters and their interactions with each other instead of stopping whatever threat happens to be abound, I feel its much better. That's why arcs like Champions and Spark of Life are some of the better ones for me, more focused on the individuals than the overarching threat.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

If I recall correctly Kyoshi defend only their own village, they weren't actively opposing Fire Nation. Jet was special case, while White Lotus is secret organization, not local group of hero. I'm not saying those examples don't count, it just... how to phrase it.

The kyoshi warriors defended only their village, then left to help fight the Fire Nation. And you said nothing about whether they were just local groups or secret groups, so it doesn't make a difference what they are so long as they're fighting the main threat. Again, the same as what Archie Sonic has.

EDIT: I should also add that I'd argue Archie Sonic's problem with these FF groups has less to do with numbers and more to do with overall pacing. Not that it's a cure-all (the Dark Mobius FF weren't all that developed back in the old verse), but that we'd probably have a lot better characterization if we were still doing the 4-issue arc instead of rushing with half an arc every issue like we're in now.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

So, I think the preview pages just subtly confirmed Bean's backstory. Grand Battle Kukku XV pulled out a massive array of bombs right out of hammer space, the exact same thing that is Bean's special ability. Considering this, and the fact Bean was part of the Battle Bird Armada in the old universe, it looks like it's confirmed he was apart of it, and if bomb summoning turns out to be a special ability only presented by loyality (Notice how Kukku XV says he's "perfection", which seems to imply that only the most powerful of the group can use that ability), maybe Bean had an even higher role in the Armada before he left? 

[Echidna Adventurer CC14]

Didn't Bean's bio in the old universe encyclopedia mention rumors of him being some kind of failed Armada experiment? I wonder if that ends up being the truth and the Battle Lord is the result of perfecting that biotechnology...

[Heckboy]

Great Battle Kukku's bombs are based on his attack in the original Tails Adventure. Wouldn't shock me if Ian had plans to make some connection to Bean's ability at some point, though. I think even the old Encyclopedia mentioned the Battle Kukku having abilities similar to Bean.

[Your Vest Friend]

To me, as well as good characterisation, dynamics are also important for fleshing out a character without needing to broach backstory or growth necessarily. We define a lot of the game characters by their dynamics with other game characters as well as their stated personalty traits. Heck, maybe that's why headcanon-ing relationships (platonic or romantic) is such a big thing since it's derived from something so integral.

When was the last time we got defined dynamics between the new characters on the good side? Meropis, maybe? Honey? Meanwhile, newer good characters are being defined by "We are a team, we do team things" within the groups they're in and as a result we're not really being shown how each team defines itself or even any indication of how close they are (or in Gold's case, how she contributes to Silver and Schlemmer's group as she hasn't really been involved yet). Ironically, I think Bunker's one of the only ones who does in any notable fashion; after Cinder goes off on her phoenix spiel, Bunker's only response is "Y-Yes child, of course." which not only shows her politeness, but also how she doesn't quite roll with eccentricity and isn't used to Cinder yet. It says more about her in one line than reams of expositional dialogue where she's super formal. Meanwhile, Eggman's Dozen, which has the more popular Egg Boss group, is all about exploring character dynamics. We need more of that across the board.

 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

So, I think the preview pages just subtly confirmed Bean's backstory. Grand Battle Kukku XV pulled out a massive array of bombs right out of hammer space, the exact same thing that is Bean's special ability. Considering this, and the fact Bean was part of the Battle Bird Armada in the old universe, it looks like it's confirmed he was apart of it, and if bomb summoning turns out to be a special ability only presented by loyality (Notice how Kukku XV says he's "perfection", which seems to imply that only the most powerful of the group can use that ability), maybe Bean had an even higher role in the Armada before he left? 

 

57 minutes ago, Super CC14 RPG said:

Didn't Bean's bio in the old universe encyclopedia mention rumors of him being some kind of failed Armada experiment? I wonder if that ends up being the truth and the Battle Lord is the result of perfecting that biotechnology...

 

49 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Great Battle Kukku's bombs are based on his attack in the original Tails Adventure. Wouldn't shock me if Ian had plans to make some connection to Bean's ability at some point, though. I think even the old Encyclopedia mentioned the Battle Kukku having abilities similar to Bean.

Also, the Battle Lord was originally going to be Bean and Speedy's grandfather of the Dynamite Dux legacy in Ian and Jon's initial concepts of the Tails Adventure arc.

[Multikaris]

On May 23, 2016 at 3:23 PM, ThatGuy said:

 

I'll be honest, it's bad enough we seem to have a surfeit of teams, but then we have to make it like nearly every continent has a local Freedom Fighter branch by giving them a silly name. Just make a group of 3 to 5 guys, each with their own unique skill or quirk ('The leader', 'the brains', 'the orphan') and call them 'The Soumerican Shining Squad' or 'The Efrika Number 1 Freedom Fighters Agency'.

Okay, I am exaggerating a little bit. However I wouldn't mind just having one or two characters, who simply lead a group of nameless rebels against the Egg army. Maybe flesh out a couple of grunts but just focus on the main leaders. In fact, I'm trying to remember if we've seen just some bog-standard, normal freedom fighters. It feels less like a conflict and more like a gang war.

 

Fleetway's FFs (except the main ones, the Chaotix, and to a lesser extent the Sky Pirates) were like that, with one or two named but not too important leaders leading nameless rebel grunts. These groups were all one species, like The Flock were all sheep and the Underground Movement were all skunks, and so were made to look similar (and not very Sonic-like). Emphasis on the were, as the Ultimax, the Turquoise Hill Freedom Fighters, the Household Keepers, and the Scrap Mobians are a bit more Archie-like in their treatment (but the Bounder Brigade were distinctly Fleetway)

On May 24, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Sonictrainer said:

What's everyone's opinion about the Shamar group?

Sonar's personality reminds me of SpongeBob for some reason.

[RobotnikHolmes]

Speaking of Chun-nan Freedom Fighters, Adam Bryce Thomas is at it again!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Dragon X Kumei Formation from Shaolin Showdown. Nice reference.

[Mauro Fonseca]

23 hours ago, Sonikku. said:

  Hide contents

I gotta say, I love Archie Sonic's world building.

... more than half of that is just Unleashed.

14 hours ago, Miru said:

Emphasis on the were, as the Ultimax, the Turquoise Hill Freedom Fighters, the Household Keepers, and the Scrap Mobians are a bit more Archie-like in their treatment.

Emphasis on "Sonic the Comic-Online! is a fancomic and really needs to stop being brought up on these discussions because it's entirely fucking irrelevant".