Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Toby]

Did you get the new issue, I'm guessing?

[SBR2]

2 hours ago, Ernest-Panda said:

So how about dat Price of Flame eh??

Wait did the new Digest have that story in it? Wonder if this shows where Gallagher stands?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

They are coming out with this on 6/29 - this looks awesome!

[Dejimon11]

No seriously I really don't. Considering their track record for Sonic/Mega Man trades. 

[Zaysho]

The crossovers sell, I'd believe after they're finally able to start putting out trades again they'd prioritize the new one (they can only shove "Worlds Collide" down our throats so many times). Though I went through "Worlds Unite" once already, I can't say I'm interested in revisiting it.

Here's hoping other Action trade lines pick up, but I'm slightly less hopeful when the pre-reboot Sonic trade lines are pretty much dead in the water at this point (I was collecting the "Sagas" series up until all the delays and cancellations happened).

[SBR2]

I do want to get these mostly because I basically only got the Sonic Issues that tie into the arc and want to read the whole thing for myself.

[Your Vest Friend]

Uh, no Toby. What it is was that I made a status asking someone to post here so I could rant on a much older issue. He did it...and then I got called down to peel potatoes and then had to update Bumblekast. It's taken me the best part of four hours to get back to doing this.

So anyway, let's talk Dulcy a bit more (before Wings of Fire part 2 reaches the subscribers). There are two kinds of bad story, really. There's the kind that you can tell is bad on even the first look. This is Crouching Hedgehog Hidden Dragon, which had the well known story of having Dulcy being domestically abused (and mangling a moral about military presence which a lot probably don't notice due to that). Everyone can rag on that forever because the badness is in plain sight and doesn't need any background for it. Then there's the kind that seems okay on first read, if you're unfamiliar with prior works. But the more you look into the past and the stories that came before, the more you come to realise that the story is actually a whole pile of nonsense. This is where The Price of Flame fits. Let's go chronologically.

First of all, Gallagher has the Freedom Fighters hold a pep rally for Dulcy, only for her to fly off when asked to light the bonfire. We then have her start to exposit on her background. This first point is minor, but endemic of a larger issue with the story; in the flashback, everyone is roboticised, Dulcy finds herself alone, but then Glint comes along and just drags her with him, meaning she's not the last dragon. The fact that this contradicts Sonic #29 isn't something that I have a problem with (in fact, the line about her realising that she's not the last seems like a direct counter to that assertion). The problem is that in Dulcy's datafile in #107 (which Gallagher did look at, as you'll see later) specifically said that Sabina secured Dulcy in sanctuary before getting roboticised, and the efforts of her mother are completely ignored here in favour of some new guy we're supposed to accept has been Dulcy's superior this entire time. What, you couldn't be bothered to read that and give more of a heartstring to the entire scene? You could have just had Sabina hand Dulcy over to Glint as she had to go back to try and help the loose dragons, that's just lazy.

But that's the least noticeable account of lack of research. Dulcy then exposits that for going with the FFs to do some missions, she was banished and her fire breathing inhibited, hence why she went from a black ring to gold ring. This is shoddy writing on all fronts. For one, the plot is about a question that nobody asked; why Dulcy doesn't breath fire that often. When you actually look back, a lot of missions either weren't dependent on her offensive power (once she was used as a spy, another two just for flight, another was a story about her and Amy with zero enemies), and the rare times she did attack all she needed was her physical attributes (a couple of times to whip enemies, once to stomp on the ground and intimidate Geoffrey's troops back, and even then she was really angry). It wasn't as if these were situations that would have been easier if she just used fire.

Then there's the fact his claim that Dulcy only used fire in one issue before then, and the contrivance he tries to pull as to other instance where it seems like it wouldn't fit here make it clear that he'd only read the issues with Dulcy on the cover and not nearly every Dulcy issue.

-The entire dumb "I painted my nose ring black sometimes" referring to the cover of Sonic #49 is dumb because it's trying to cover a cover plothole, never mind the fact that covers are not part of the story and shouldn't be used to indicate any canon (such as how the Waves of Change variant was at Seaside Hill, when the story beach was generic). Also, how can Super Sonic Special #2 (Brave New World) be set before her exile if #49 isn't? That came first chronologically since Brave New World was set after Endgame!

-It's then claimed that Dulcy's black ring in Sonic Super Special #2's cover and fourth panel are there because it's set before her banishment. But if literally all official art from the issue is fair game for analysis, then he must have selective vision because the summary art has Dulcy with a gold ring. Oops.

-Dulcy has used her fire far more than once.

*The third time she used it was Sonic #46, to startle the would-be intruders to the camp before they reveal themselves as the Wolf Pack. You can use the nose painting thing as an excuse, but he still missed it and it has the same problems as #49.

*The last time she used it was to help stop a meteor strike in #68. That story throws a spanner in the works with her having a white ring. What, was this is the phase where she styled it to her liking? A minor moment, but again one that was missed.

*I've put the second time last because it completely shoots down all of the logic in this issue stone cold dead. It's Sonic Super Special #1 aka Battle Royale. Dulcy breathes fire here too, but this isn't a small moment that you can miss by rushing through. Dulcy breathing fire is the entire linchpin of the heroes' plan to get one-up on Mammoth Mogul because her and Archimedes combining their fire made a blast that Mogul and the Fearsome Four took as meaning that the FFs and the Chaotix were dead, thereby giving the heroes the diversion they needed to surprise them. The fact that Dulcy made the FF count higher than four was a plot point in of itself too. And the kicker? This is the first issue where Dulcy had her ring coloured gold, which is literally impossible by the logic of Price of Flame. OOPS.

All of this makes it very clear that the only Dulcy stories he read were the ones where Dulcy was on the cover, because how do you miss that?

Oh, but it gets worse. After the backstory spill, Dulcy decides to go back to Vesuvio and ask for a pardon. When she gets there, the plot comes into motion; Eggman is attacking the place with roboticised dragons. As Dulcy makes clear later, at least one of them was her mother who was roboticised a long time ago, so it's likely the ones who initiated the attack were from decades before. That's nice and all, but there's one tiny snag...every Robian up to that point (bar Jules because he'd die) got deroboticised, and gained an immunity to further roboticisation with it thirty issues ago! If they were roboticised before that, they should have been reverted. If they had been reverted, Eggman shouldn't have been able to roboticise them again. It's impossible either way you look at it, and it's stunning that he was able to miss such a huge plot point of the comic at that point.

The rest of it is just general Dulcy being doubted but proving herself, but it's such a pointless and blatantly forced story that there's nothing to be gained from it aside from seeing Gallagher doing the same thing to Dulcy that Penders did to Knuckles* and giving his own clones unwarranted importance. And to top it all off, he ignored all the decent portrayals of Dulcy but found time to reference the domestic abuse story. No wonder Ian felt he couldn't come up with anything for her, the two last stories for her were garbage.

*Penders wrote a nice Dulcy though. The worst you can say is that "dragons can't tell lies" was a negative on Endgame, not really her as it didn't make a difference to her character. It was a clunky extension of her sensing the purity of truth, which actually makes sense with her. More sense than a huge destiny set up for her.

 

[Big Panda]

Random Trivia: 155 and 156 (the issues that PoF was published in) were originally planned to have "See Ya Later, Chao" (from 173/174) as those issues back-up stories.

[SBR2]

In fairness the Recap in Part 2 claims the Roboticized Dragons were hidden. I mean it's stupid but it's an explanation.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Detective, I think you're exaggerating things a bit. Bad continuity doesn't automatically makes a bad story, especially if you had to actually do research to notice it.

I agree that story is weak though. Like you said: it "fills" the plothole that no one really cared about and gives backstory that isn't really interesting or gives us new hindsight on the character.

[Your Vest Friend]

Hey, I'm a research enthusiast, it's what I hone in on. And when I see some pretty obvious signs that it wasn't done, especially in a story that's hinging on it, that does not make for a happy VEDJ-F.

[MetalSkulkBane]

And good for you, but (to me at least) continuity might be least important aspect of the story. Much more important is art, plot, characterization, action scenes, humor, stuff like that (I guess grammar is less important).

X-men First Class is a great movie, but contradicts X-men 3 (the flashback where old Xavier walked on his own).

Personally I just put that story before the Dereboticisation incident, and every time ting is wrong colored I just call "error", just like Bernie/Amy in 177. Okay, the point of this story is to fix the plotholes, so fact that it makes ones is stupid, but IF it stood up on the elements I mentioned earlier, then I wouldn't mind it at all,

[DabigRG]

OK, since its been pretty quiet around here, I'll try to start a discussion.

 

Since we're nearing the end of the Eggman's Dozen, I'll go ahead and ask:

What does everyone think of the Villians so far?

[Heckboy]

Do you mean the Naugus Twins or... well, everyone, since they're all villains?

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Do you mean the Naugus Twins or... well, everyone, since they're all villains?

Everyone, if only because the villians have up until now been a bit contentious to the story quality.

As for the Twins specifically, I actually really like them as both a sibling team and as individuals. Did anyone else take forever realize that their powers are from SatAM?

 

 

[Heckboy]

Ah.

I'll go with the Twins first. They're designs... ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (Wally's is at least something of an improvement over his old look). But I will say that I think they're actually pretty entertaining together ("These are all hallmarks of Dark Gaia reawakening, you goober!", "Quick, summon your idiots!"). I'll be sad when they split up at the end of the arc.

The Egg Bosses are okay. Their interactions are interesting at the very least (though I'm still annoyed that the Battle Kukkus are part of the Egg Army now).

The Witchcarters are disappointing, IMO. The designs aren't very good, and their personalities are pretty forgettable or feel like retreads of past psycho characters (Falke and Carrotia).

Edited June 1, 2016 by Mister X

[DabigRG]

35 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Ah.

The Egg Bosses are okay. Their interactions are interesting at the very least (though I'm still annoyed that the Battle Kukkus are part of the Egg Army now).

The Witchcarters are disappointing, IMO. The designs aren't very good, and their personalities are pretty boring (Bearenger) or feel like retreads of past psycho characters (Falke and Carrotia).

Well, they were technically nominal members pre-boot and the BattleLord's dialogue suggests that their relationship is not quite subordinate now, but I see your point.

As for the Witchcarters, they are a mixed bag. While I somewhat like how simple their designs are(as a possible nod to their bizarre game appearance), I will say they aren't too striking visually, with Falke Wulf being the main offender. I actually really enjoyed the twist that theyre under mindcontrol, though that does comes with some unnerving implications.

On their personalities, theyre not really meant to stand out in the context of this story. This is the same story that goes into the Naugus Twins history with Eggman, the differences between the Egg Bosses, and the motivations of the Egg Army's command. So, the characterization on what are essentially Wendy's psycho rangers shouldn't be too deep.

Plus, its worth noting that many of the new characters have elements of previous characters.

 

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I think it would be better to judge them AFTER the story arc, but what the hell.

Twins: Okay, but I'm not sold yet. I guess it makes sense to give Naugus a bit funny site (he wasn't that interesting in the past), but we have so few big names threatening villains these days. Just Eggman and Universe Trio (Cap Metal, Eclipse and Phage).

Witchcarters: Worked for what they supposed to be, I kinda like the "psychos" theme. Yes we had simiar charactes before, but is that a problem? No one complains about Gemerl/Shard. I just don't know what will happen to them next. Will they keep their powers? And will they be mind controlled all the time. I was okay with "Tassel Boy", he's nobody and we will never see him again. Keeping them around as puppets minght be a little crepey (will see, maybe it will work).

Egg Bosses: Adorable bunch when it comes to characterization, and they do have a little powers of their own, but I'll risk repeating myself and say that I don't want Sonic to fight them every second issue.

[Heckboy]

8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Well, they were technically nominal members pre-boot and the BattleLord's dialogue suggests that their relationship is not quite as submissive now, but I see your point.

As for the Witchcarters, they are a mixed bag. While I somewhat like how simple their designs are(as a possible nod to their bizarre game appearance), I will say they aren't too striking visually, with Falke Wulf being the main offender. I actually really enjoyed the twist that theyre under mindcontrol, though that does comes with some unnerving implications. On their personalities, theyre not really meant to stand out in the context of this story. This is the same story that goes into the Naugus Twins history with Eggman, the differences between the Egg Bosses, and the motivations of the Egg Army's command. So, the characterization on what are essentially Wendy's psycho lackeys shouldn't be too deep.

Plus, its worth noting that many of the new characters have elements of previous characters.

 

 

I definitely agree Falke's design is the worst of trio. He barely looks like a wolf. Not sure what happened, since even the sketch Ian did looked more like a wolf.

For me, it's not so much that they aren't getting enough focus or deep characterization, but more that they (mainly Falke and Carrotia) feel very similar to previous "unhinged" characters (i.e. Flying Frog and Rosy). Falke laughs and talks at the same time much like Flying ("us too-hoo-hoo!" vs. "Me-hee-hee?"), while Carrotia even does the whole creepy rhyming thing a lot like Rosy at one point. I'm still willing to give them time, since they might be more interesting down the line if they get more focus (the Egg Bosses are pretty much the stars here). But right now they just feel a bit like retreads of older characters to me.

 

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I think it would be better to judge them AFTER the story arc, but what the hell.

Twins: Okay, but I'm not sold yet. I guess it makes sense to give Naugus a bit funny site (he wasn't that interesting in the past), but we have so few big names threatening villains these days. Just Eggman and Universe Trio (Cap Metal, Eclipse and Phage).

Witchcarters: Worked for what they supposed to be, I kinda like the "psychos" theme. Yes we had simiar charactes before, but is that a problem? No one complains about Gemerl/Shard. 

 

Actually, I initially meant villains in general, but got so swept up in talkin about the wizards and cyborgs that I ignored my own logic. After all, remember how  everyone thought Carrotia was nute?

I want to say I want more distinct villains besides Eggman, Naugus, Eclipse, and Breezie, but I think the current concensus is that we dont having enough distinct non-villains.

 Not to draw the wrong attention but no one probably complains about Gemerl and Shard because: Shard was a popular character from preboot who actually got some "closure," Gemerl is a game character who was surprisingly underutilized, and the similarities make sense.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As far as Eggman's Dozen goes, I'm mainly here for just the Egg Bosses. The small amount of history revealed between Akhlut and Tundra made me interested to learn more about their past when their tribes were at war. And as little as we know about Abyss aside from being a pirate and in control of half the oceans, I want to know more of how she goes about plundering for the Eggman Empire. That said, out of all the Egg Bosses, Maw is ironically the least interesting to me for the time being - there's hardly anything given about him besides his rank, location, and his powers (which I think are in desperate need of some kind of counter, because being the Empire's resident "Kirby" is broken as fuck otherwise). If Maw was given a slight more information as to what he does in Trailus, then that would make me gravitate toward wanting to know more - which will eventually be the case down the line, so it's not too big an issue.

If there's one thing I'd change about the Egg Bosses, it's that I'd prefer most of them to have genuine loyalty to Eggman in addition to serving him out of pragmatism - basically everyone aside from Battle Kukku, each with varying shades of sympathy (Cassia and Clove, Nephthys), disagreements with the heroes (presumably Maw), neutral reasons (Tundra, Axel, Abyss) and self-serving yet likely understanding ones (Conquering Storm given how factionalized Yurashian clans are, and Mordred Hood), in addition to just outright enjoying being under Eggman's employ (Tunderbolt). A near 0% approval rating among your minions isn't exactly the most interesting thing, although I wouldn't mind a single Egg Boss like Battle Kukku being much more resistant and likely to betray the empire given he seems to have his own agenda.

As for the Naugus Twins...I'm not entirely sure what to say. Wendy is by far the more interesting of the twins, while Wally has the misfortune of having his older history (which was far more interesting to me) completely chucked into the bin. Wally just needs more time for me to make any further judgement on him down the line, but he's unfortunately not as interesting as he was when he was once master of a wider range of spells.

As for Witchcarters, they're so-so. Them being mind controlled by Wendy instead of having genuine loyalty seems like it was mainly there to showcase Wendy's abilities than it was there to move things along, and I honestly think that could have made room for something else given how quickly they went from brainwashed, to freedom, then back to being brainwashed in the span of around two pages unless there's more about it coming in the next issue. I do admit that I kinda like Falkewulf's manic personality and Carrotia's design and mental silliness, but Bearegner is the most lacking out of the bunch right now in personality and design. They're pretty inoffensive overall tho.

 

[QuantumEdge]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

OK, since its been pretty quiet around here, I'll try to start a discussion.

 

Since we're nearing the end of the Eggman's Dozen, I'll go ahead and ask:

What does everyone think of the Villians so far?

Considering I'm on the cusp of putting Eggman's Dozen in the favourite pile, I'd say they're pretty darn good.  Clove is just as cool headed as ever (with a freaking laser scythe now), Axel's belief on supporting each, no matter the hate makes him that more likeable and Maw just sucks in (heh, heh, excuse the pun) my interest.  Although I'll probably have to wait until another story to know more, just like knowing more on Tundra and Akluht's warring with each other.  As for the others, they all get their chance to shine, though some lack the character insight the others have, but the story somehow juggles them pretty well.

As for Wally and Wendy, like Mister X said, they bounce off of one another in all the right ways and it'll be a shame to see them part.  And although they feel like rehashs from previous people, I feel like I need to see more of the Witchcarters to get a proper, concrete opinion on them.  For now, they're just okay.  Not very original, but okay.

[DabigRG]

As for some of the other villains:

I recall seeing Naugus's redesign on Bumbleking and thought there was a Lord of the Rings crossover coming up next. But seriously though, I actually love how they took Naugus, the one SatAM holdover that didn't fit in at all with the SEGA artstyle, and in no way made him fit in aside from some additional belts and buckles. Lumping him in with Witchcart was a hilarious silly but brilliant choice that abuses how out of place those five are. As I previously mentioned, it amuses me that my wish for his powers to be more distinct was granted by giving him the same powers he had in SatAM except possibly even more broken. I do miss the long nose he had initially, since it reminded me of that scrapped troll creature from SA2.

Witchcart has also been an absolute joy of an antagonist so far, with her childishly kooky demeanor and petty, nebulous allegiance( which I totally called, btw) making the fact that she is Naugus's sister funny and genius.

Unfortunately, its been so long since we've seen Eclipse that I don't remember my initial impressions of him. I do like the idea of him and the Dark Arms, at least.

I enjoyed how Breezie was implemented as a self-concerned enterpriser who will do anything to make more money without coming across as overly greedy. The arcwelding with the GameGear games only add to my appreciation and I look forward to seeing her again as a rare non-combatant villain some time in the future.

Still debating on my opinions on Aklhut and Maw, especially considering how their designs and color schemes rub me the wrong way.

[Your Vest Friend]

...Wait, Maw and Akhlut's colours schemes are basically just Espio and Vector's colour schemes distributed differently. Huh.

Then again, with such an abundant use of black and white on both, I guess colour choices to add are limited. 

[Heckboy]

51 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I do miss the long nose he had initially, since it reminded me of that scrapped troll creature from SA2.

What scrapped troll creature from SA2?