Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Flyboy Fox]

The fact that Ian said himself over at Bumbleking that this was the first he'd heard of all this makes me think that Ken is blowing a lot of hot air. Ken claims that he already has government granted recognition of his claims and that it's already illegal for his stuff to be used without his consent... yet... you'd think that if all these legal investigations and proceedings actually have happened, lawyers and copyright investigators would have had to have contacted Archie a while ago. I mean, you can't just say "Oh, this stuff is mine, gimme mah copyrights" and then just have it granted. I don't think the proceedings are nearly as 'complete' as he claims they are if Ian didn't even know that Ken's pulling this shit until now.

[KittyNakajima]

All of this has dissapeared over Ian's run.

Just because it disappeared doesn't mean he writes it well. Sonic's libido seems in check (unless you count that recent narm with Sally/Monkey Khan) with Tails, Amy, or any other character not showing such characteristics because they'll disappear for issues at a time before reappearing again when it suits his needs for the story.

And that's just character wise. A lot of the conflict that Flynn's written that I've read (i.e. Sonic and Tails' fight in the 180's, Enerjak Returns, etc.) is pretty anti-climatic. Even that MxYLs arc that he wrote for Sonic Universe had a "WTF R U SERIOUS" resolution.

And before anyone jumps on me about picking on Flynn, Penders' writing wasn't a cakewalk either, as I mentioned in my previous post.

[azoo]

With all the soap opera drama Penders brought combined with Echidna bullcrap noone cared about, Penders made more unnecessary crap. Because he started it, they couldn't help but continue it.

[ChaosXVI]

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SA=Penders%2C%20Ken&PID=HI5cihbk2GtwQidMfoIJvFIsizB&BROWSE=1&HC=115&SID=2

Well, according to the U.S. Copyright website, Penders has actually already succeeded in taking ownership of many of his stories, which worries me...But still you will notice the lack of characters. Also earlier on his website, he mentions that he will be at Comic-Con touting a graphic novel called BROTHERHOOD OF GUARDIANS: LOCKE, and will be selling posters of the Brotherhood of Guardians...I just don't understand how this could happen! I actually liked a lot of his early stories and most of the Knuckles series, so it displeases me greatly that I now have to loathe him for the piece of greedy shit that he is.

p.s. holy crap its kittynakajima! Haven't seen you since that d-bag promised the SatAM community a revival and we outed him!

[Immortheus]

Ian just posted a longer reply to all of this.

http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2830

I had wanted to let this ride out by itself and not mire BKC in paranoia and speculation, but given the amount of email, PMs and general broo-ha-ha around the net, I guess a little pat on the head and "everything will be fine" doesn't quite cut it.

I still do not want this to blow itself out or proportion, so this is the go-to thread for info and news. There will be no discussion because there's nothing to discuss, and all it will do is get everyone in a tizzy.

The Short Version

The Archie legal department is handling things. I've been told to keep writing as usual and to continue with our plans for the end of 2010/start of 2011. As I said before: no worries.

The Longer Version

Bear in mind that I don't have all the information. All I'm going off of is my limited understanding of the ownership of things within the book and franchise. So unless Mr. Penders pulls a rabbit out of his hat, I feel fairly confident in my understanding of things.

1) Work-for-Hire - While I'm bound by my contract to not talk about my contract, I can say I'm work-for-hire. I've been on the book for five years (!!!) and I'm still freelance, part-time, on-the-side. All of my contributions to the book are for the book, and I'm paid for that.

All the stuff I came up with for "Young Salem" - Foreman Armstrong, Mortimer Destiny, the Lizarmyn, Horde Lord, concept, etc. - is Archie's. I can't do my own book under BKC about Mortimer and Felicia's younger days.

Sonic-wise, I have a harder parallel to draw since I've spent more time using the content within the book and taking it in new directions. I suppose Thrash is the best example, lean as he is character-wise. He's Archie's. Plain and simple.

Everyone on staff (and I include us freelaners when I say this) has to sign that contract. So unless Mr. Penders's contract was wildly different, he signed away those characters before he even created them.

2) SEGA - It is my understanding, as explained by Mr. Penders himself years ago on his forum - that ultimately SEGA owns everything in the book. If it's associated with Sonic in the book, it is by extension SEGA's. From my understanding, that is why BioWare could so freely emulate the Dark Legion for the Marauders.

I know there was some confusion elsewhere concerning rights to SatAM. As it was explained, SEGA owns the intellectual property - the characters and such - but DiC retains the rights to the animation. So you wouldn't see SEGA reselling SatAM boxsets willy-nilly. Conversely, DiC wouldn't be able to just up and make a new Sonic cartoon.

3) Reboot - Oh if I had a nickle for every time this word got tossed around. I've already begun material for 2011 and, as I said before, have been told there's no need to change. Not that we're blindly forging ahead, but that we have no reason to stop.

What would need a reboot, in the scenario that Mr. Penders somehow did win out in all this, is his plans. SEGA would not grant him the license to use Knuckles, I can flat-out tell you that with certainty. So right there the core component of the Echidna Lore - the main character - is gone.

He would not be able to use Angel Island, Mobius, or the Chaos Emeralds. Easy enough fix, though, right? It's Skyhigh Island on Terra using the Magi-Gems for flight. (copyright, by the way. Double-tappsies, no take-backs).

But the entire Echidna cast is comprised of Knuckles knock-offs. Mr. Penders would be required to redesign the entire cast, unless he's planning on trying to pass it off as parody (which I doubt).

By the time the property would be safe to touch, it would be unrecognizable. It's not about Knuckles's society or family. It's not about echidnas (the kind we think of, at least). It would now be a sci-fi-lite story about some dudes on a flying island. That could be interesting in its own right, but it's not the story I think Mr. Penders wants to tell, and it's not the one the echidna fans want to read. So I'm not entirely sure what his greater thinking is here.

Again, take my words with a grain of salt. I'm not privy to absolutely everything going on. But from what I do know I am confident I - and you all - have nothing to worry about.

So relax, curl up with the latest SONIC book, and enjoy it while ignoring the storm outside. This too shall pass.

Oh, and the Lien-Da back-up story that was going to be in #217 has been pushed back, but NOT because of Penders. Ian said that SEGA wants them to do a Sonic Colors back-up.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Immortheus

[Yong]

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SA=Penders%2C%20Ken&PID=HI5cihbk2GtwQidMfoIJvFIsizB&BROWSE=1&HC=115&SID=2

Well, according to the U.S. Copyright website, Penders has actually already succeeded in taking ownership of many of his stories, which worries me...But still you will notice the lack of characters. Also earlier on his website, he mentions that he will be at Comic-Con touting a graphic novel called BROTHERHOOD OF GUARDIANS: LOCKE, and will be selling posters of the Brotherhood of Guardians...I just don't understand how this could happen! I actually liked a lot of his early stories and most of the Knuckles series, so it displeases me greatly that I now have to loathe him for the piece of greedy shit that he is.

p.s. holy crap its kittynakajima! Haven't seen you since that d-bag promised the SatAM community a revival and we outed him!

Well good thing Flynn already killed off Locke.

And sorry Penders, the only doujinshi I buy has hardcore sex in it.

He would not be able to use Angel Island, Mobius, or the Chaos Emeralds. Easy enough fix, though, right? It's Skyhigh Island on Terra using the Magi-Gems for flight. (copyright, by the way. Double-tappsies, no take-backs).

Flynn wins. Good day.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Yong

[KittyNakajima]

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SA=Penders%2C%20Ken&PID=HI5cihbk2GtwQidMfoIJvFIsizB&BROWSE=1&HC=115&SID=2

Well, according to the U.S. Copyright website, Penders has actually already succeeded in taking ownership of many of his stories, which worries me...But still you will notice the lack of characters. Also earlier on his website, he mentions that he will be at Comic-Con touting a graphic novel called BROTHERHOOD OF GUARDIANS: LOCKE, and will be selling posters of the Brotherhood of Guardians...I just don't understand how this could happen! I actually liked a lot of his early stories and most of the Knuckles series, so it displeases me greatly that I now have to loathe him for the piece of greedy shit that he is.

p.s. holy crap its kittynakajima! Haven't seen you since that d-bag promised the SatAM community a revival and we outed him!

Stories are somewhat of a moot point if he can't use the characters that were originally in it. Kind of like how the novelty of a game of Mad Libs wears off after awhile. :c

Also, yes it's been awhile, Chaos. I guess you can say I'm highly amused/intrigued by professionals acting anything but professional.

[ChaosXVI]

Well I'm not really worried about him creating future stories for sale, SEGA will nail him into the ground, end of story, but because he copyrighted his stories, that means that it could become illegal for Archie to reference any story that Ken wrote, and will have a tougher time selling the various Archives and Selects...potentially...Honestly though from what Ian has said, Archie will be able to squash all of this and hopefully SEGA doesn't get annoyed and cancel the thing.

[Flyboy Fox]

I feel so much better after reading that statement from Ian. It doesn't really change anything, but the guy is so professional and competent-sounding. Ken just looks like a whiny child in comparison. Congrats Flynn, you da man!

[Badnik Mechanic]

I feel so much better after reading that statement from Ian. It doesn't really change anything, but the guy is so professional and competent-sounding. Ken just looks like a whiny child in comparison. Congrats Flynn, you da man!

And what better way than to prove your manly qualities than to hire me as new writer!

You know... reading all this stuff, theres days I come on here and I have no clue whats going on anymore. But anyway....

Yay for Ian.

[Flyboy Fox]

I already got dibs (; I'm gonna be representin' for Archie at SoS so you just KNOW they're gonna hire me when this is all done.

And there will be Scourge and Suppression Squad stories. Oh yes. OH YESSSS >_>

... ♥

[JaidynReiman]

Ian Flynn just OWNED this entire debate. Of course, he pretty much explained much of what people around here have said. Neither Ken Penders or Ian Flynn "own" any of these characters; in fact, not even Archie does. Archie may own the stories, but all in all, it belongs to SEGA, period, and as long as SEGA lets them keep doing the comic (and as long as the comic is making money, which in turn makes money for SEGA, I doubt SEGA would care), the comics will keep going.

Anyway, I don't really care about the comic, anyway.

[Immortheus]

Okay, Ian said that he got himself confused. The Amy story IS running in #217, as was stated in the original preview.

http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=111234#111234

Oh, wait, sorry - I got myself confused.

The Amy story does indeed run in #217, so we're all set. Disregard my previous statements of confusion-making.

[Badnik Zero]

Well, all I can say is that Ken better not try to sell those Echidna stories. He could be on the hurting end of new copyright suit.

I guess he hasn't had much success with original comic creations or else he wouldn't be doing this. How many years has it been since Archie. A good comic writer might have come up with something by now, especially with the internet as a means of getting it out there. Ken should realize though that the success of his stories rode on the back of icons. Ken enriched Sonic, and for that I'm thankful. But he did not sell Sonic. Sonic sold himself with the games and cartoons and merchandise craze of the '90s. I think the Echidna arcs are good as a story. But if the comic wasn't called Knuckles... I really don't think I would've had a subscription.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Immortheus]

Penders is trying to gather support now.

http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1877#p1877

One thing that people should consider when discussing this matter is that unlike Marvel and DC Comics, Archie Comics has never believed in paying the creators at any time for reprints of their work. Neither Michael Gallagher nor Scott Shaw! were paid a dime when their initial 4-issue Sonic mini-series was collected into a trade paperback edition, nor has ANY creator been paid for any of their work currently being printed in the SONIC ARCHIVES series.

Meanwhile, Marvel and DC pay their creators royalties every time their work sees publication anywhere, even if it is used on licensed properties. I know this because I have several friends in the industry who receive regular royalty checks, unlike the creators who work for Archie. Indeed, many of the older artists could use the extra bucks the company generates from the Archie Digest reprints, but the company doesn't see fit to work things out with them. Why else do you think Dan DeCarlo of all people got fed up and decided to take Archie to court after working 40 years for them?

Fans are essentially subsidizing Archie screwing the creators by taking the attitude that Archie deserves everything when there is more than enough to go around and treat everyone fairly. By everyone, I mean everyone. That includes Mike K, Karl, Dave, Art, Spaz, Fry, Steve, Dawn and everyone else, including Ian. My actions have always been more than just about me. If I win, everyone who ever worked on the book will win. I would think Sonic fandom could support that stand.

While I agree that Penders and everyone who worked on the book should get royalties for reprints, I do NOT agree that Penders should get royalties everytime someone at Archie uses one of his characters. That will most certainly not allow everyone on the book to "win".

[Marcello]

Sure, he should get royalties when they reprint them, but I don't see how I'm a winner when they have to stop releasing Archives because of this.

Also, is it just me or is Penders really sounding like a whiner? oO

[Aquaslash]

Everyone wins? When they kill off Julie Su because of your greedy blathering, then I LOSE you dipshit. Good GOD what an idiot.

[Badnik Zero]

Maybe he should get paid on reprints, but Chronicles and the characters are pushing it. Maybe he's asking for more so he can come away with the small things.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Flyboy Fox]

I'm laughing my ass off right now.

Why?

Because the previous day Ken was all "YES THIS MEANS YOU CAN'T USE SCOURGE NOW, IT R ILLEGALS".

So, what shows up on Archie's SU blog today courtesy of Ian Flynn? A FRICKIN' 3-PART MICRO HISTORY OF SCOURGE (complete with images of him before AND after and a little dig about how Anti-Sonic (aka Penders' creation) was pretty lame and bland and is much cooler now) XD

"Gone was the cheap knock-off; what was left was a real Scourge."

ILU Ian ♥

[AdventChild]

I'm laughing my ass off right now.

Why?

Because the previous day Ken was all "YES THIS MEANS YOU CAN'T USE SCOURGE NOW, IT R ILLEGALS".

So, what shows up on Archie's SU blog today courtesy of Ian Flynn? A FRICKIN' 3-PART MICRO HISTORY OF SCOURGE (complete with images of him before AND after and a little dig about how Anti-Sonic (aka Penders' creation) was pretty lame and bland and is much cooler now) XD

"Gone was the cheap knock-off; what was left was a real Scourge."

ILU Ian ♥

Do you have a link to the site where you get this info from or can you tell me the name of the site?

[Agent York]

Ken, you're point is valid but it feels like scrapping the bottom a little bit, since from what you've shown you seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel. I can agree and understand the last point but the points before makes you seem desperate in the struggle.

-Claim got copyright and own characters and no one else can use them.

-Then go the sympathetic route, in a place you didn't believe you could be and worried about your family.

-Then go the "Doing this for me fellow artist" route about the way Archie functions (I am unaware if this was covered in any contracts you guys may have signed just as well).

This sounds like internet drama in a way except with bigger stakes. However hard to support when you look at it from a broad perspective.

[Flyboy Fox]

Do you have a link to the site where you get this info from or can you tell me the name of the site?

Ken said in his thread about the issue on his forums that no one can use Scourge any more. The very next day?

http://www.archiecomics.com/blog/sonic_universe/

[PC the Hedgehog]

Ken said in his thread about the issue on his forums that no one can use Scourge any more. The very next day?

http://www.archiecomics.com/blog/sonic_universe/

Pretty sure that was just coincidence. I believe the blog posts are done in advance and automatically updated daily.

Still pretty funny, though.

[Mangoaxe5]

Sure, he should get royalties when they reprint them, but I don't see how I'm a winner when they have to stop releasing Archives because of this.

Also, is it just me or is Penders really sounding like a whiner? oO

Ian said that the Archive(that's coming out this month)is still due to come out this month.

Penders is just trying to scare people.

[ChaosXVI]

Its not the first time Ian has written something in advance of a related event, just look at the cover of issue 217 which was written and drawn long before the U.S. Gulf oil spill!