Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[azoo]

From Flynn's post on that page:

Magic rings? Easy.

Super Emeralds and Time Beams? Child's play.

The ultimate brain-twister in redesign goes to Dr. Robotnik. The classic "evil beach ball" look went out when Dr. Robotnik died in "Endgame" (see Sonic Archives vol. 12 and 13).

We had to bring in a roboticized version from an alternate future, blow him up, and upload his mind into a new robot shell to make him look like he should.

Then we had to throw him to some aliens so he could be flesh and blood again!

Why couldn't you be like Knuckles, doc? He just changed his eye color and nose between issues!

Wow, if that wasn't a direct blow at Pender's overconvolution of the series then I don't know what is.

[The Tenth Doctor]

The one I think has a slight go at Penders is in Scourge's one.

Gone was the cheap knock-off; what was left was a real Scourge.

[JaidynReiman]

^ Well, at least he's explaining why they had to do it. Eggman/Robotnik simply looked far too different, not to mention the fact that someone made the very intelligent move of killing him off a while back.

In the games, newer Eggman doesn't really look that different from classic Egggman... unless, of course, you go by some of the earlier Sonic game manuals which WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to use Eggman's artwork from the cartoon series. Seriously. I received a Sonic & Knuckles manual recently and instead of using all the beautiful game art of Eggman, they HAD to use the horrendous appearance of him in the cartoons. Bah.

[AdventChild]

Well, I don't know if this had been mentioned before, but with this talk about Penders and all that jazz. I've found something interesting on his forum yet something completely different than the current topic at hand.

I present what could have been Ken Penders's ideas from issues #157 - #200 and some other things from Ken Penders Forum.

As I was going through my files the other day, I came across something that many have asked me about, but have yet to publicly reveal... until now. Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

So now that I set things up and presented the road map, feel free to comment.

Edited July 10, 2010 by AdventChild

[PC the Hedgehog]

Wow, if that wasn't a direct blow at Pender's overconvolution of the series then I don't know what is.

To be fair, while Ken is the one who "created' Robo-Robotnik, it was Karl Bollers who "turned him into" Eggman.

[Dejablue]

As far as the make over thing goes. Even today I think Bunnie looks kinda weird with long hair. But I like it more when it's tied back in a pony tail.

[Fairfieldfencer]

In any case, Penders has no grounds to call copyright on Evil Sonic. He made the character, but it's a blatant rip-off of SEGA's own mascot. That's like saying, "HEYZ LOOK! I MADE TERMINATOR WEARING DENIM JACKET 'STEAD OF BIKER JACKET. IT'S ORIGINAL SO IT'S MINE!!"

Edited July 12, 2010 by Fairfieldfencer

[Agent York]

In any case, Penders has no grounds to call copyright on Evil Sonic. He made the character, but it's a blatant rip-off of SEGA's own mascot. That's like saying, "HEYZ LOOK! I MADE TERMINATOR WEARING DENIM JACKET 'STEAD OF BIKER JACKET. IT'S ORIGINAL SO IT'S MINE!!"

It gets even worse when you consider all the echidnas are basically Knuckles edited.

[-Mark-]

True. And he thinks it'll fly if he tries to pass it off as how own original series?

Pfft. Pull the other one, Ken.

[Flyboy Fox]

Ian hinted that Scourge may be back next year in the latest Q&A he did, so now I can finally stop worrying ♥

[Phos]

But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act.

This is hillarious, but I don't think he mention it to be so.

This whole arc detailed here reeks of One True Ship, and I love how he imagined issue 200 being about SatAM holdovers, and how he seems to treat Sally slapping Sonic as some kind of Midi-Clorian esque faux pax.

[Way Past Cool]

Sorry to break from the epic Ken discussion, but oh issue 214. I find it hillarious how as soon as the Sonic and Sally relationship rears its generic head Sally's BOOBS pop out again.

And hips.

While being tied helplessly to a pole.

Can't help yourselves can ya, guys? XD

[Flyboy Fox]

Sorry to break from the epic Ken discussion, but oh issue 214. I find it hillarious how as soon as the Sonic and Sally relationship rears its generic head Sally's BOOBS pop out again.

And hips.

While being tied helplessly to a pole.

Can't help yourselves can ya, guys? XD

So much this. I am disappoint. Sally was nothing but an OBJECT in that issue, and her proportions were ridiculous. She might as well be Super Magical Bishoujou Princess Barbie Sally again. She looks like a busty human girl with a furry head and it's just weird. Plus, tied to a column with plenty of gratuitous Helpless Damsel shots? Really? Lol. Sally's supposed to be a strong feisty female role model, not a pair of tits.

[Way Past Cool]

I was really happy with Sal's design after the haircut... she looked like the original character she used to be but with more detail refinement. 214 had her back in busty, curvy, thick thigh glory. Why..? What's the point?

Oh yeah. She's cozying up to Sonic again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So much this. I am disappoint. Sally was nothing but an OBJECT in that issue, and her proportions were ridiculous. She might as well be Super Magical Bishoujou Princess Barbie Sally again. She looks like a busty human girl with a furry head and it's just weird. Plus, tied to a column with plenty of gratuitous Helpless Damsel shots? Really? Lol. Sally's supposed to be a strong feisty female role model, not a pair of tits.

But I like a pair of tits...really...

Although that is a serious backflip in her portrayal in terms of that. Although I haven't seen #214 yet.

[Way Past Cool]

Here's some shots from issue 214:

And while I've got nothing against boobs, Sally has just never had a pair quite this prominent. Look at the shadow underneath! Seriously XD she's sprouted a rack.

I'm probably more of the school of thought that the Sonic characters should have less-than-human proportions. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles seem to retain their unique SEGA created shape while the ladies and some of the more buff male characters tend to border on furries -- human shaped body, animal head.

Aaand... I never liked boobs on the Sonic ladies... Rouge's freak me out. A bat with bouncing tits. D: Do not want. But that aside, Sally never struck me as the busty type.

[PC the Hedgehog]

Artist Steven Butler comes from a superhero comics background, so he's used to drawing busty girls. He was doing good for a while upon his big return in 201 (after being absent from the book for, like, 50 issues), kind of emulating Tracy Yardley's rendition of Sally, but it looks like he's back to drawing her like he used to back in the day.

Some habits are just hard to break, I suppose.

[Flyboy Fox]

It's not just HOW she's drawn, though, but also how the story uses her. You can't deny that the writers flaunted her assets here by having her tied to a column like a damsel with her arms behind her, showcasing her... um... blossoms. She was completely objectified. That's not just the fault of the artist, but everyone who contributed to her portrayal here.

[AdventChild]

Here's some shots from issue 214:

Yeah, she did received some increase in hips and bust. More or less either fanservice or just some wrong proportions in body art. But it isn't too bad.

Well, Fumu had it worst.

Edited July 12, 2010 by AdventChild

[Way Past Cool]

It's not just HOW she's drawn, though, but also how the story uses her. You can't deny that the writers flaunted her assets here by having her tied to a column like a damsel with her arms behind her, showcasing her... um... blossoms. She was completely objectified. That's not just the fault of the artist, but everyone who contributed to her portrayal here.

XD This. I feel like the panel should hhave read more like:

It's just... not the Sal I knew.

[gato]

O_O

Good I never liked the 90's Sonic cartoons, but I feel bad for the inner child of whoever who watched "that".

[PC the Hedgehog]

Sometimes Sally can't help playing the damsel in distress, I suppose. She was in a similar situation in Sonic Universe #14. Of course, she was drawn by Tracy, so she didn't give off quite the same...vibe as she does this issue.

[Dejablue]

Maybe this is why I like Yardley's art style so much. Sally looks more Sega-ish when he draws her. But she' isn't all noodle. There's just enough there to make her look feminine but it isn't over done. To me its almost the perfect middle ground.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Dejablue

[Badnik Zero]

^ Agreed. Yardley's Sally has a nice shape for an action girl, and you're right that she's more proportioned like a Sega character. This Sally kinda looks like she'll snap at the waist and is a bit too close to human for me. What was the worst Sally ever got in the comics?

[Fairfieldfencer]

Manny Hands. His art was like a blind six-year-old's.

And I'd Sal was 50/50 in damsel and tough female role model story wise. Thinking of this as two parts (213, 214), Sally was the first to figure out where the DEL was hiding and was then ambushed and had the smarts to realise she'd be better off as a hostage since she was way in over her head. Then she has Drago spill the beans for later and finally is quick to stop a war breaking out between two nations by coming out with a speech faster than Sonic himself could have.