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16 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Regardless of whether it's inherent or not that a character must stay in one place - which while true it doesn't dictate that they should -  the point remains that Sonic isn't any less "Sonic" just because he stayed put in a kingdom more than he did adventuring around. That isn't a set-in-stone trait of his given the many other variations the character has had throughout his entire 25 year history, and if people want to talk about how it's less Sonic for him to not explore, I'd expect these same people to raise as much of a stink over how it's less Knuckles for him not staying put as a guardian in similar cases like Boom or the OVA.

I wasn't talking about whether Sonic should be a wanderer or not, I was talking about Soniman's implication that he had to stop being one because comics can't support wandering stories. I wasn't talking continuity, adaptations, or anything, I was saying Soniman was limiting what comics as a medium can do for no reason. I specifically said I didn't want to get into the "Sonic must be like this" discussion again.

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9 hours ago, Meta77 said:

How much longer do you all think the current comic can keep going. I mean after all all comics after some time become stale right?

So many comic series have been running non-stop for 30-40 years. Sonic himself has been running for close to 25 now. I see no reason for it not to continue to do so.

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2 hours ago, The KKM said:

I wasn't talking about whether Sonic should be a wanderer or not, I was talking about Soniman's implication that he had to stop being one because comics can't support wandering stories. 

Funny enough neither was I, cuz I was emphasizing Soniman's point about how that wasn't something he was concerned with and that Sonic being a wanderer or not isn't set in stone like a lot of things. Ironically talking about limiting what the character can do.

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Got 284 today.

EDIT: Spoilers

Spoiler

-Sonic and the FF are preparing for a party on the Sky Patrol. Sally checks in with Nicole, who detected an anomaly of some kind. Inside the Sky Patrol's systems, Nicole finds that the ship's weapons/shields/sensors/communications etc. are disabled. She then finds Tails Doll's digital form, which morphs into Phage. The power on the Sky Patrol goes out, and suddenly the Battle Fortress approaches. The Battle Lord orders his troops to hit them with everything they've got.

-Sally sends Sonic, Bunnie, and Antoine to deal with the attackers. She then has Tails and Rotor give support to Nicole and try to get the systems back up. Chip goes with Sally. 

-Meanwhile, the Hooligans, Witchcarters, Metal Sonic, and a ton of Badniks approach Mobotropolis. The Witchcarters cover the Hooligans as they go for the castle, while Metal deals with Gemerl. The Hooligans infiltrate the castle and find King NIGEL Acorn (that's his real name) waiting outside the royal vault where the Emeralds and Gaia Keys are. Nigel confronts them with his energy blade and shield (like Sally's blade), but Bark soon brings him down, enabling the Hooligans to reach the royal vault. Back outside, Nack tells Metal to bring the stolen Emeralds and Keys to Eggman. 

-Back at the Sky Patrol, Sonic, Bunnie, and 'Twan are fighting Armada soldiers. Speedy (wearing his battle armor!) and two other soldiers, meanwhile, are attacking the interior and manage to capture Chip. Speedy begins to retreat and leaves his escort behind to deal with Sally.

-Tails has all of his RCs (from Lost World), T-Pup, and Omochao hunting for Tails Doll. T-Pup finds Tails Doll and brings it back to Rotor and Tails, who promptly pull off its control gem. Nicole, still dealing with Phage, asks Tails for the Red Star Ring. She transforms into Overclocked Nicole and tries to purge Phage from the system.

-Speedy escapes the Sky Patrol with Chip, and the Battle Lord orders the rest of his forces to fall back, and then orders team two (planting bombs on the outside) to detonate their charges as they retreat. There's a big explosion, Phage leaves (she was only stalling for time), and the Sky Patrol begins to fall towards the mantle. 

 

Edited by Mister X

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17 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Got 284 today. Spoilers in a minute...

I take it Skelly blew it out of the park again?  Also, from a scale of one to Worlds Unite, how crazy is part 1 alone by the question of all out scale?

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23 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

I take it Skelly blew it out of the park again?  Also, from a scale of one to Worlds Unite, how crazy is part 1 alone by the question of all out scale?

The art's great. Definitely a nice change...

But anyway, yeah, not sure how I'd rank it exactly, but it's pretty crazy. Lots of stuff happens. 

14 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

 

  Hide contents

...Wait, suicide bombers?

 

 

Spoiler

Oh wait, I made a mistake. Team Two is actually outside the Sky Patrol, planting bombs on the engines and then retreating. The other two (Speedy's escort) are still left inside the Sky Patrol though.

 

Edited by Mister X

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...Call me crazy, but I still think it looks you're basically arguing that the subjective opinions of others are invalid, even if you don't realize that's what you're arguing. It seems you don't realize the implications of the words you're using. Regardless of your intent, the actual things you are saying have some not-so-great implications, because the terminology you've been using is refers to things that are not based in any actual, objective reality.

In your first post, you said that "Sonic isn't any less 'Sonic' just because he stayed put in a kingdom more than he did adventuring around". But what makes Sonic “Sonic” is not based in an objective reality. It varies from person to person. “Sonicness” is not some scientifically measurable trait. So yeah, basically, you are exerting your own opinion as fact, even if you don’t realize it. Now, you do seem to try to put an objective spin on it by bringing up “Sonic’s 25 year history” and the objective fact that he hasn’t always been depicted with that trait. But it’s not like there’s some official rulebook stating that only traits which a character has always been depicted as having can be considered to be “what makes them who they are”. Heck, there’s no rulebook stating that character traits a character has always been depicted with must be considered to be “what makes them who they are”. There is no objectivity to any of this.

When I brought up Superman in my first post, I don’t think you really understood the point I was trying to make. The point is, Superman’s no-kill policy – heck, even more than that specific policy, just him being humanitarian, a goody-goody, a law-abider in general – is not something he’s always been depicted as being, and it’s not just that he makes exceptions to it; in the early Golden Age comics, he quite simply doesn’t have these traits. And yet, for many, many, many people, these traits are a part of what makes Superman who he is. All I’m trying to prove by this example is that, when it comes to characters who have been depicted multiple ways over the years, there is no direct relationship between how often a character is depicted with a certain trait and whether or not that trait should be considered “what makes them who they are”. It’s just…well, subjective!

Basically, my point is, you have no basis on which to claim that Sonic’s wandering nature is more “exchangeable” than his other traits. You’re simply not arguing anything objective. You’re basically just saying that because a character trait hasn’t always appeared, it’s more open to be changed than other traits. But you have never brought in any objective basis for this view, because there simply isn’t one. As a result, I simply don’t know what to conclude other than that this is simply based on your own subjective opinion, and you’re apparently arguing that it’s more valid than others’ subjective views, with no objective reason to do so.

As far as I can tell, you’re basically saying that changing Sonic’s wandering nature is less of a big deal because it’s not a trait he always has. But I disagree that this is objectively true in any way.  If all you’re saying is that changing Sonic’s wandering nature might be less of a big deal to some people because it’s not a trait he always has, well…yeah, I obviously wouldn’t and couldn’t argue with that. There’s nothing to argue with at all there. But the way you’re saying it, I can’t help but feel that you’re claiming something subjective is objective.

Let’s just take another look at what you quoted as being your main point:

16 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

 

I never said that such and such trait can't be important, I'm saying that such trait isn't as set-in-stone as others that are, and as a result are far more mutable to be exchanged for something else that might equally benefit the character.

Since you made it clear what your main argument is, I might as well clarify what I'm saying: I don't really agree that how "exchangeable" or "mutable" a character trait is necessarily dependent on how "set-in-stone" it is (which seems to mean "whether it appears in every depiction of the character or not"). I mean, you do kinda have a point, in the broad strokes, but...I still feel like it's ultimately subjective. Your opinion makes sense, but it's still just that: an opinion. If that's all you presented this as, I would be completely  fine with it. But the way you're asserting it, I can't help but feel that you're claiming it's an objective fact or something. Which it definitely isn't. There's a massive difference between a perfectly reasonable opinion (like yours) and a fact. And this, your main point, is definitely just a subjective opinion. A very reasonable opinion, but something everyone ought to concede to? Not in the slightest. And if you're not trying to assert this opinion as a fact, then I don't know what you're trying to say or do or what the point of all this arguing is. Maybe I really am just missing something, for all I know.

With this, I probably am going to bow out, for real this time. xP (But, no guarantees, sadly.) Sorry this was such a pain. I don't even care that badly about Sonic being a vagabond, ironically. To be honest, all I want is for you to confirm that that statement you yourself cite as your main point is indeed just your own subjective opinion. If you do that, I'll be 100% perfectly happy and satisfied. I don't even care if you prove that that's what you were always arguing and make me look like an idiot as a result. Literally all I want is for it to be made clear that this is not an objective fact, which I personally don't think you've really done yet, at least not very well. It's just a perfectly reasonable opinion, nothing more and nothing less. And incidentally, if you don't do that, I'm pretty much guaranteed to just give this up.

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Now THAT'S an opening. I love when Eggman brings his all into something like this and gives the heroes a run for their money.

And NIGEL Acorn? Lol, um...kinda prefered Maximillian, but I'm glad he has a first name now. They're doing everything they can to separate from Penders, huh? Really want to see his energy sword and shield.

Quote

...Call me crazy, but I still think it looks you're basically arguing that the subjective opinions of others are invalid, even if you don't realize that's what you're arguing. It seems you don't realize the implications of the words you're using. Regardless of your intent, the actual things you are saying have some not-so-great implications, because the terminology you've been using is refers to things that are not based in any actual, objective reality.

After I just told you what I meant, what I wasn't implying, and blatantly said the exact opposite about the subjective opinions of others...yeah, that's very crazy. If you're going to be pedantic over the words I've been saying to imply something not-so-great after I already defined what I meant by them, that is really on you.

Quote

In your first post, you said that "Sonic isn't any less 'Sonic' just because he stayed put in a kingdom more than he did adventuring around". But what makes Sonic “Sonic” is not based in an objective reality. It varies from person to person. “Sonicness” is not some scientifically measurable trait. So yeah, basically, you are exerting your own opinion as fact, even if you don’t realize it. Now, you do seem to try to put an objective spin on it by bringing up “Sonic’s 25 year history” and the objective fact that he hasn’t always been depicted with that trait. But it’s not like there’s some official rulebook stating that only traits which a character has always been depicted as having can be considered to be “what makes them who they are”. Heck, there’s no rulebook stating that character traits a character has always been depicted with must be considered to be “what makes them who they are”. There is no objectivity to any of this.

So basically, you're telling me the exact same thing I was saying from the start - that these traits aren't set in stone. Good.

Now that just brings into question how in the world that all got twisted as me somehow saying "these traits can't important to someone," "other people's opinions are invalid or inferior to mine," or my personal favorite "I'm annoyed at people having a different opinion from me and should adhere to my standards."

Quote

Basically, my point is, you have no basis on which to claim that Sonic’s wandering nature is more “exchangeable” than his other traits. You’re simply not arguing anything objective. You’re basically just saying that because a character trait hasn’t always appeared, it’s more open to be changed than other traits. But you have never brought in any objective basis for this view, because there simply isn’t one. As a result, I simply don’t know what to conclude other than that this is simply based on your own subjective opinion, and you’re apparently arguing that it’s more valid than others’ subjective views, with no objective reason to do so.

As far as I can tell, you’re basically saying that changing Sonic’s wandering nature is less of a big deal because it’s not a trait he always has. But I disagree that this is objectively true in any way.  If all you’re saying is that changing Sonic’s wandering nature might be less of a big deal to some people because it’s not a trait he always has, well…yeah, I obviously wouldn’t and couldn’t argue with that. There’s nothing to argue with at all there. But the way you’re saying it, I can’t help but feel that you’re claiming something subjective is objective.

Yes, I do have a basis to claim that Sonic's wandering nature is more exchangeable than his other traits. It's an observation that Sonic Team has allowed that to be changed across different media they've had over the 25 years this franchise has been around, whether it be the cartoons, the comics, and the likes. Again, it has nothing to do with my opinion on the matter than it is pointing out this is something that has already been done.

And it being less of a big deal to some people is less that it's not a trait he always has, but acknowledging that those people have more reasons for liking that character they can fall back on. Again, it's not saying that that the lost trait isn't important to them and that they should be content with what's left, but that the variety of those other traits still gives them something to like about them even if they're missing one that they also like. However important they value one trait over another is not something I was contesting in the first place, and if they still don't like a character because that trait isn't there, then they still don't like that character. Simple as.

Quote

Let’s just take another look at what you quoted as being your main point:

Since you made it clear what your main argument is, I might as well clarify what I'm saying: I don't really agree that how "exchangeable" or "mutable" a character trait is necessarily dependent on how "set-in-stone" it is (which seems to mean "whether it appears in every depiction of the character or not"). I mean, you do kinda have a point, in the broad strokes, but...I still feel like it's ultimately subjective. Your opinion makes sense, but it's still just that: an opinion. If that's all you presented this as, I would be completely  fine with it. But the way you're asserting it, I can't help but feel that you're claiming it's an objective fact or something. Which it definitely isn't.

Again, it's an observation. If that still comes off as me claiming it as an objective fact,  then we're at an impasse here.

Quote

With this, I probably am going to bow out, for real this time. xP (But, no guarantees, sadly.) Sorry this was such a pain. I don't even care that badly about Sonic being a vagabond, ironically. To be honest, all I want is for you to confirm that that statement you yourself cite as your main point is indeed just your own subjective opinion. If you do that, I'll be 100% perfectly happy and satisfied. I don't even care if you prove that that's what you were always arguing and make me look like an idiot as a result. Literally all I want is for it to be made clear that this is not an objective fact, which I personally don't think you've really done yet, at least not very well. It's just a perfectly reasonable opinion, nothing more and nothing less. And incidentally, if you don't do that, I'm pretty much guaranteed to just give this up.

I'm going to confirm to you that that statement is just an observation of the character - not a fact, nor an opinion.

And honestly, I don't know what else to say to you at this point after confirming everything I meant as it is. Because I don't think you or others understand that not every point made has to do with whether or not it's that person's opinion or if something is an objective fact, and that sometimes it's a matter of simply being more open-minded and considerate to what's out there despite one's own opinions (to which I reiterate, I haven't been making). That's not saying that such traits being exchangeable is my personal opinion, that's not saying it's a fact that can't be argued with or something someone can't be displeased with, nor is that me trashing anyone else's opinions for doing so. Yet somehow, being that open-minded is confusing for you guys to realize that you've went and made things up out of nowhere over what I meant after continuous reiterating examples of where I'm coming from.

Like really, you're framing this as something very black and white like there's no other kind of understanding that can be made here. So what more can I even do make myself clear if that's the only context you're going to put my words into despite everything I've been telling you the entire time? And given all of this, if you ironically didn't care that badly about Sonic being a vagabond, then what in the world were all of you trying to prove arguing that it's important to some people when I never said it couldn't be? 

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Ian doesn't particularly like the Wild Thornberries, or even Nigel for that matter. I guess he just looked into the meme a bit, thought "Okay, I can make this work with the established personality and lineage" and packed it in quietly. Certainly, the usage of the phrase in SU#87 was by the far the most seamless implementation of a meme in a good while (aka better than how it was done in Mega Drive, Silver Age, Worlds Collide/Unite, Endangered Species, Chaotix Quest and the covers for this very arc).

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3 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Did anyone do spoilers for the new Universe issue yet? If not, I can do it.

Shattered Part 1? That's been out for awhile (And I have yet to receive it because for some reason Archie is now having trouble giving me what I order.)

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