Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We sorta had something likr that during the King Naugus arc where the people were distrustful of NICOLE, and Sonic was having no issues commiting outright treason to do the right thing and was only stopped because the council needed to assuage the citizens they were governing, which as much as Sonic was right, was not helping things in itself.

Honestly, if you want more grey morality (I know I most certainly do!), you'll need to use characters other than the FF or unambiguously heroic characters - Team Dark and the United Federation/GUN, are great choices since they're anti-heroes and all about making morally dubious actions even in the quest of doing the right thing. I think a gold mine for that would be Eggman and his Egg Bosses, but the direction of Eggman is too far away from anything grey, so you'd have to work with his Egg Bosses and their motives for siding with Eggman and not the Heroes. A shame really, because as much as I still enjoy this portrayal of him, a well-intentioned, yet extremely ruthless Eggman could work wonders for a story with greying morality.

[Sega DogTagz]

Well, if we are looking for Hero type's slipping up and paying the price for it, then Sonic was a lightning rod for that kind of development. There are so many instances where his brash behavior winded up costing him big time, and having a profound impact on his reputation. He's been ostracized, demonized, exiled and de-knighted as a result of some of the crap he pulled. When he was incarcerated after the event of mecha-madness, most of the FF crew had a hard time mustering up the trust to believe that he was innocent - just because they knew it was in his nature to go rouge. That plotline had ramifications all the way up through the first reboot. The council of Acorn had a member or two that felt it their sworn duty to keep him in check. He damaged his reputation that much. 

More recently, Ian has found a way to work around some stricter mandates too. Silver is a great example of this.

Here is a character, doing everything in his power to do what he think is right. His purity is untainted, his resolve is undoubtedly just, however his constant jumping to conclusions and his constant failure to produce any shred of significant evidence eventually pushed the people he was trying to protect to the edge. Silver made one mistake too many, at the worst possible time and Sonic literally exploded on him. He attacked him, called in a flake and "half the hero" the freedom fighters were. That spat scarred Silver's working relationship with Sonic so much that he had to resort to working underground under an alias in order to continue his mission. That drove a pretty big spike between Silver and the rest of the cast. When they next met up after that, Sonic and Amy were at his throat and it took some serious level heads to pry them off.

[Soniman]

Quote

 

When he was incarcerated after the event of mecha-madness, most of the FF crew had a hard time mustering up the trust to believe that he was innocent - just because they knew it was in his nature to go rouge.

 

Which was fucking stupid and I ALWAYS hated that plot point. Let's put aside that the Freedom Fighters should know better then ANYONE that Roboticization renders one completely mindless and subservient to Robotnik (so why on earth are they persecuting Sonic for it is beyond me). You'd think that they'd be a bit more trusting of ONE OF THEIR CLOSEST FRIENDS WHO HAS ALWAYS FOUGHT HIS HARDEST FOR THEM  AND ALWAYS PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO SAVE KNOTHOLE.  It's such shit ooc writing when only Amy iirc is the only one defending Sonic (who at that point has barely KNOWN Sonic), sure he could be a little reckless but I don't think that should bring the immediate assumption that HES WILLING TO BE TRAY HIS PEOPLE AT MOMENT'S NOTICE. You'd think Knothole, and especially the freedom fighters (SONIC'S CHILDHOOD FRIRNDS) would have a little more faith in him then that. 

It's such contrived bullshit just to justify having that story in the first place. At least with Endgame Sonic was framed so it makes more sense to have people not trusting him 

 

[Sega DogTagz]

4 hours ago, Soniman said:

 

Which was fucking stupid and I ALWAYS hated that plot point. Let's put aside that the Freedom Fighters should know better then ANYONE that Roboticization renders one completely mindless and subservient to Robotnik (so why on earth are they persecuting Sonic for it is beyond me). You'd think that they'd be a bit more trusting of ONE OF THEIR CLOSEST FRIENDS WHO HAS ALWAYS FOUGHT HIS HARDEST FOR THEM  AND ALWAYS PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO SAVE KNOTHOLE.  It's such shit ooc writing when only Amy iirc is the only one defending Sonic (who at that point has barely KNOWN Sonic), sure he could be a little reckless but I don't think that should bring the immediate assumption that HES WILLING TO BE TRAY HIS PEOPLE AT MOMENT'S NOTICE. You'd think Knothole, and especially the freedom fighters (SONIC'S CHILDHOOD FRIRNDS) would have a little more faith in him then that. 

It's such contrived bullshit just to justify having that story in the first place. At least with Endgame Sonic was framed so it makes more sense to have people not trusting him 

 

 

Ah, well I think you missed the point of that jail sentence.

Sonic was not jailed because he was robotisized. He was jailed because everyone in Knothole believed that he had gone off on his own to face Eggman, after he was specifically told not too, and ended up getting robotisized - thus leading to all the carnage.

Not an hour before he returned as Mecha Sonic, the Blue Blur had been rallying support for an attack on Eggman. He was more than confident that he could handle the task himself if he needed to, but he found no support for his cause, and was told to let the idea go, so he stormed off to blow some steam. It was at that point that he was secretly ambushed by Knack and brought in to Robotnik. As far as anyone could tell, Sonic simply ignored the direct order from everyone to not engage Eggman, and got himself robotizised. That's basically treason. No one believed him otherwise (besides Amy and Tails) and they had good reason to have pause because Sonic has a proven and reliable track record of being a loose cannon and what happened in the event shortly before he turned up robotisized was kind of circumstantial evidence x 1000. Even Sally, Bunnie and Antoine, his lifelong freinds would find it hard to trust him because on the surface it looked like a clean cut case of Sonic being Sonic.

 

 

[Soniman]

Yikes... Okay then I remembered the events wrong lmao, yeah you kinda screwed up Sonic 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Random point to make, but I always kind of wished Nicole's casual outfit from #221 had remained her main outfit from then on. Before the reboot occured, it felt more like a outfit that I'd see in a Sonic game, rather than the dress she always wore. 

It's odd for me, because while Nicole's my favourite Archie character, I always found her alternate designs to be superior to her normal design. Even Iron Nicole looked really cool in my opinion. It was like the mixture of a professional outfit from the mind of a A.I, and the traditional outfit that is traditional from the Iron Queen's kingdom.

Her post-reboot design is also really cool for taking design cues from the casual outfit I like the best, and applying new elements, and removing other ones. 

Alright, my tangent is over, feel free to continue the ongoing debate  

[KoDaiko]

6 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

We sorta had something likr that during the King Naugus arc where the people were distrustful of NICOLE, and Sonic was having no issues commiting outright treason to do the right thing and was only stopped because the council needed to assuage the citizens they were governing, which as much as Sonic was right, was not helping things in itself.

Honestly, if you want more grey morality (I know I most certainly do!), you'll need to use characters other than the FF or unambiguously heroic characters - Team Dark and the United Federation/GUN, are great choices since they're anti-heroes and all about making morally dubious actions even in the quest of doing the right thing. I think a gold mine for that would be Eggman and his Egg Bosses, but the direction of Eggman is too far away from anything grey, so you'd have to work with his Egg Bosses and their motives for siding with Eggman and not the Heroes. A shame really, because as much as I still enjoy this portrayal of him, a well-intentioned, yet extremely ruthless Eggman could work wonders for a story with greying morality.

I got confused on grey morality so I looked up, so it's when the characters are neither good nor bad? I think that is part of what I want. To me NICOLE was brainwashed and forced to do it so she doesn't deserve the distrust. But Sonic and the council fits in the "breakup from disagreement" (though it's not technically a breakup).

I really want the good guys do something bad (in character btw, maybe unintentional but by their own will) and then suffer for their action. Questioning the hero than making both sides grey. Like a cartoon episode where (one of) the hero(s) does something, realize they did wrong, and learn their lesson; but in the comic they can make it more serious, maybe not too much because it will affect the pacing and overall mood but they can make the event more in-depth and meaningful. I want the heros/FF messing up because the "good guys" messing up has more impact than those that are already known to occasionally do something bad. It's also that I don't like it when the good guys are considered always right and never face consequence for their action. I also want them to suffer. 

But I agree that the comic, especially the current one, has a lot of grey morality already on the enemy side. 

35 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

*talk about NICOLE's awesome outfit*

YES I AGREE, I LOVED the casual and Iron version than her usual pre-reboot. Didn't really understand why she chose a plain striped dress as her hologram outfit.

Post-reboot is ok, I don't love it as much as I did the alt. versions but looks better than pre-reboot and fits her cyber/holo-lynx character.

[QuantumEdge]

7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Ah, well I think you missed the point of that jail sentence.

Sonic was not jailed because he was robotisized. He was jailed because everyone in Knothole believed that he had gone off on his own to face Eggman, after he was specifically told not too, and ended up getting robotisized - thus leading to all the carnage.

Not an hour before he returned as Mecha Sonic, the Blue Blur had been rallying support for an attack on Eggman. He was more than confident that he could handle the task himself if he needed to, but he found no support for his cause, and was told to let the idea go, so he stormed off to blow some steam. It was at that point that he was secretly ambushed by Knack and brought in to Robotnik. As far as anyone could tell, Sonic simply ignored the direct order from everyone to not engage Eggman, and got himself robotizised. That's basically treason. No one believed him otherwise (besides Amy and Tails) and they had good reason to have pause because Sonic has a proven and reliable track record of being a loose cannon and what happened in the event shortly before he turned up robotisized was kind of circumstantial evidence x 1000. Even Sally, Bunnie and Antoine, his lifelong freinds would find it hard to trust him because on the surface it looked like a clean cut case of Sonic being Sonic.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I still find that a load of OOC bullcrud.  Yes, from their view he decided to not follow their instructions and go ahead with his plan anyway (because Sonic), only to end up with Mecha Madness happening.  However that's still not good enough a reason to persecute him like a treacherous criminal.  His idea was formed out of good intentions, but it was a bit boneheaded and he seemed to just straight up ignore their decision, so being angry at him is understandable, but putting him through jail and trial is ridiculously overkill.  I may enjoy that story, but it sure as hell ain't perfect.

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

YES I AGREE, I LOVED the casual and Iron version than her usual pre-reboot. Didn't really understand why she chose a plain striped dress as her hologram outfit.

Post-reboot is ok, I don't love it as much as I did the alt. versions but looks better than pre-reboot and fits her cyber/holo-lynx character.

I liked her original look the most. It gave her this foreign vibe, very unique to the others. Plus lack of shoes made it look like she's wants to feel the ground under her feet.

You know, why Nicole is so awesome? She's obviously one of the most popular Archie characters, yet she's just "AI that wants to be human" cliche we seen million times.

[QuantumEdge]

At last, I finally read Panic in the Sky.  It met my expectations and then some.  I don't know how, but part 1 alone somehow managed ample enough apology for the past few months of less then stellar stories.  The whole thing played like some downward spiral thrill ride.  I can completely understand why Ian wanted Diana to do this one.  She rocked the house once again with this.  What I don't think gets enough credit for is how brilliant she is at how to convey actions scenes.  They're so fluid and eye catching I can't ever seem to pick a favourite panel.  Top job start.

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

So if you look carefully at page one of issue 284...

There's a familiar looking ice cream right next to the other treats. that thing is everywhere nowadays.

 

[therealfalconpawnch77]

6 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I'm sorry, but I still find that a load of OOC bullcrud.  Yes, from their view he decided to not follow their instructions and go ahead with his plan anyway (because Sonic), only to end up with Mecha Madness happening.  However that's still not good enough a reason to persecute him like a treacherous criminal.  His idea was formed out of good intentions, but it was a bit boneheaded and he seemed to just straight up ignore their decision, so being angry at him is understandable, but putting him through jail and trial is ridiculously overkill.  I may enjoy that story, but it sure as hell ain't perfect.

At that point they were operating in a society, and if one breaks the law of a society one must face the consequences. It doesn't matter if treason is born of good intentions, it's still treason. They didn't need to act as angry and spiteful as they did, but Sonic would still have to face a trial for breaking the law.

[QuantumEdge]

2 minutes ago, therealfalconpawnch77 said:

At that point they were operating in a society, and if one breaks the law of a society one must face the consequences. It doesn't matter if treason is born of good intentions, it's still treason. They didn't need to act as angry and spiteful as they did, but Sonic would still have to face a trial for breaking the law.

Which is absolutely stupid because Sonic is the guy that provided the bulk of their victories.  Putting him on trial and possibly incarcerating him is pretty much saying you want to lose your fight against a tyrannical dictator.  I'm not saying they shouldn't have batted an eyelid, but they should have at least heard him out before deciding what action to use. 

[Sega DogTagz]

10 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I'm sorry, but I still find that a load of OOC bullcrud.  Yes, from their view he decided to not follow their instructions and go ahead with his plan anyway (because Sonic), only to end up with Mecha Madness happening.  However that's still not good enough a reason to persecute him like a treacherous criminal.  His idea was formed out of good intentions, but it was a bit boneheaded and he seemed to just straight up ignore their decision, so being angry at him is understandable, but putting him through jail and trial is ridiculously overkill.  I may enjoy that story, but it sure as hell ain't perfect.

How is it OOC exactly? Is it OOC that Bunnie, Sally and Antoine would expect Sonic to pull a stunt like this? Because I'd say that is perfectly in line with what they know about their friend. He's a bonna-fide rebel, a hothead and a loose cannon. I would more expect Sonic to ignore a direct order like that then to comply with it.

How is it OOC for the Knothole justice system to incarcerate Sonic? They've done it before - and they would do it again. Lets not forget he burned half of Knothole to the ground as Mecha-Sonic and forced the FF's to break their own moral code by robotisizing Knuckles.

Its a perfectly fine reason to prosecute him. Sonic isn't above the law any more than anyone else. For every "ends justify the means" argument you can make, someone else is more than ready to step in and make a "but at what cost" side argument.

The bottom line is, from their point of view, Sonic committed treason. That is not something to be taken lightly and it is not something you can overlook just because its Sonic. The rule of law has always been ahead of each of the heroes. There has always been consequences for when they went too far. Its for the same reason Sonic made a disguise for himself called the sneak when he went after the sword of acorns (because he knew he would be trialed as a criminal if anyone found out what he was doing). Sonic understands that their are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, he just crosses them anyway.

Putting him through trail was the best thing for him. It may have looked like a big song and dance, but lets not forget that like all fair trials, it gave him a chance to defend himself and clear his name. It DID give him a chance to be heard, as opposed to just throwing the book at him (which is pretty much the only other option available aside from slapping him on the wrist) What is so OOC about that? I think your just throwing that phrase around without merit here.

[QuantumEdge]

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

How is it OOC exactly? Is it OOC that Bunnie, Sally and Antoine would expect Sonic to pull a stunt like this? Because I'd say that is perfectly in line with what they know about their friend. He's a bonna-fide rebel, a hothead and a loose cannon. I would more expect Sonic to ignore a direct order like that then to comply with it.

How is it OOC for the Knothole justice system to incarcerate Sonic? They've done it before - and they would do it again. Lets not forget he burned half of Knothole to the ground as Mecha-Sonic and forced the FF's to break their own moral code by robotisizing Knuckles.

Its a perfectly fine reason to prosecute him. Sonic isn't above the law any more than anyone else. For every "ends justify the means" argument you can make, someone else is more than ready to step in and make a "but at what cost" side argument.

The bottom line is, from their point of view, Sonic committed treason. That is not something to be taken lightly and it is not something you can overlook just because its Sonic. The rule of law has always been ahead of each of the heroes. There has always been consequences for when they went too far. Its for the same reason Sonic made a disguise for himself called the sneak when he went after the sword of acorns (because he knew he would be trialed as a criminal if anyone found out what he was doing). Sonic understands that their are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, he just crosses them anyway.

Putting him through trail was the best thing for him. It may have looked like a big song and dance, but lets not forget that like all fair trials, it gave him a chance to defend himself and clear his name. It DID give him a chance to be heard, as opposed to just throwing the book at him (which is pretty much the only other option available aside from slapping him on the wrist) What is so OOC about that? I think your just throwing that phrase around without merit here.

I say OOC because they knew full well that Sonic was the one making total victory over Robotnik possible.  Throwing him in the clink would be one of the most counter productive things to do, yet they just go "Screw it" and do it anyway.  It doesn't help that the issue covering the trial weirdly reverted back to the comedic shenanigans tone from the way more dramatic story proceeding it.  I am not saying they shouldn't have done anything to reprimand him, but the story took that idea too far.  Also, the Sneak thing was also bad.  Frankly I consider it one the single most stupid things this comic has pulled and that's excluding the silly reasons that caused it to happen.  The problem is that law established in the comic felt more like an annoying, counter productive obstacle than something that felt wholly justified in limiting Sonic, or anyone else for that matter.

[Sega DogTagz]

4 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I say OOC because they knew full well that Sonic was the one making total victory over Robotnik possible.  Throwing him in the clink would be one of the most counter productive things to do, yet they just go "Screw it" and do it anyway.  It doesn't help that the issue covering the trial weirdly reverted back to the comedic shenanigans tone from the way more dramatic story proceeding it.  I am not saying they shouldn't have done anything to reprimand him, but the story took that idea too far.  Also, the Sneak thing was also bad.  Frankly I consider it one the single most stupid things this comic has pulled and that's excluding the silly reasons that caused it to happen.  The problem is that law established in the comic felt more like an annoying, counter productive obstacle than something that felt wholly justified in limiting Sonic, or anyone else for that matter.

Just because you don't like the idea of something doesn't mean its "out of character". You are horribly misusing the terminology here. Out-Of-Character implies an action or trait that is beyond the scope or the established history of that specific character. Antoine, Sally and Bunnie all had established history of holding up the law even when it was inconvenient to do so. Much like how Sally explained their situation with the Chaos Emeralds leading up the the current Shattered World saga, they were the heroes. They were looked upon as the ones who set the right examples. They had to do things the right way. The lawful way, even when the fate of the world is on the line. Sonic is not an exception to this. He never was, and he himself has never believed himself to be above it.

Just because he's the "Big Gun" does not provide him any sort of immunity from legal fouls. He should be expected to follow any proceeding that would befall anyone else in his position. Sure, Sonic was the ace in the hole against the Eggman empire, but that doesn't put him above the law. He was held accountable for his actions and given the chance to prove his innocence just like any other law abiding citizens would.

"The Sneak" also falls right into this line of thought. Sonic knew he was forbidden to go after the Sword of Acorns, however it is not in his nature to sit still. It was another example  of how in-character it is for him to break the rules and by hiding his identity while doing so it was an indirect omission that he understood what he was doing was against the law.

The law is always going to be an obstacle that stands in their way, as it usually is when laws for ordinary citizens are applied to superheroes. It would be 1000 times easier had Sonic stolen the Chaos Emerald from Breezie during the fighters arc, but that doesn't make it the right course of action. That's part of the burden of being the hero. You do things by the book or pay the consequences for doing otherwise.

There is nothing OOC about upholding law and order. If they didn't hold themselves accountable for these kinds of things then they would be no better than the Empire they are actively fighting.

[Your Vest Friend]

It sounds pretty OoC of him to be sneaking around when he knows he's in trouble, to be honest. SA2 had him like "lol whatever I'll do what I want anyway". 

[DabigRG]

3 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

It sounds pretty OoC of him to be sneaking around when he knows he's in trouble, to be honest. SA2 had him like "lol whatever I'll do what I want anyway". 

Not to play devil's advocate here, but I'm pretty sure that story was written before SA2 was released.

 

Also, running away from the police in public for a crime I didn't commit is different from avoiding being arrested for treason to the Kingdom of which I am a citizen.

[Sega DogTagz]

5 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

It sounds pretty OoC of him to be sneaking around when he knows he's in trouble, to be honest. SA2 had him like "lol whatever I'll do what I want anyway". 

Archie Sonic has a city and state to answer to. A country that at that point in time he was trying to re-establish.

Game Sonic has no loyalties or responsibilities beyond the ones he appoints to himself. His situation is different. His legal code is limited to what he thinks is right.

 

We already know SEGA Sonic =/= Archie Sonic. We don't need to go down that road again.

[Soniman]

After reading the (awesome) recent issue I just realized, Gemerl is probably a stand in for Shard, they have similar personalities and even color scheme 

[DabigRG]

55 minutes ago, Soniman said:

After reading the (awesome) recent issue I just realized, Gemerl is probably a stand in for Shard, they have similar personalities and even color scheme 

On a more serious note, the similarity makes sense considering the characters' backstories.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Just read #284. Great start for Panic in the Sky! And Nigel Acorn is a badass King.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know!

It's like they had a meeting that went:

• "Okay, so I figured I'd name the king 'Nigel,' but people might hate it. Any ideas how to make them like it?"
• "Ooh ooh! I know! Let's give him an awesome energy sword and shield combo, and make this motherfucker a badass!"
• "Done"

And it worked.

 

Also, regarding the above discussion with Sonic vs the law, while Sonic never considered himself above it that never really stopped him from going up against it to do the right thing. Sonic's character is more "I'll follow the law except when it's being stupid, in which case fuck that" which I think is a perfect way to describe his heroic, yet wildcard character.

[Soniman]

Nigel wouldve been more badass if he wasnt laid out in one hit

[QuantumEdge]

8 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Just because you don't like the idea of something doesn't mean its "out of character". You are horribly misusing the terminology here. Out-Of-Character implies an action or trait that is beyond the scope or the established history of that specific character. Antoine, Sally and Bunnie all had established history of holding up the law even when it was inconvenient to do so. Much like how Sally explained their situation with the Chaos Emeralds leading up the the current Shattered World saga, they were the heroes. They were looked upon as the ones who set the right examples. They had to do things the right way. The lawful way, even when the fate of the world is on the line. Sonic is not an exception to this. He never was, and he himself has never believed himself to be above it.

Just because he's the "Big Gun" does not provide him any sort of immunity from legal fouls. He should be expected to follow any proceeding that would befall anyone else in his position. Sure, Sonic was the ace in the hole against the Eggman empire, but that doesn't put him above the law. He was held accountable for his actions and given the chance to prove his innocence just like any other law abiding citizens would.

"The Sneak" also falls right into this line of thought. Sonic knew he was forbidden to go after the Sword of Acorns, however it is not in his nature to sit still. It was another example  of how in-character it is for him to break the rules and by hiding his identity while doing so it was an indirect omission that he understood what he was doing was against the law.

The law is always going to be an obstacle that stands in their way, as it usually is when laws for ordinary citizens are applied to superheroes. It would be 1000 times easier had Sonic stolen the Chaos Emerald from Breezie during the fighters arc, but that doesn't make it the right course of action. That's part of the burden of being the hero. You do things by the book or pay the consequences for doing otherwise.

There is nothing OOC about upholding law and order. If they didn't hold themselves accountable for these kinds of things then they would be no better than the Empire they are actively fighting.

I only use the term "OOC" because if you go back and read the aftermath issue, you'll find the FFs treat Sonic less of a friend that did wrong and more a total criminal they have no close connection with.  You can "Uphold the law" all you want, but it doesn't mean you have to be a complete jerk to the friend you're prosecuting.  You also say The Sneak was in character, yet if he was going in character, like CSS said, he'd have thought the law was being brainless and not have even bothered using a ridiculous alter ego, or followed the rule of him being isolated to Knothole.

Then there's the fact that if Sonic did go to jail, unable to prove his innocence, chances are Robotnik will have gained a worrying advantage.  It's why I think when you're dealing with a maniac dictator ruling your homeland, some sacrifice of law has to be made if it means your best weapon won't be spending a good while in prison.  And if breaking the law to save lives when the law is being a dunce still isn't justified to you, because apparently that would make them no better than Eggman (which I really don't think is the case), then I doubt we can really agree anywhere in this debate.