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8 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Just because you don't like the idea of something doesn't mean its "out of character". You are horribly misusing the terminology here. Out-Of-Character implies an action or trait that is beyond the scope or the established history of that specific character. Antoine, Sally and Bunnie all had established history of holding up the law even when it was inconvenient to do so. Much like how Sally explained their situation with the Chaos Emeralds leading up the the current Shattered World saga, they were the heroes. They were looked upon as the ones who set the right examples. They had to do things the right way. The lawful way, even when the fate of the world is on the line. Sonic is not an exception to this. He never was, and he himself has never believed himself to be above it.

Just because he's the "Big Gun" does not provide him any sort of immunity from legal fouls. He should be expected to follow any proceeding that would befall anyone else in his position. Sure, Sonic was the ace in the hole against the Eggman empire, but that doesn't put him above the law. He was held accountable for his actions and given the chance to prove his innocence just like any other law abiding citizens would.

"The Sneak" also falls right into this line of thought. Sonic knew he was forbidden to go after the Sword of Acorns, however it is not in his nature to sit still. It was another example  of how in-character it is for him to break the rules and by hiding his identity while doing so it was an indirect omission that he understood what he was doing was against the law.

The law is always going to be an obstacle that stands in their way, as it usually is when laws for ordinary citizens are applied to superheroes. It would be 1000 times easier had Sonic stolen the Chaos Emerald from Breezie during the fighters arc, but that doesn't make it the right course of action. That's part of the burden of being the hero. You do things by the book or pay the consequences for doing otherwise.

There is nothing OOC about upholding law and order. If they didn't hold themselves accountable for these kinds of things then they would be no better than the Empire they are actively fighting.

I only use the term "OOC" because if you go back and read the aftermath issue, you'll find the FFs treat Sonic less of a friend that did wrong and more a total criminal they have no close connection with.  You can "Uphold the law" all you want, but it doesn't mean you have to be a complete jerk to the friend you're prosecuting.  You also say The Sneak was in character, yet if he was going in character, like CSS said, he'd have thought the law was being brainless and not have even bothered using a ridiculous alter ego, or followed the rule of him being isolated to Knothole.

Then there's the fact that if Sonic did go to jail, unable to prove his innocence, chances are Robotnik will have gained a worrying advantage.  It's why I think when you're dealing with a maniac dictator ruling your homeland, some sacrifice of law has to be made if it means your best weapon won't be spending a good while in prison.  And if breaking the law to save lives when the law is being a dunce still isn't justified to you, because apparently that would make them no better than Eggman (which I really don't think is the case), then I doubt we can really agree anywhere in this debate.

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4 hours ago, Soniman said:

Nigel wouldve been more badass if he wasnt laid out in one hit

In fairness, that one hit came from a double ax handle delivered by one of the biggest (and probably strongest) guys in the series. Pretty sure most characters who aren't Big, Omega, or the like would probably be seeing stars after that one.

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9 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I only use the term "OOC" because if you go back and read the aftermath issue, you'll find the FFs treat Sonic less of a friend that did wrong and more a total criminal they have no close connection with.  You can "Uphold the law" all you want, but it doesn't mean you have to be a complete jerk to the friend you're prosecuting. 

Sally is the one who granted him the 24 hour pardon to clear his name, even after he was found guilty. To me, that sounds a heck of a lot like a friend looking out for a friend.

Sally told Amy in this very issue that no one is above the law. She did her part in upholding that law, but its not like they locked the hedgie up and threw away the key. In very in-character fashion, she found the loophole and Sonic spindashed through it.

 

9 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

You also say The Sneak was in character, yet if he was going in character, like CSS said, he'd have thought the law was being brainless and not have even bothered using a ridiculous alter ego, or followed the rule of him being isolated to Knothole.

We already know Sonic isn't the type to be confined, so that second option is mute. As for the first, that is pretty much exactly what he did. He took a direct order, and went behind the backs of his superiors to do what he thought was right. The Sneak outfit however, gave him the additional ability to help protect the secret service after they were lead astray by a garbled message.

"Sonic" wouldn't have been able to do that.

 

9 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

Then there's the fact that if Sonic did go to jail, unable to prove his innocence, chances are Robotnik will have gained a worrying advantage. 

You mean the same Eggman who had just lost quite a bit of his home base to a nuclear explosion? Yeeeeeah, I think they could spare 24 hours to get Sonic's trial underway.

 

 

9 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

It's why I think when you're dealing with a maniac dictator ruling your homeland, some sacrifice of law has to be made if it means your best weapon won't be spending a good while in prison.  And if breaking the law to save lives when the law is being a dunce still isn't justified to you, because apparently that would make them no better than Eggman (which I really don't think is the case), then I doubt we can really agree anywhere in this debate.

Just a side note, jail time was technically never on the table anyway. Sally clearly stated that Exile was to be the punishment for being guilty. If anything - they would be unleashing their loose cannon, no-holds-barred on the world. No more laws holding him back lol.

If you start sacrificing laws then you've already lost what your fighting for. The FF's were looking to re-establish a fair and just ruler free of Robotniks oppression. The second you establish Sonic as being above the law (which is what you inherently imply by sacrifice) then you've already eliminated the fair and just parts of that equation.

You can call it the greater good if you want, but Sally and most of the freedom fighters are on record in their solidarity of being held to the highest example. The Greater Good is only a starting off point. Sonic too, has stated that he doesn't do things the easy way. He does things the right way in order to build something bigger and better than himself. You don't do that by looking the other way at a war crime. You do that by being a pillar of stability in a time of crisis. Without the law, that stability is a crapshoot.

The FF don't break laws out of convenience. When they do, they are held accountable for their actions. That is the way its always been. That's the burden they carry as heroes. 

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31 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:
31 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Sally is the one who granted him the 24 hour pardon to clear his name, even after he was found guilty. To me, that sounds a heck of a lot like a friend looking out for a friend.

Sally told Amy in this very issue that no one is above the law. She did her part in upholding that law, but its not like they locked the hedgie up and threw away the key. In very in-character fashion, she found the loophole and Sonic spindashed through it.

Sally I'll admit was being more reasonable, but Bunnie was more aggressive than I thought she should have been and Antoine was being a complete jerk, more so than he usually was at the time.

31 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

We already know Sonic isn't the type to be confined, so that second option is mute. As for the first, that is pretty much exactly what he did. He took a direct order, and went behind the backs of his superiors to do what he thought was right. The Sneak outfit however, gave him the additional ability to help protect the secret service after they were lead astray by a garbled message.

"Sonic" wouldn't have been able to do that.

Not once has Sonic really come across to me as a guy who decides to do heroism as a Shinobi cosplayer.  The problem there though is formed from the bad stories being told beforehand that led to The Sneak's creation.  If it were to happen through a superior story, then I'd relent a little, but what we got didn't feel fitting for his character.  It's my belief that he'd probably continue the whole heroism thing, since he'd only find being banned to Knothole completely unfair.  It would have been more fitting of him to just operate outside of Knothole instead, preferring to stay out then in.

31 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You mean the same Eggman who had just lost quite a bit of his home base to a nuclear explosion? Yeeeeeah, I think they could spare 24 hours to get Sonic's trial underway.

Fair point, but he's proven to bounce back at an alarming rate.

31 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

 

Just a side note, jail time was technically never on the table anyway. Sally clearly stated that Exile was to be the punishment for being guilty. If anything - they would be unleashing their loose cannon, no-holds-barred on the world. No more laws holding him back lol.

If you start sacrificing laws then you've already lost what your fighting for. The FF's were looking to re-establish a fair and just ruler free of Robotniks oppression. The second you establish Sonic as being above the law (which is what you inherently imply by sacrifice) then you've already eliminated the fair and just parts of that equation.

You can call it the greater good if you want, but Sally and most of the freedom fighters are on record in their solidarity of being held to the highest example. The Greater Good is only a starting off point. Sonic too, has stated that he doesn't do things the easy way. He does things the right way in order to build something bigger and better than himself. You don't do that by looking the other way at a war crime. You do that by being a pillar of stability in a time of crisis. Without the law, that stability is a crapshoot.

The FF don't break laws out of convenience. When they do, they are held accountable for their actions. That is the way its always been. That's the burden they carry as heroes. 

All right, I'm someone that's willing to concede that I misremembered the type of punishment up for grabs, so I humbly give you the point there.  However I think sometimes there are circumstances, where the law is more limiting and problematic than helpful and prosperous, that make it reasonable for the FFs to go above it.  It's all a matter of how great an outcome is in defying the law to some extent.  It's something that could have made that issue a really good, unique read.  Trouble is, Mike Gallagher couldn't stick to one tone and even if he did, he never was the sort of writer that could properly handle those kinds of themes and ideas in a Sonic book.  Comedy and action was always his penchant.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

Sally I'll admit was being more reasonable, but Bunnie was more aggressive than I thought she should have been and Antoine was being a complete jerk, more so than he usually was at the time.

Bunnie was a bit aggressive, but then again she kind of had to be. She got the short end of the stick and had to be Sonic's bailiff. It was her job to keep the fastest thing alive from getting up and running away... heh, she was doomed. I would have liked to see some more compassion on her end, but then again I don't look up at bouncers and bailiffs to expect a friendly face either.

As for Ant, well if memory serves correctly, he always had a not-so-secret rivalry/jealousy thing going on with Sonic. Even though they both considered each other friends he never failed to miss an opportunity to drag Sonic's name through the mud and make himself look good. Thats kind of the dynamic they always had - particularly so when it came to legal matters like this.

Antoine clearly played the villain for this scene, but was it outside the lines for him? He's always looking for chinks in Sonic's armor and we all know he really likes playing the lawyer. (I still remember him "badgering" poor Amy lol)

 

3 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

Not once has Sonic really come across to me as a guy who decides to do heroism as a Shinobi cosplayer.  The problem there though is formed from the bad stories being told beforehand that led to The Sneak's creation.  If it were to happen through a superior story, then I'd relent a little, but what we got didn't feel fitting for his character.  It's my belief that he'd probably continue the whole heroism thing, since he'd only find being banned to Knothole completely unfair.  It would have been more fitting of him to just operate outside of Knothole instead, preferring to stay out then in.

Well, if the stories before hand are what are making you feel that way, as opposed to a general perception of the character, then I can't really argue with that. You completely entitled to interpret it in a way that makes sense to you.

To me, the Sneak was a way for him to continue his heroics, without putting the people around him in additional danger. It was short lived, but it ended up serving its purpose pretty well.

 

3 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

Fair point, but he's proven to bounce back at an alarming rate.

True. But I can't think of an event before issue #40 that set him back quite that far. He did call it "the biggest backfire of his illustrious career".

 

3 minutes ago, QuantumEdge said:

All right, I'm someone that's willing to concede that I misremembered the type of punishment up for grabs, so I humbly give you the point there.  However I think sometimes there are circumstances, where the law is more limiting and problematic than helpful and prosperous, that make it reasonable for the FFs to go above it.  It's all a matter of how great an outcome is in defying the law to some extent.  It's something that could have made that issue a really good, unique read.  Trouble is, Mike Gallagher couldn't stick to one tone and even if he did, he never was the sort of writer that could properly handle those kinds of themes and ideas in a Sonic book.  Comedy and action was always his penchant.

And there in lies the problem with the times. The comic's didn't really know what they wanted to be. We got serious stories mixed in every other issue with slapstick comedy and bad puns. Its hard to pinpoint the line what we were expected to take seriously and what was simply made for show.

Perhaps that's one way to look at Antoine's character from the problem above. Perhaps he was exaggerated into a caricature of himself for the sake of driving the story (it was either that, or invent a new character I guess)

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13 hours ago, Soniman said:

Nigel wouldve been more badass if he wasnt laid out in one hit

9 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

In fairness, that one hit came from a double ax handle delivered by one of the biggest (and probably strongest) guys in the series. Pretty sure most characters who aren't Big, Omega, or the like would probably be seeing stars after that one.

This is actually something I hope is kept in mind for future stories. King Acorn is, at best, a slightly Iron Weight character with technological weapons. Bark, on the other hand, is an Abnormal Weight game character who, in the comics' context, was powerful enough to give Knuckles a problem before finally losing because Knuckles is faster and much more skilled. No matter how awesome the moment is, there is still a clear power difference that should be taken into account.

The same thing applies to Sally: while she is a younger and much more active member of the Freedom Fighters, that didn't change the fact that she was essentially an athlete with similar weaponry up against Speedy, who was established preboot as being just as powerful as the BattleLord in his youth(minus the Super Strength, presumbably) and who was using a mechanized battle armor in the same issue. So, was it any wonder she got rammed into the cell within seconds?

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46 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Bunnie was a bit aggressive, but then again she kind of had to be. She got the short end of the stick and had to be Sonic's bailiff. It was her job to keep the fastest thing alive from getting up and running away... heh, she was doomed. I would have liked to see some more compassion on her end, but then again I don't look up at bouncers and bailiffs to expect a friendly face either.

As for Ant, well if memory serves correctly, he always had a not-so-secret rivalry/jealousy thing going on with Sonic. Even though they both considered each other friends he never failed to miss an opportunity to drag Sonic's name through the mud and make himself look good. Thats kind of the dynamic they always had - particularly so when it came to legal matters like this.

Antoine clearly played the villain for this scene, but was it outside the lines for him? He's always looking for chinks in Sonic's armor and we all know he really likes playing the lawyer. (I still remember him "badgering" poor Amy lol)

I don't know, Bunnie always seemed too laid back in character to be that threatening to Sonic.  I know her role involves some form of toughness, but it is her friend on trial, not some common criminal like Nack.

Antoine provided one of the biggest problems, because his role is obviously played for the comedy, pun driven stories Gallagher is known for, but it just doesn't fit the scenario where nearly everyone else is taking things in a more serious manner.  I understand it's within his character to find some way to knock Sonic, but I think the whole comedic unprofessionalism was taken too far in a story that wasn't really in need of it (although I will admit, the "Badgering" bit is funny, but I digress).

46 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Well, if the stories before hand are what are making you feel that way, as opposed to a general perception of the character, then I can't really argue with that. You completely entitled to interpret it in a way that makes sense to you.

To me, the Sneak was a way for him to continue his heroics, without putting the people around him in additional danger. It was short lived, but it ended up serving its purpose pretty well.

One positive I will say is that its purpose didn't take long to be served.  And as much as I didn't like it, I'd still take it over the high school malarkey they shoved out around the same time.

46 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

True. But I can't think of an event before issue #40 that set him back quite that far. He did call it "the biggest backfire of his illustrious career".

Nothing I can recall, so I guess the loss had some weight to it.  However it only took about ten issue for his big Endgame plan to happen, so I don't think it was a crippling blow.

46 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

And there in lies the problem with the times. The comic's didn't really know what they wanted to be. We got serious stories mixed in every other issue with slapstick comedy and bad puns. Its hard to pinpoint the line what we were expected to take seriously and what was simply made for show.

Perhaps that's one way to look at Antoine's character from the problem above. Perhaps he was exaggerated into a caricature of himself for the sake of driving the story (it was either that, or invent a new character I guess)

And that I think is something we can agree on at last.  Mecha Madness is probably one of the first big steps in driving the comic down the darker, SatAM route, but its aftermath story was proof the transition was not so much a smooth change from 3rd gear to 4th, but more a jerky shift from 1st to 2nd.  It proved that not being tonally consistent could make for some bad repercussions, story wise.  There's a good storytelling lesson in there, which is why I can't really hate it.  It annoys me at times, sure, but I admire its entertainment value and tried to bring up glimmers of more complex themes, despite them being a little out of its intellectual grasp.

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8 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Bunnie was a bit aggressive, but then again she kind of had to be. She got the short end of the stick and had to be Sonic's bailiff. It was her job to keep the fastest thing alive from getting up and running away... heh, she was doomed. I would have liked to see some more compassion on her end, but then again I don't look up at bouncers and bailiffs to expect a friendly face either.

As for Ant, well if memory serves correctly, he always had a not-so-secret rivalry/jealousy thing going on with Sonic. Even though they both considered each other friends he never failed to miss an opportunity to drag Sonic's name through the mud and make himself look good. Thats kind of the dynamic they always had - particularly so when it came to legal matters like this.

Antoine clearly played the villain for this scene, but was it outside the lines for him? He's always looking for chinks in Sonic's armor and we all know he really likes playing the lawyer. (I still remember him "badgering" poor Amy lol)

 

Well, if the stories before hand are what are making you feel that way, as opposed to a general perception of the character, then I can't really argue with that. You completely entitled to interpret it in a way that makes sense to you.

To me, the Sneak was a way for him to continue his heroics, without putting the people around him in additional danger. It was short lived, but it ended up serving its purpose pretty well.

 

True. But I can't think of an event before issue #40 that set him back quite that far. He did call it "the biggest backfire of his illustrious career".

 

And there in lies the problem with the times. The comic's didn't really know what they wanted to be. We got serious stories mixed in every other issue with slapstick comedy and bad puns. Its hard to pinpoint the line what we were expected to take seriously and what was simply made for show.

Perhaps that's one way to look at Antoine's character from the problem above. Perhaps he was exaggerated into a caricature of himself for the sake of driving the story (it was either that, or invent a new character I guess)

How about a lawyer who's some sort of killer whale? ;P

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5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Question about StH284: Did Eggman send the video to BattleKukku?

Good questions. I could swear 283 implies that he missed part about Chip, yet he send Speedy to kidnap him. I guess next issues will explain it.

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Finally got issues 283 & 284 today.

Just a few thoughts:

Spoiler

-"The Mission" was a nice breather issue. It felt like a recap of everything the Freedom Fighters have gone through these past three years, and it was great to see all their old friends along with the new allies they've made.

-Phage went out of her way to send spam emails to all of G.U.N. That's pretty funny.

-D'awww, Eggman really does care for Metal Sonic. Too bad the feeling doesn't seem to be mutual.

-As for "Panic in the Sky, Part 1": ...WOW. Eggman is really not messing around this time. It really feels like he's been constantly throwing everything he has at his enemies ever since Worlds Collide, and that's awesome: He REALLY doesn't want this scheme to fail! The guy really does get an A for effort!

-"Nigel" Acorn? And he has a sword and shield made out of lasers? It's official: He's now the best Freedom Fighter parent. Much better than pre-reboot, where he just sat in a wheelchair and tried to force his political beliefs on everyone (And nearly ruined his daughter's life)

-Gemerl seems to be the new Shard, and I'm actually cool with that. Now, if we could just get replacements for Beauregard, Matilda, and Thrash, I'd be willing to let the entire pre-reboot universe go.

So yeah, I'm really looking forward to the end of this ongoing saga! I just hope we get some interesting twists on the Egg Dragoon and Dark Gaia fights!

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8 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Preview for Waves of Change TP got released. Most of it has been seen before, but curiously one of the preview pages was a concept art page.

SonicTheHedgehogVol3_WavesOfChange-98.jp

Interesting to see how Coral's design has changed from the concept art. I rather liked Evan Stanley's take on it and how it incorporated Betta anatomy.

Also, I wasn't expecting to see the term "Mobian" used again. I thought it would've become obsolete now that they can't call the world Mobius anymore.

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4 hours ago, Forte-Metallix said:

Finally got issues 283 & 284 today.

Just a few thoughts:

  Hide contents

-Phage went out of her way to send spam emails to all of G.U.N. That's pretty funny.

 

-Gemerl seems to be the new Shard, and I'm actually cool with that. Now, if we could just get replacements for Beauregard, Matilda, and Thrash, I'd be willing to let the entire pre-reboot universe go.

 

Oh, is that what she did? My mental voice acting didn't get that across very well.

 

Personally, I'd rather just have him back instead. Though, one could argue Tundra, Maw,and Nixus fill similar roles.

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It'd help if we had access to a bit more information, but just based on the very little we do know, for now I'm going to go with this being a copyright/trademark troll hoping for an easy settlement.

Also, don't forget: Statute of limitations is a thing.  With copyright law, that usually covers anything up to three years before the lawsuit was filed.  As far as I know, Mogul's only appearances since August 2013 were in Sonic Legacy Books 3 and 4.  Even if they're going after those, they presumably can't get much aside from some minor royalties.

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8 hours ago, Tylinos said:

It'd help if we had access to a bit more information, but just based on the very little we do know, for now I'm going to go with this being a copyright/trademark troll hoping for an easy settlement.

Also, don't forget: Statute of limitations is a thing.  With copyright law, that usually covers anything up to three years before the lawsuit was filed.  As far as I know, Mogul's only appearances since August 2013 were in Sonic Legacy Books 3 and 4.  Even if they're going after those, they presumably can't get much aside from some minor royalties.

Apparently, except when you're aiming at the digital copies. Those are apparently fair game.

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You know, I'm starting to wonder when Babylon Rouge will show up. It didn't bothered me at first, they're not priority, but I realized that we had Gemerl, Vanila, Silver Sonic, Omochao, Honey, Wendy, , friccking Madonna, pretty much everyone who isn't dead or from other dimension (and we still got Marine, Whiskers, Chaos, Black Doom in flashback etc). Only ones missing are Heavy & Bomb, Yacker, Nega and Elise (and we know why last two won't show up).

That off panel from StH 251 (end of Collide) seems petty now.

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1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You know, I'm starting to wonder when Babylon Rouge will show up. It didn't bothered me at first, they're not priority, but I realized that we had Gemerl, Vanila, Silver Sonic, Omochao, Honey, Wendy, , friccking Madonna, pretty much everyone who isn't dead or from other dimension (and we still got Marine, Whiskers, Chaos, Black Doom in flashback etc). Only ones missing are Heavy & Bomb, Yacker, Nega and Elise (and we know why last two won't show up).

That off panel from StH 251 (end of Collide) seems petty now.

Why?

1 hour ago, VEDJ-F said:

Well, we know Heavy and Bomb aren't going to show up at least, and Nega's still up in the air as of now.

...I'd still would rather have had a Rogue arc to another Chaotix arc after the SWC. 

...Really!?

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