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2 hours ago, Sen said:

If Superman and Captain America can write fresh and interesting stories seventy plus years after their debut then Sonic can keep doing it for half that.

Well, more recently Cap is doing it by being a literal nazi... Though, to Marvel's credit, Hydra!Cap is a surprisingly compelling villain/anti-villain in his own right.

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The problem comes when you change something so much and mix it up to the point that it no longer resembles the thing that everyone loved to begin with. Comics in general have been very guilty of this, in my opinion, and it's one of the things that DC has been trying to undo, successfully or not, with Rebirth. Marvel, I think, is still continuously falling into the change-for-change's-sake trap (along with some heavy-handed affirmative action), and it's reeking havoc on their brand.

I would actually prefer that Archie work with things more organically, keeping the things that we love, and only changing things slowly over time or, infrequently, quickly for a very short period of time before resetting back to the proper status quo. I.e., It'd be fun for Eggman to win and take over the world for a while, but having that as a new status quo wouldn't reflect the modern comic as it's supposed to be.

I don't need things constantly changing—I just need good stories that showcase the characters I love in an interesting way. I don't mean to pick anyone out or offend anyone here, but it's easy for an outsider to say things need to change, and I'd be curious how many people who think that regularly read the book now as it is.

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Ok So 

One. Marvel untill very recently marvel often didn't just remove things from their brand, they often continued to exists, only in very specific universe altering circumstances ( like the terrible one more day for example ) were things just, removed. 

Two, Rebirth isn't undoing a lot of stuff, its melding the new 52 ( the parts that worked) with replacements, so this isn't undoing so much as replacing some bad parts. Its still very different than what cam before in a lot of ways, especially with the whole " watchmen are now canon " thing they got going.  That isn't to say they aren't bringing stuff back, but there's just too much new stuff  being rolled in with the old to say that's its just " fixing that" Superboy is now... a 10 year old. And the robin he will form a relationship is damien rather Tim Drake. This is being rolled in with pre new 52 superman. 

three, what in the hell do you even mean with " heavy handed affirmative action" because that sounds... really bad, and kind of racist/sexist/homophobic, so imma give you a chance to explain yaself. 

 

 

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Hey, man. Not trying to start an argument here—just stating an opinion; no need to get vulgar. You look at the Marvel lineup now, and it's not the same as the lineup everyone used to love: Logan is old, Captain America is possibly a Nazi and has the wrong shield, Spider-Man is a billionaire and has a silly glowing spider emblem, the Hulk isn't Bruce Banner, Thor is a Woman, Miles Morales is called Spider-Man in addition to Peter Parker also still being Spider-Man (we couldn't just give one of them a different hero name).

I could probably go on, but I'm kind of out of the loop now. Point is, a lot of these things might be okay for a time, but all of them at once, and it's not the same Marvel universe with the same characters that everyone loved. Change so much in an ongoing story, and you eventually have to awkwardly backpedal, in which case you're further convoluting things when things probably shouldn't have gone so off-the-rails in the first place.

Same thing with DC, from what I understand. People didn't like how it was so dark for every character, including Superman, who'd also become an blue-jean-wearing emo. Classic Wally was gone, Green Arrow was too young and didn't have his signature blond beard, so DC made rebirth to bring back the stuff that everyone liked. I would argue that some of that stuff shouldn't have changed in the first place.

All I'm saying, I think, is that you need to stay true to your brand and what people like about it and that there is such a thing as too much change. I honestly find this topic of conversation very interesting.

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Again, it might be less that they're unwilling to talk about it and more that they're unable to do so until things finish getting worked out.

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1 hour ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Off-topic but those Little Sabrina covers are adorable.

I have to admit I'm interested. I haven't read much of Art Baltazar's work (Outside Gorilla Gorilla back in the Disney Adventures days) but I love his style. It's adorable and looks like something a kid would do which works perfectly for what he tends to do.

Plus that Evan Stanley cover is great.

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I could probably go on, but I'm kind of out of the loop now. Point is, a lot of these things might be okay for a time, but all of them at once, and it's not the same Marvel universe with the same characters that everyone loved.

But people like it now. 

Things change, if you don't like the new direction that's fine. But " affirmative action" has unfortunate implications. It is suggesting that the idea of characters who aren't, say white dudes being put in roles of power are the things that's bad. One I disagree, because i'm not a white dude, but two , things change? Super heroes have been static for decades, i'm ok with things changing as long as they make it interesting. Aside from Carol Danvers , they seem to be. I don't think that's what you meant though, or at least I hope so. So if that isn't what you meant , sorry for getting aggro. 

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3 hours ago, johnboy3434 said:

Wow, the tonal shift between issues 16 and 17 is very noticeable. As much as I loved the unrestrained goofiness, I'm looking forward to a bit more drama.

The changes are relatively subtle at first but before you know it the goofiness will give way to the darker tone that SATAM was known for. I find that #21, the issue where Sonic battles E.V.E, marks the point where the move towards a darker tone becomes most obvious.

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11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

But people like it now. 

Things change, if you don't like the new direction that's fine. But " affirmative action" has unfortunate implications. It is suggesting that the idea of characters who aren't, say white dudes being put in roles of power are the things that's bad. One I disagree, because i'm not a white dude, but two , things change? Super heroes have been static for decades, i'm ok with things changing as long as they make it interesting. Aside from Carol Danvers , they seem to be. I don't think that's what you meant though, or at least I hope so. So if that isn't what you meant , sorry for getting aggro. 

Sorry. I thought we might have some confusion regarding my affirmative action comment. I'm not saying we can't have characters who aren't "white men"; what I am saying is that getting rid of beloved characters or pushing them aside because they ARE "white men" is unfortunate. "Race" shouldn't be a disqualifier. I would say the same thing about "black" characters turning into our being replaced by "white" ones--just let the characters be who and what they are.

Actually, this whole topic tends to get a bit awkward, as it forces people to use terms like "race", "white", "black", etc., when in reality there is only one human race, and there are no white people (more like light pink) or black people (so far as I've seen--just darker brown). It's all just genes and melanin, which really aren't very black and white at all (sorry, I couldn't resist the pun).

I'm sure there are plenty who like the current Marvel comics, but I'm equally sure there are others like me who open a Hulk book wanting to read about Bruce Banner. We like our characters for who and what they are, and constant change can unfortunately tend to undermine that.

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2 hours ago, Borvoc said:

 

I'm sure there are plenty who like the current Marvel comics, but I'm equally sure there are others like me who open a Hulk book wanting to read about Bruce Banner. We like our characters for who and what they are, and constant change can unfortunately tend to undermine that.

I get you , but I would understand this complaint more if it were DC. Again marvel doesn't often go through constant change, they either just add more, or start new universe's and timelines. This stuff with cho is pretty new, and them bringing miles into the main universe and stuff. And I like it, myself but I mean there are whole decades of regular content you can go back on. 

But I get you, different versions of things have to justify themselves in a sense, I feel that sonic boom in a lot of ways has yet to do this besides " this is different" and you can't just build a series off of " this is different" it also has to be interesting. 

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I get you , but I would understand this complaint more if it were DC. Again marvel doesn't often go through constant change, they either just add more, or start new universe's and timelines. This stuff with cho is pretty new, and them bringing miles into the main universe and stuff. And I like it, myself but I mean there are whole decades of regular content you can go back on. 

But I get you, different versions of things have to justify themselves in a sense, I feel that sonic boom in a lot of ways has yet to do this besides " this is different" and you can't just build a series off of " this is different" it also has to be interesting. 

I hear ya'. Boom confuses me too, but maybe it's best thought of as a product if its circumstances: a low-buddget, third-party, Westernification of the property that bombed its first attempt (due to complicated circumstances) and then took an almost immediate left turn into comedy due to the DS games being written by the writers of Colors and Lost World and the TV show's writers putting their own comedic style into the show.

Boom isn't for me, but I have nothing against it so long as it doesn't replace the primary universe created by Sega, which it's not going to. They're adding a new version of Sonic that doesn't resonate with me, but they're not taking away the version I do like. My main problem with Marvel isn't that they're adding new things but that they're taking away, changing, or misrepresenting the old things that people liked. I could complain about DC too, but I didn't start reading until New 52, and Rebirth seems to be addressing some complaints. Full disclosure: I've dropped both Marvel and DC as far as their current stuff goes (Marvel since shortly after Spider-Verse and DC after they killed off *coughcough* Bruce), and I've never been as big a comic reader as I'm sure many are. I'm happy for the people who do like, and have time to read, the current stuff.

I suppose I'm done being pedantic (thanks, Sen for the word) on this topic. People can like what they want, and no matter how strongly I feel about something, it's all just fiction, and we can all just take it or leave it.

Maybe we'll get some news on the status of the Sonic comic soon...

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You know, I remember a thread of conversation about someone wondering if the comic could continue for years to come from a few days ago, and people responded about how the comic writer still had plenty of ideas for the comic to last for yonks. This is true, and even if he did start running out there are at least three regular staffers who have done writing duties themselves who could contribute ideas. 

But that does lead me to another question, and one more pertinent to what's going on; in hindsight, how has the comic gotten away with not conforming to the brand styles for so long?

-Between 1993 and 1999 I can perfectly get; there was no real set standard in the West, so it was a free-for-all.

-Between 1999 and 2006 I can get too; SoJ decided to finally streamline the games by bringing in a standard, but the comic was pretty much entirely ignored at this time so it was out of that branding bubble.

But from 2006 onwards? They've been getting more and more tough on having that unified image, I think Sonic 06 may have forced them to regroup and rethink their approach to things. And despite this, they've still been pretty lax on the mandates, even if comic fans think they've been tough. There was still romance in the game cast when it got all but eliminated after 2006 (and wouldn't finally be axed until seven years later), characters that SEGA deem as irrelevant to the brand now are still seen regularly, the classic and modern brands are mixed together in the Archie continuity (it's not that simple in the game branding), etc).

Okay, so why do I bring this up? Well, I've been batting around one possible scenario in my mind, one that wouldn't necessitate cancellation but would explain why Archie and SEGA are taking so long in negotiating the license again. Basically, I'm wondering if, post-Boom, SEGA are pulling the branding even tighter than before (like after the last major disaster of 2006), and now want Archie to conform more. Archie would be reluctant to agree to those terms possibly because that would mean a hell of a lot of rewriting of the comic, possibly even to the point of throwing everything of the reboot out to make it even more game-centric (which wouldn't be a cancellation, but I'd argue would sting comic fans just as much). And if that is the case, I see SEGA being far more reluctant to just let it continue as normal in its current form. 

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2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

 

Okay, so why do I bring this up? Well, I've been batting around one possible scenario in my mind, one that wouldn't necessitate cancellation but would explain why Archie and SEGA are taking so long in negotiating the license again. Basically, I'm wondering if, post-Boom, SEGA are pulling the branding even tighter than before (like after the last major disaster of 2006), and now want Archie to conform more. Archie would be reluctant to agree to those terms possibly because that would mean a hell of a lot of rewriting of the comic, possibly even to the point of throwing everything of the reboot out to make it even more game-centric (which wouldn't be a cancellation, but I'd argue would sting comic fans just as much). And if that is the case, I see SEGA being far more reluctant to just let it continue as normal in its current form. 

wasn't the original rumor about cancellation, about that?

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2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Yes and no. It was more "SoJ aren't happy with SoA for Boom, so they're strongarming the franchise and therefore axing the comic altogether". 

That would personally make more sense to me than the brand having been tightened because of Sonic '06 or because of the comic, as those two, I think, are much more faithful to the Sonic brand than Boom is (again, not saying Boom is bad--even if it's not for me--just that the characters don't look or act like their game counterparts). Hogfather brought it up earlier about how the comics stray from the style guides, but I'm still unclear on that. In the comics, the game characters look and behave just like they're supposed to--especially post 252. Sure, the comic goes the extra mile of putting in extra characters, both from Sega's history and original to Archie, etc., and in fleshing out the world, but again, I think that's necessary for a comic book. You need the world for the story to exist in and the extra characters hanging around more so than you would in a game, where gameplay is the focus. The extra nods in the comics to the history of the franchise also serve as a form of reward to longtime fans, who can say, "Hey! That's Mighty! I remember him!", etc. I don't really understand how adding little things like that without misrepresenting the primary characters or anything like that would be counted as going against style guides. Maybe someone can  help me out there. What specifically are the comics doing that Sega doesn't like?

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Answering this bit by bit to be as thorough and clear as possible. 

55 minutes ago, Borvoc said:

That would personally make more sense to me than the brand having been tightened because of Sonic '06 or because of the comic, as those two, I think, are much more faithful to the Sonic brand than Boom is (again, not saying Boom is bad--even if it's not for me--just that the characters don't look or act like their game counterparts).

Sonic 06 was faithful at the time, but the reaction against it was so bad that it certainly at minimum caused a rethink of the approach of the franchise. It's actually kinda funny that I've been thinking about this for a few days as the recent Did You Know on Mario and Sonic mentioned that games like Mario and Sonic Original and Sonic and the Secret Rings were intended to get away from the heavier style of story that Sonic 06 had. That's likely why things like romance were cut out of the games wholesale, with Amy's crush on Sonic being more of a gag than, say, what Sonic X did with it, and notably I think Rouge's crush on Knuckles was more or less nixed. 

Boom is a special case in that it's got its own brand identity, away from what modern and classic do. Many people think the redesigns were unnecessary, but I would suggest that the redesigns define more than just the characters themselves, but also all the rules and mandates that differ between it and the other branches. However, it not working out would still probably call for a strategy rethink considering it's occupied three years of the franchise now. 

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Hogfather brought it up earlier about how the comics stray from the style guides, but I'm still unclear on that. In the comics, the game characters look and behave just like they're supposed to--especially post 252.

I'd argue that they don't exactly, because even with the reboot there are still quirks that differ, either through the comics just wanting to add flourish or the interpretations of Japanese and Western writers being different. But whether it's the list of nitpicks I have with how the Chaotix are portrayed, or a bigger more controversial statement like me thinking that Amy being supportive of Knuckles would be out of character for her game self, I don't think that is a big part of the overall picture. 

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Sure, the comic goes the extra mile of putting in extra characters, both from Sega's history and original to Archie, etc., and in fleshing out the world, but again, I think that's necessary for a comic book. You need the world for the story to exist in and the extra characters hanging around more so than you would in a game, where gameplay is the focus.

You do, but it could be argued that they're too much of it. I mean, the FFs, even with giving more to Sonic, Tails and Team Rose, still form a large part of the book and are half the main cast of the main book. And interactions between game cast to game cast haven't exactly been huge (some characters being worse offenders than others, like Silver having interacted with only Sonic, or Blaze being only shown in her world and having Amy and Cream once, or the complete absence of the Rogues that I keep mentioning from time to time). It's a tricky balance, and while I'm sure Archie fans are sick of seeing this, it is something worth considering from the perspective of the licencor. 

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The extra nods in the comics to the history of the franchise also serve as a form of reward to longtime fans, who can say, "Hey! That's Mighty! I remember him!", etc. I don't really understand how adding little things like that without misrepresenting the primary characters or anything like that would be counted as going against style guides.

Believe it or not, they do actually have rules concerning the usage of the old characters game-wise. We've seen it in merchandising countless times as old concepts are proposed and are rejected due to the character not being in the brand image any more (notably Metal Knuckles during the Jazwares period). Iizuka has even said on occasions that the characters aren't part of the franchise any more, hence why he said that they'd need to reintroduce them as new if they were ever to bring them back. The Tails Doll in Lego Dimensions was a one-off exception, but that probably stemmed from a combination of that character in particular being memetic, Lego Dimensions not really being considered in canon with the brand, and it being a little token of appreciation for Traveler's Tales, who made Sonic R all those years before the Lego game branch was even an idea on the table. 

Meanwhile, the comic has them wandering around all fine and dandy, even with redesigns to better fit the modern image, despite the main franchise actively pushing them out (in the case of Bean and Bark, I think they basically got absorbed into AM2's franchising). Technically, that goes against the style guide. 

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Maybe someone can  help me out there. What specifically are the comics doing that Sega doesn't like?

Could be a combo of those things, could be something else, could be that none of this is true in the end and they're actually okay with it still for now, it's all really speaking from a hypothetical position at the minute and exploring the ways they may have issue with it.

Before I finish, I'll clarify why modern and classic might be an issue as well. In the comic, classic Sonic is just a younger modern Sonic, but there have been mandates to control not giving that impression even though people can put the pieces together. 

In the games, that's not how it works. While classic is shown as smaller and cuter when seen with modern Sonic, he's not a younger version in the in-universe aging sense. Classic and Modern represent two different branches of the franchise, so he's younger in the sense he represents the beginning era of Sonic, and is more retro. In fact, I think I recall seeing some classic merchandise with character profiles, and the ages were the same as the modern counterparts. This is why the mandates that made classic Sonic and modern Sonic's link less obvious exist in the first place. 

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36 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Answering this bit by bit to be as thorough and clear as possible. 

Sonic 06 was faithful at the time, but the reaction against it was so bad that it certainly at minimum caused a rethink of the approach of the franchise. It's actually kinda funny that I've been thinking about this for a few days as the recent Did You Know on Mario and Sonic mentioned that games like Mario and Sonic Original and Sonic and the Secret Rings were intended to get away from the heavier style of story that Sonic 06 had. That's likely why things like romance were cut out of the games wholesale, with Amy's crush on Sonic being more of a gag than, say, what Sonic X did with it, and notably I think Rouge's crush on Knuckles was more or less nixed. 

Boom is a special case in that it's got its own brand identity, away from what modern and classic do. Many people think the redesigns were unnecessary, but I would suggest that the redesigns define more than just the characters themselves, but also all the rules and mandates that differ between it and the other branches. However, it not working out would still probably call for a strategy rethink consider it's occupied three years of the franchise now. 

To be fair about romance.. .it was never prominent in the series to begin with. Amy's was nothing but a joke, and rouge liking knuckles was never really a thing. Ian said himself he thinks its something that was kind of in sa2 that everyone just took too far. And the closest thing rouge had to any type of actual romance to anyone in the games is the " i would follow you anywhere" line she says to shadow. And that isn't really much. There is blaze and sonic, and that isn't too much either. If anything them removing romance was them going back to the norm tbh. The largest attempt they had at this was sonic 06 in regards to elise... and we saw what happened with that. 

While boom may be a different branch entirely I believe, its been hit with mandates from the get go. While its a different thing, even during the development phase the creators could no just go willy nilly, but they did have a bit more freedom. Though that was quickly taken away in some regards, I think one of the pieces of proof of this is , the fact that one of the writers on twitter in regards to the last episode of last season strait up said he was kind of afraid to write an episode about shadow, and at first said it was impossible. And Ian talking about what he wanted to do with the boom comic at the time but had no actual idea what was going with the character and just stopped. While yes they can get away with things, I believe there are rules, they might be reigning them in a bit more. 

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I'd argue that they don't exactly, because even with the reboot there are still quirks that differ, either through the comics just wanting to add flourish or the interpretations of Japanese and Western writers being different. But whether it's the list of nitpicks I have with how the Chaotix are portrayed, or a bigger more controversial statement like me thinking that Amy being supportive of Knuckles would be out of character for her game self, I don't think that is a big part of the overall picture. 

 Comic book amy is miles better than game amy, so if that's controversial it upsets me. 

Like yeah I didn't like what she said, but she was out of character. Most game amy is god awful, it was because I didn't like on an ideological level agree with amy. But like Sega should learn from portrayals like that

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You do, but it could be argued that they're too much of it. I mean, the FFs, even with giving more to Sonic, Tails and Team Rose, still form a large part of the book and are half the main cast of the main book. And interactions between game cast to game cast haven't exactly been huge (some characters being worse offenders than others, like Silver having interacted with only Sonic, or Blaze being only shown in her world and having Amy and Cream once, or the complete absence of the Rogues that I keep mentioning from time to time). It's a tricky balance, and while I'm sure Archie fans are sick of seeing this, it is something worth considering from the perspective of the licencor. 

Archie fans are sick of what exactly, i'm just confused on your wording is all. 

As for too much world building, I agree. 

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Believe it or not, they do actually have rules concerning the usage of the old characters game-wise. We've seen it in merchandising countless times as old concepts are proposed and are rejected due to the character not being in the brand image any more (notably Metal Knuckles during the Jazwares period). Iizuka has even said on occasions that the characters aren't part of the franchise any more, hence why he said that they'd need to reintroduce them as new if they were ever to bring them back. The Tails Doll in Lego Dimensions was a one-off exception, but that probably stemmed from a combination of that character in particular being memetic, Lego Dimensions not really being considered in canon with the brand, and it being a little token of appreciation for Traveler's Tales, who made Sonic R all those years before the Lego game branch was even an idea on the table. 

Meanwhile, the comic has them wandering around all fine and dandy, even with redesigns to better fit the modern image, despite the main franchise actively pushing them out (in the case of Bean and Bark, I think they basically got absorbed into AM2's franchising). Technically, that goes against the style guide. 

Hmm, that's actually a pretty good point, I Hadn't thought of that at all. 

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Could be a combo of those things, could be something else, could be that none of this is true in the end and they're actually okay with it still for now, it's all really speaking from a hypothetical position at the minute and exploring the ways they may have issue with it.

That's true. Though for me personally, I think it might be how the game characters actually are if anything? I think even with sonic there are differences between his in game and comic versions,  don't make sense. Particularly him even being with the Freedom fighters in the first place, I can totally see company not wanted to brand their character like that anymore, especially considering that the set team in their head is sonic knuckles tails and sometimes amy. Compounded on that the notion that people might be seeing these archie characters instead of characters they actually want to sell... I can see them going " we need you to make the comic more gamey"  and that being, remove or push into that background a lot of the world building in place of stories centered around more game centric adjacent stuff. 

Less underwater adventures for the choatix, sadly. 

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Before I finish, I'd clarify why modern and classic might be an issue as well. In the comic, classic Sonic is just a younger modern Sonic, but there have been mandates to control not giving that impression even though people can put the pieces together. 

In the games, that's not how it works. While classic is shown as smaller and cuter when seen with modern Sonic, he's not a younger version in the in-universe aging sense.

I thought that was exactly how it works, sonic strait up says in generations " you are going to have a great future" and in generations it seems very much implied that the classic to modern timeline is one continuous timeline. 

But maybe I missed something, but i'm pretty sure that's strait up how it works

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Classic and Modern represent two different branches of the franchises, so he's younger in the sense he represents the beginning era of Sonic, and is more retro. In fact, I think I recall seeing some classic merchandise with character profiles, and the ages were the same as the modern counterparts. This is why the mandates that made classic Sonic and modern Sonic's link less obvious exist in the first place. 

Maybe i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure that it was past sonic was the implication. 

But I'll know I'm wrong when I see " classic shadow" if I ever see that, I'll know its two timelines. 

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