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Archie Sonic Main Discussion


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5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

In a context of these characters aren't used often, and then that happens, it does actually make them less of who they are. You talk about shadow, but shadow being jokes is actively criticized a lot of the time, and was so criticized in the rise of lyric game, that the writers of the show admitted they were afraid to even write an episode about the character. And even they did there was at best one joke against him and it was by the lamest character in the show. 

No, it doesn't. And that's a very narrow minded view of how characterization and presentation works, because humor doesn't make a serious character less of who they are if they still have serious moments to them.

And that also deliberately ignores everything beyond humor that's been done for the character for the sake complaining. Shadow isn't any less of a stoic character just because his stoicism is poked at by other characters, and just because it's played for laughs in one scene doesn't mean it can't be played for drama in a nother scene. And it certainly doesn't prevent a character like Shadow from being the enormous powerhouse he's general portrayed as. Did we not see Shadow kill Black Death with a Chaos Blast? Did we not see Shadow acting a stubborn, yet good intentions as he got into a fight with Knuckles over the Master Emerald's safety? Did we not see Blaze emphasize her duty as a guardian and charging at foes like Captain Metal in Pirate Plunder, or Team Dark and Hooligan in Treasure Team Tango to reclaim her Sol Emerald for her world? Or are we just going to disregard moments like these because they were given a moment of humor in between all that and treat it as a case of them making a that characters less of who they are? Because that's a ridiculous exaggeration to make and cry foul over, and I think people should know better.

Also, Shadow in Rise of Lyric is a cherry-picked example that is completely irrelevant here because the Boom series has had strong critics from within the fandom over all sorts of things and not just the characters (in spite of the cartoon doing well). Archie is hardly anything like Boom in how it treats it's characters, much less one-sided in expressions given every character has a lot more variety to their personalities than just their default moods. These characters aren't a box of simple expression and treatment that anything slightly different from that is immediately blasphemy, which you'd know if you'd look at other opinions rather that speaking for the fandom as a whole based only on what those who agree with you claim.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

No, it doesn't. And that's a very narrow minded view of how characterization and presentation works, because humor doesn't make a serious character less of who they are if they still have serious moments to them.

It does if those funny moments are presented way more than the serious ones, it isn't a narrow minded view of character presentation. And Vice versa, the vice versa effect actually happened to sonic for a while, and is effecting the franchise to this day. What people think can negatively effect how they feel about a character, and bad experiences can and using this correctly meme its way into the popular copiousness and effect how people view the character

Deadpool is a character who changed ( for the better IMO) because they audience saw funnier things and began to perceive him more like that than his previous serious persona. 

That is an exact example of someone's portrayal actually changing who they are as a character, by virtue of the perception of the audience. This is actually pretty common practice in comics.

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And that also deliberately ignores everything beyond humor that's been done for the character for the sake complaining. Shadow isn't any less of a stoic character just because his stoicism is poked at by other characters, and just because it's played for laughs in one scene doesn't mean it can't be played for drama in a nother scene.

When is the last time, not in this comic, that they have used shadow in a dramatic scene of any narrative merit besides " imma fight you sonic" . 

I'll wait. I'll give you some time, 

So what ever you came up with, its been a while huh, to which my original point is, if the character is being shown less, and being joked about more... you can't actually use that example, because he actually isn't being shown in those " dramatic scenes" 

Just looking cool in a fight , doesn't fix that, cyclops will tell you that one for free. You need to actually have to communicate as a character, in a cool way, and that hasn't happened to anyone not sonic outside of this comic... for a very very very long time. So if you don't see that character for a very long time, and then some new person goes " Oh who is this character" and its that, that might effect how they think of say, knuckles, or blaze for example. 

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And it certainly doesn't prevent a character like Shadow from being the enormous powerhouse he's general portrayed as.

Did we not see Shadow kill Black Death with a Chaos Blast? Did we not see Shadow acting a stubborn, yet good intentions as he got into a fight with Knuckles over the Master Emerald's safety? Did we not see Blaze emphasize her duty as a guardian and charging at foes like Captain Metal in Pirate Plunder, or Team Dark and Hooligan in Treasure Team Tango to reclaim her Sol Emerald for her world? Or are we just going to disregard moments like these because they were given a moment of humor in between all that and treat it as a case of them making a that characters less of who they are? Because that's a ridiculous exaggeration to make and cry foul over, and I think people should know better.

We did see all that, and here's my problem . No one is reading these books, or at least the people absorbing other entertainment sonic stuff in comparison to those reading this book is peanuts. 

Those are cool moments, shadow burned a monster to death, one who last time required super shadow. It was a cool thing, if more people read this comic book, I would agree with you. But they don't and a lot of there perceptions of these characters, are nowadays halfasseed inclusions, inclusions in games that don't matter or memes. Isn't helping the joke perception. 

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Also, Shadow in Rise of Lyric is a cherry-picked example that is completely irrelevant here because the Boom series has had strong critics from within the fandom over all sorts of things and not just the characters (in spite of the cartoon doing well).

You can't say that I've cherry picked things because criticism exists, one the criticism of sonic boom is pretty valid. ROL was trash ass unfinished Dumpster garbage, and the cartoon is c- at best . You can't disregard criticism as cherry picking because it doesn't align with your point  

And you extra can't use it , this is one of the reasons why I don't think the jokes are having a negative effect ( you seemed to have ignored this section of my response entirely ), because the people who work on sonic boom changed his character, twice. In response to that, they actually saw people weren't fond of it and intentionally changed who he was. And at least tried with very little effort, to expand on that.  That's why I don't think sega is disregarding their characters. Well besides knuckles a little. But that's another thing. 

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Archie is hardly anything like Boom in how it treats it's characters, much less one-sided in expressions given every character has a lot more variety to their personalities than just their default moods.

Eh actually there are a bunch of characters who appear very one note in who they are in the comics, some of them from sega. My favorite example is rouge. 

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These characters aren't a box of simple expression and treatment that anything slightly different from that is immediately blasphemy,

I know that? My favorite part of the comic in the whole history is when shadow tried to convince metal sonic to be a good guy? Along with that whole arc which had shadow out of his element making funny faces dealing with angry kids ect ect, and largely out of who he is as a person? And would like more stories where shadow is out of his element? But thanks for assuming things of me because I don't agree with you. That's totally a way to get someone to respect your argument. 

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which you'd know if you'd look at other opinions rather that speaking for the fandom as a whole based only on what those who agree with you claim.

I look at other opinions quite often. I hang out on other forums you know. 

I made an argument in the sonic 2017 thread talking about how sonic's perception still isn't very good... which would require me looking at rather different and unfavorable opinions. But again , thanks for assuming you know things about me I guess. 

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

It does if those funny moments are presented way more than the serious ones, it isn't a narrow minded view of character presentation.

Which hasn't been the case with Archie.

 

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When is the last time, not in this comic, that they have used shadow in a dramatic scene of any narrative merit besides " imma fight you sonic" . 

I'll wait. I'll give you some time, 

Sonic Universe issue 90, which was a six months ago. Litteraly four issues before the current arc that's out now, which ain't that long ago.

Better question--when was the last time Shadow even said anything like "I'mma fight you Sonic." The last time that actually happened was years ago.

 

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We did see all that, and here's my problem . No one is reading these books, or at least the people absorbing other entertainment sonic stuff in comparison to those reading this book is peanuts. 

Those are cool moments, shadow burned a monster to death, one who last time required super shadow. It was a cool thing, if more people read this comic book, I would agree with you. But they don't and a lot of there perceptions of these characters, are nowadays halfasseed inclusions, inclusions in games that don't matter or memes. Isn't helping the joke perception. 

More people reading the comic or not is completely irrelevant to the point of how they're being handled, nor is it any excuse for anyone who is reading to be dishonest in how there's this heavy "joke perception" that is nowhere near as big a thing as people are making it ot to be here for certain characters.

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You can't say that I've cherry picked things because criticism exists, one the criticism of sonic boom is pretty valid. ROL was trash ass unfinished Dumpster garbage, and the cartoon is c- at best . You can't disregard criticism as cherry picking because it doesn't align with your point  

I didn't disregard it because it doesn't align with my point, I disregarded it because it's completely irrelevant regarding how characters have been portrayed here in the comics. What happens in Boom doesn't affect Archie, so it holds no water here.

 

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I know that? My favorite part of the comic in the whole history is when shadow tried to convince metal sonic to be a good guy? Along with that whole arc which had shadow out of his element making funny faces dealing with angry kids ect ect, and largely out of who he is as a person? And would like more stories where shadow is out of his element? But thanks for assuming things of me because I don't agree with you. That's totally a way to get someone to respect your argument. 

Well I've hardly cared for your respect to begin with given how you've been here in this topic as you haven't really given much of it in return, so that's no skin off my back. Not to mention you just came into this discussion criticizing how too much humor makes a character less than what they are when I was pointing out how that really isn't even the case since characters have had a lot of serious moments to them.

So not my fault you jumped into this discussion without understanding what was going on when you put yourself on the opposing side of what I've been saying.

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I look at other opinions quite often. I hang out on other forums you know. 

I made an argument in the sonic 2017 thread talking about how sonic's perception still isn't very good... which would require me looking at rather different and unfavorable opinions. But again , thanks for assuming you know things about me I guess. 

Your welcome?

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Which hasn't been the case with Archie.

Yeah, I said I don't think the comic does that. I said I don't think sega does that. 

I actually agree with you, but you are so ready for an argument, on multiple occasions you havent read my response at all and just got upset at the stuff you didn't agree with. Hopefully you read it this time. 

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Sonic Universe issue 90, which was a six months ago. Litteraly four issues before the current arc that's out now, which ain't that long ago.

Better question--when was the last time Shadow even said anything like "I'mma fight you Sonic." The last time that actually happened was years ago.

Either you ignored the " not the comic" part of my question, or you didn't see it. Either way, you got it wrong. 

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More people reading the comic or not is completely irrelevant to the point of how they're being handled, nor is it any excuse for anyone who is reading to be dishonest in how there's this heavy "joke perception" that is nowhere near as big a thing as people are making it ot to be here for certain characters.

Its not, because I was talking about how the characters were being use in sonic in general. And how while I enjoy the comic, and can understand non use and joke use can give the perception of the character being a joke. And how this comic isn't reaching enough people to combat that narrative. 

I spoke about something similar to this in another thread, and how i'm tired of blaming people, and wish to blame sega for that narrative for existing.  

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I didn't disregard it because it doesn't align with my point, I disregarded it because it's completely irrelevant regarding how characters have been portrayed here in the comics. What happens in Boom doesn't affect Archie, so it holds no water here.

I was talking about sonic as a whole one. But two, it kind of does effect the other actually, in a very round about way, and if the comic does end up canceled because it isn't aligning with sega's views that will be much more appearant  

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Well I've hardly cared for your respect to begin with given how you've been here in this topic as you haven't really given much of it in return, 

Disagreeing with you, isn't respecting your opinion?

Wat

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so that's no skin off my back. Not to mention you just came into this discussion criticizing how too much humor makes a character less than what they are when I was pointing out how that really isn't even the case since characters have had a lot of serious moments to them.

I didn't say that it did, that if used poorly it has the potential to. And for some people it already has, then gave an example of such. I actually again agree with this not being the case with sonic, but you again, ignored that. 

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So not my fault you jumped into this discussion without understanding what was going on when you put yourself on the opposing side of what I've been saying.

I didn't jump into anything , i responded, and then you didn't read my responses and think i'm angry and disagreeing with you, perceive these disagreements as disrespect  and aren't actually reading. 

Pls read

 

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I don't know what's happening, and I'm rather clueless about what's going on. I hope they don't end, because I was just starting to really like the comics and get into it just when this happens. I had high hopes they won't cancel it, but all the things I'm hearing don't sound too good.

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5 minutes ago, Chavysonicfan said:

I don't know what's happening, and I'm rather clueless about what's going on. I hope they don't end, because I was just starting to really like the comics and get into it just when this happens. I had high hopes they won't cancel it, but all the things I'm hearing don't sound too good.

We really need a catch-up post for new people who are just catching on to this.

What you're seeing here is mainly just speculation discussion we haven't heard really anything except Tracey Yardley got in contact with his Editor in Chief and he basically said SEGA and Archie are still talking and that was just a few days ago (somebody will re-link the tweet).

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12 hours ago, goku262002 said:

(somebody will re-link the tweet)

Like this?

On 3/22/2017 at 2:00 PM, SBR2 said:

Mark Waid is a much better writer than this. Read Superman Birthright. It's a great story.

I'll make note of that, @SBR2. Thanks for the recommendation.

On 3/22/2017 at 2:41 PM, RictalRose0 said:

Knuckle's entire Penderization Enchilada Adventure

lol

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On 3/22/2017 at 2:41 PM, RictalRose0 said:

 

Though still to me the notion that Sega would actually care that much about what happens in the comic doesn't seem that realistic to me. They pretty much let them do whatever they wanted outside of some minor mandates (Don't change the designs of the game characters too much, don't pair up game characters with other game characters). It was only after the lawsuit that Sega actually took notice to what was happening in the comics. Such as the greatly altered canon and background of their characters (Sonic having a name, parents, wife and kids and all kinds of stuff, Amy's age and also having a family, Tail's family, Knuckle's entire Penderization Enchilada Adventure, etc).

I like how you glossing over knuckles's folks, like every time there was a shitty story in the book, they weren't involved somehow. You also glossing over the future arc, whoo... that's bad. But I don't think you are right on this, yes sega will let them do what they think is correct as long as it falls in within the restrictions, and possible other restrictions. But if some of the discussion behind the scenes is what some think it is about, that would show an active desire from sega to curate what the book is . 

I mean if I were sega, I would have canned the book after the future arc which threw every single character who participated under a shit buss that almost made me stop liking sonic and I unfortunately cant forget. But hey man, better late than never to curate. 

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When in comes to Knuckles I sum all of the stuff with him such as the extended Knuckle's family tree and all the weird stuff under "Pender's Bizzare Adventure: Enchilada Crusaders". But if I had to list all the things the comic has done that Sega would have screamed about if they had actually realized what was happening, i'd be here too long lol. Let's just say, if Sega ever got a whiff of that happening again despite the mandates they would most def can it. But Flynn has learned his lesson. He follows orders pretty closely and is not a maverick like the others. Which is good.

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7 minutes ago, RictalRose0 said:

When in comes to Knuckles I sum all of the stuff with him such as the extended Knuckle's family tree and all the weird stuff under "Pender's Bizzare Adventure: Enchilada Crusaders". But if I had to list all the things the comic has done that Sega would have screamed about if they had actually realized what was happening, i'd be here too long lol. Let's just say, if Sega ever got a whiff of that happening again despite the mandates they would most def can it. But Flynn has learned his lesson. He follows orders pretty closely and is not a maverick like the others. Which is good.

This discussion again? (Well, at least it's better than grabbing every rumor about comic dying/not dying)

As much as we don't like Penders, I don't blame him for populating Angel Island. Knuckles got his very own comic, it had to be about SOMETHING. Not the mention it was before Adventure 1, so Sonic world was pretty bare at this moment.

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In my opinion, I really didn't like the pre reboot. All the Sega characters seemed off, especially Sonic. I kinda greatly disliked him in a few of the issues. The stories with Knuckles I never really paid attention to because to me they're so forgettable. I hated the love triangles too. I was just so happy to see the reboot is better to me. 

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He had the Chaotix you know? They could have just had adventures around the world, Treasure Hunting and stuff. There's no way all that stuff about Echidnas was a neccesity for the comic. And what even made Penders think Knuckles needed a girlfriend so bad? Besides no one told them to keep it after Adventure. They literally could have just written it off or dismissed it but instead they doubled down on it because the stuff introduced in Adventure about Knuckle's tribe and ancestors contradicted what Penders wrote and that pissed him off. 

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37 minutes ago, Chavysonicfan said:

In my opinion, I really didn't like the pre reboot. All the Sega characters seemed off, especially Sonic. I kinda greatly disliked him in a few of the issues. The stories with Knuckles I never really paid attention to because to me they're so forgettable. I hated the love triangles too. I was just so happy to see the reboot is better to me. 

I'm the exact opposite. I hate the reboot, though I will continue to read it. I much prefer the pre SGW universe. I found everything more interesting with better stories and characters. One of my favorite things done in the comics was the extended Knuckles Universe with the other Echidnas. Granted, Julie-Su is my favorite character in the comic. Which makes me like and dislike Penders at the same time. Though, I don't blame him for what happened either.

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I like how you glossing over knuckles's folks, like every time there was a shitty story in the book, they weren't involved somehow. You also glossing over the future arc, whoo... that's bad.

I mean if I were sega, I would have canned the book after the future arc which threw every single character who participated under a shit buss that almost made me stop liking sonic and I unfortunately cant forget. But hey man, better late than never to curate. 

What exactly is this referencing again?

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11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

What exactly is this referencing again?

The bad thing?

The future arc, sonic a husband,  ect ect ect. I'm going to leave it there, because its on of those comic book crap piles like one more day or judas contract that make me upset thinking about the narrative because then I go into " how on gods green earth did you think that was cool " .But that's what i'm referencing

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Hai.

Not sure if it was already posted, despite looking back the last page or two, but Archie's June 2017 solicitations have come out. Sonic is not included in them.

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1 hour ago, Evercross said:

I'm the exact opposite. I hate the reboot, though I will continue to read it. I much prefer the pre SGW universe. I found everything more interesting with better stories and characters. One of my favorite things done in the comics was the extended Knuckles Universe with the other Echidnas. Granted, Julie-Su is my favorite character in the comic. Which makes me like and dislike Penders at the same time. Though, I don't blame him for what happened either.

I respect all opinions but dude, really? I thought at least you would say "I liked Flynn's stuff pre-reboot" as generally people see the 170 to 220 stuff as the best stuff the old comic did. While the Dark Ages are usually a mixed bag. But to each their own I guess.

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I'm honestly not trolling here but why does it seem everyone is so anti penders stories, I didn't really follow the comic back then so I haven't read that much of his work. I know about the lawsuits and the Lara-su chronicles thing but it seems every time I see anything about the pre Ian Flynn stories everyone just says "it was Penders era so it sucked." Without ever really explaining why his stories were bad.

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1 hour ago, SSF1991 said:

Hai.

Not sure if it was already posted, despite looking back the last page or two, but Archie's June 2017 solicitations have come out. Sonic is not included in them.

That was posted a few days ago, as was both Sonic the Hedgehog TP #5 (Champions) and Sonic Mega Drive: Overdrive being listed as cancelled, Sonic #293 currently sitting at "to be resolicited" and the fact that Sega and Archie are "talking" according to what Yardley found out from Lovallo. 

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2 minutes ago, Kidakairis said:

I'm honestly not trolling here but why does it seem everyone is so anti penders stories, I didn't really follow the comic back then so I haven't read that much of his work. I know about the lawsuits and the Lara-su chronicles thing but it seems every time I see anything about the pre Ian Flynn stories everyone just says "it was Penders era so it sucked." Without ever really explaining why his stories were bad.

Because it's a dead horse. There's only so much that could be talked about, there's entire blogs just dedicated to dissected Penders work. And the thing is, is that the Pre-Ian stuff was all very obviously bad. Any layman can look at what's happening, and see that it doesn't work.

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5 minutes ago, Kidakairis said:

I'm honestly not trolling here but why does it seem everyone is so anti penders stories, I didn't really follow the comic back then so I haven't read that much of his work. I know about the lawsuits and the Lara-su chronicles thing but it seems every time I see anything about the pre Ian Flynn stories everyone just says "it was Penders era so it sucked." Without ever really explaining why his stories were bad.

Honestly, I think some of it is just people's dislike for what Mr. Penders did in regards to the lawsuit and the Lara-Su chronicles spilling over into their opinion of him as a person as well as his work. Others probably dislike Penders' stories because they differ so much from the modern Sonic post-Adventure universe. This is a reasonable complaint as far as preferences go, but Mr. Penders can hardly be blamed for his lack of clairvoyance (or can he?). Regarding his writing style, I can't give you much more than my general feeling that his stuff could tend toward the melodramatic, but then again, I didn't read regularly until well into the Flynn years very recently, so I'll leave further comment to others.

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26 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Hold up there. I wouldn't go as far to say that everything pre-Flynn was bad. There are still several genuinly good stories in there somewhere.

Even Ken managed to put out the occasional good story in the immediate pre-Flynn era.  As much of an utter mess Mobius 25 Years Later was, the "Father's Day" flashback/flashforward story near the end of it was actually pretty decent.  If nothing else, it was the only time Ken ever had Locke admit he was a really, really shitty father.

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50 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

That was posted a few days ago, as was both Sonic the Hedgehog TP #5 (Champions) and Sonic Mega Drive: Overdrive being listed as cancelled, Sonic #293 currently sitting at "to be resolicited" and the fact that Sega and Archie are "talking" according to what Yardley found out from Lovallo. 

Well I figured the other stuff was already posted. I just wasn't aware about the solicitation news. lol

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