Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't even go as that far. Across all media Shadow is always presented as being faster (being on par with Sonic) and stronger than any of his opposition. He's never had to demonstrate a tactical flare or anything resembling something akin to strategy because his brute force and overwhelming advantages allowed him to essentially tank his way though a fight.

So enter the comics. When you throw someone at him that can't be overpowered in that fashion (Enerjak) or who was specifically designed to counter his strengths (Eclipse), Shadow doesn't have a good response for that. He would have to take a step back, assess the situation and change his approach if he wanted to come back stronger and win. That is not the writer picking on Shadow - he did the same thing to Sonic many times over. The Egg Beater, several incarnations of Metal Sonic, they were introduced to counter Sonic and they did their job. It wasn't until Sonic took a step back from himself (and developed a bit in the process) that he was able to overcome these threats. Shadow is no different.

Hmm...fair point.

 

Plus, I suppose the Treasure Team Tango example may be partially more indicative of people's opinions of Amy, who while admittedly generally portrayed as being a level or two below most of the other characters, is pretty flexible and powerful herself.

[Sega DogTagz]

We probably have the games to thank for that. Where she is a... capable character in the games, in the comics she has always been labeled as a Berserker in a class of her ownf. She's had several Sonic level feats and then some. Shoot, we are talking about a gal who made the IRON KING FLINCH. The same Iron King who could stampede though Knothole's defenses, Sonic, Monkey Khan and anything else you could throw at him. But Amy? Nope, she fought him to a standstill.

Her tagging Shadow isn't exactly something to cry over, particularly so when in the immediate aftermath he completely dismantles her after she gets his full attention.

[Dash Speed]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't even go as that far. Across all media Shadow is always presented as being faster (being on par with Sonic) and stronger than any of his opposition. He's never had to demonstrate a tactical flare or anything resembling something akin to strategy because his brute force and overwhelming advantages allowed him to essentially tank his way though a fight.

So enter the comics. When you throw someone at him that can't be overpowered in that fashion (Enerjak) or who was specifically designed to counter his strengths (Eclipse), Shadow doesn't have a good response for that. He would have to take a step back, assess the situation and change his approach if he wanted to come back stronger and win. That is not the writer picking on Shadow - he did the same thing to Sonic many times over. The Egg Beater, several incarnations of Metal Sonic, they were introduced to counter Sonic and they did their job. It wasn't until Sonic took a step back from himself (and developed a bit in the process) that he was able to overcome these threats. Shadow is no different.

I think Shth demonstrated how much of a beast he is in various combat situations outside of default power skills and has great multi tasking elements in battle. So yes he has shown tatical advantages other characters lack apart from Sonic, Tails Eggman and maybe Rouge. Shadow is not written as a mindless brute even when he's doing his overpowering skills in games, he's refined in battle composure, graceful, concentrated and focused and has shown he can produce new attacks with his chaos powers for different in fighting tatical uses, he's supposed to be a master of chaos control and tapping into chaos magic better, the comic has him a novice compared to Knuckles and the Echnidas which is pretty much my issue since they refused to keep Shadow above the comic big boys and not true to his canon depiction.

 

The difference between him and Sonic is that Sonic gets bigger buffs and more cases to show case his growth in battle with a better payoff after he loses, Shadow dips in worf effect even when he needs to fight someone he's lost to and somehow ends up weaker and more reliant on others. The Megaman crossover is proof of that, Ian buffed everyone over Shadow even freaking Tails and Rouge. I hated how Sega makes Omega a counter to Shadow, thats how you know a writer is deliberately holding Shadow back by making almost anyone counter his chaos powers and god like speed in order to write characters from being useless because they're that weak.

 

My Main point in all of this if they were going to progress and buff characters so they can stand a chance against characters like Shadow, Sonic, Knuckles or Blaze, they should be just as fair when buffing these characters starting at the level they were in the games, no matter how weak they'd look in comparison(Amy, Rouge, Vector etc). Shadow should be a low tier enerjak or scourge level if his comics was fair to his powers, not just implied equal to Sonic, the games have them equals in speed and base physicals but Shadow is the better fighter and more adept chaos master, thats why Sonic has to fight him with external assistance rather than his own capabilities. In games Shadow has so many chaos powers, he is basically pre level Super form, Shadow in the comics basically knows chaos spear and blast which taxes his stamina and knocks him out barely proving his claim as just a bit better than Sonic, and unlike in the games, he fights with less and needs calls from gun than his own decisive calls, probably because the writer doesn't want Shadow to make Rouge and Omega useless which I don't see why they would need Shadow if thats the case since they can handle themselves without him. But Shadow is the guy who is vital  for them to take down god like beings like Solaris and Doom, which he handles just finds without orders.

 

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

We probably have the games to thank for that. Where she is a... capable character in the games, in the comics she has always been labeled as a Berserker in a class of her ownf. She's had several Sonic level feats and then some. Shoot, we are talking about a gal who made the IRON KING FLINCH. The same Iron King who could stampede though Knothole's defenses, Sonic, Monkey Khan and anything else you could throw at him. But Amy? Nope, she fought him to a standstill.

Her tagging Shadow isn't exactly something to cry over, particularly so when in the immediate aftermath he completely dismantles her after she gets his full attention.

Very true.

Also, Sonic X says hello.

 

 

 

 

[RedFox99]

@DabigRG Plus, a lot of the characters were intimidated by Amy at times like during the tournament and when Eggman insulted her.

[Dash Speed]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

We probably have the games to thank for that. Where she is a... capable character in the games, in the comics she has always been labeled as a Berserker in a class of her ownf. She's had several Sonic level feats and then some. Shoot, we are talking about a gal who made the IRON KING FLINCH. The same Iron King who could stampede though Knothole's defenses, Sonic, Monkey Khan and anything else you could throw at him. But Amy? Nope, she fought him to a standstill.

Her tagging Shadow isn't exactly something to cry over, particularly so when in the immediate aftermath he completely dismantles her after she gets his full attention.

Amy's a joke dude, Amy doing good in against high caliber fighters is PIS and not going by the game source. The Iron King is a joke to for even being a hypetool for Amy. 

Tagging Shadow is CIS/PIS on Shadow's part, Shadow's always on edge and sharp in split second reactions. Shadow would never let her hit him if he didn't want to. Amy hitting him is like Spider-Man beating up firelord, out of context and borderline bad writing. The fact she can fight skilled people on par with someone who rivals the fastest creature in the series is ludicrous. 

[Sega DogTagz]

20 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

I think Shth demonstrated how much of a beast he is in various combat situations outside of default power skills and has great multi tasking elements in battle. So yes he has shown tatical advantages other characters lack

Well then please do elaborate.

Because where I am sitting, all of his problems in that game were conquered with speed, power or a mix of both. He was never pressured in the narrative to change his tactical approach. Every threat to him in that game was overcome by his usual hit em fast and hit em harder mentality. The solution to everything was punch it in the face, or punch it in the face with a machine gun. Since there are few people better than Shadow to do just that, he never had to display any tactical cunning.

I don't doubt that Shadow can fight his way out of many situations. My point is that there within lies the problem. He's constantly the biggest, baddest gun in the firefight - so in the rare occasion that he isn't he is left with no leg left to fall back on.

The games especially are extremely prone to this.

 

20 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

 Shadow should be a low tier enerjak or scourge, not just implied equal to Sonic,

 

Do you even read the comics dude? Enerjak is a God level character. Shadow's name should not be spoken in the same breath as him. Comparing the two is like saying Michal Jordan would have a shot in a basketball game agaisnt Jesus. Shadow is no low-tier Enerjak. They are not even in the same ballpark. He'd be completely busted if he was.

 

20 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

the games have them equals in speed and base physicals but Shadow is the better fighter and more adept chaos master, thats why Sonic has to fight him with external assistance rather than his own capabilities.

Sonic's beaten Shadow in the games more times than the other way around. So not sure where that comes from.

 

11 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Amy's a joke dude, Amy doing good in against high caliber fighters is PIS and not going by the game source. The Iron King is a joke to for even being a hypetool for Amy. 

and you clearly must not read the comics. Even heavy hitters like Knuckles have balked in Amy's presence from time to time in the comics. When she is determined, she is neigh unstoppable. Amy's done things and beat back threats even Sonic couldn't take down.

There are very few non-god characters in the comics that have solo'd a warzone and single handed-ly defeated an army. Amy has.

 

 

[RedFox99]

@Sega DogTagz Didn't Amy also get a power up for her hammer during the Shattered arc?

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, RedFox99 said:

@Sega DogTagz Didn't Amy also get a power up for her hammer during the Shattered arc?

 

Wouldn't call it a power-up. It got crystallized by Nagus's magic and became pointy, to which Amy proceeded to use to her advantage.

Doesn't really matter anyway. The Piko-Piko Hammer is already essentially a WMD in the comics. There isn't much that rivals it outside of its extra-dimensional cousin wielded by Rosey the Rascal.

[RedFox99]

6 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Wouldn't call it a power-up. It got crystallized by Nagus's magic and became pointy, to which Amy proceeded to use to her advantage.

Doesn't really matter anyway. The Piko-Piko Hammer is already essentially a WMD in the comics. There isn't much that rivals it outside of its extra-dimensional cousin wielded by Rosey the Rascal.

 

This makes me wonder how strong Amy is without her hammer because so far Boom is the only part of the franchise (that I can recall) that acknowledges this.

[Sega DogTagz]

4 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

This makes me wonder how strong Amy is without her hammer.

 

She was still willing to take on Shadow minus her hammer... so at the very least she's confident.

 

Seriously though, she is still is usually depicted as nimble and exceptionally athletic outside of the Hammer. She might not be a dynamo, but homing attacks are usually enough to do the job 90% of the time and she can still do that.

 

[RedFox99]

7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

She was still willing to take on Shadow minus her hammer... so at the very least she's confident.

 

Seriously though, she is still is usually depicted as nimble and exceptionally athletic outside of the Hammer. She might not be a dynamo, but homing attacks are usually enough to do the job 90% of the time and she can still do that.

 

You know what could be interesting: a story where Amy is stranded in a jungle without her hammer and she has to learn to survive without it. It could also be a nice way to introduce Sticks.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Either that, or bring in her boxing skills from Sonic Battle. True, she had the hammer there too, but most of her moveset was boxing. 

[RedFox99]

3 minutes ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

Either that, or bring in her boxing skills from Sonic Battle. True, she had the hammer there too, but most of her moveset was boxing. 

I never played that game, to be honest, but that sounds interesting. Maybe they can have Amy do sparring matches with Knuckles from time to time.

[DabigRG]

Yeah, Amy was always kinda the Gimmick character among the Classic Heroes, particularly since Sonic Adventure ended on the note of her becoming more independent. And while the exact results have been mixed, at least where Sonic is concerned, she's always been shown making use of other means of combat and speed before transitioning it more of a solid Speed Type.

[RedFox99]

39 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, Amy was always kinda the Gimmick character among the Classic Heroes, particularly since Sonic Adventure ended on the note of her becoming more independent. And while the exact results have been mixed, at least where Sonic is concerned, she's always been shown making use of other means of combat and speed before transitioning it more of a solid Speed Type.

She seems to almost be a well-balanced fighter. 

Anyways, what kind of ideas do you guys have for possible stories in the new comics?

[HywelAtTheMoon]

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

I never played that game, to be honest, but that sounds interesting. Maybe they can have Amy do sparring matches with Knuckles from time to time.

I'd love to see a rematch of the fight they had in the Archie Champions arc. It's more of a case of which of these two hotheads loses their cool first. 

[RedFox99]

7 minutes ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

I'd love to see a rematch of the fight they had in the Archie Champions arc. It's more of a case of which of these two hotheads loses their cool first. 

That could've made for an interesting one-shot.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Maybe follow it up with the Sonic vs. Knuckles rematch. They never got to finish the fight before Metal showed up. 

Bonus: Tails vs. Honey, Grudge Match. 

[RedFox99]

Just now, HywelAtTheMoon said:

Maybe follow it up with the Sonic vs. Knuckles rematch. They never got to finish the fight before Metal showed up. 

Bonus: Tails vs. Honey, Grudge Match. 

Yeah, I felt the ending to the arc was a bit rushed, especially because the cover of its last issue made it seem like the others would fight the Hooligans.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

If IDW does a similar arc in the future, I hope they don't just stick to the game characters. Seeing how the OCs' abilities would stack up against the established heroes and villains could prove interesting. 

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Yeah, I felt the ending to the arc was a bit rushed, especially because the cover of its last issue made it seem like the others would fight the Hooligans.

To be fair, action series, particularly ones with near mascot level characters, tend to do that sort of thing all the time.

1 minute ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

If IDW does a similar arc in the future, I hope they don't just stick to the game characters. Seeing how the OCs' abilities would stack up against the established heroes and villains could prove interesting. 

Translation: More Pane.

But definitely agreed.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Not to mention it would give a good reason for them to be in the comic in the first place. Of course, Sonic would win, but giving him a scare would shake things up a bit. 

[antyep]

6 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

This makes me wonder how strong Amy is without her hammer because so far Boom is the only part of the franchise (that I can recall) that acknowledges this.

I always thought that hammer gets stronger depending on Amy's emotions, especially her anger, as it seems to be in Sonic X

Either that or its just my headcanon XP

[Dash Speed]

6 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Well then please do elaborate.

Because where I am sitting, all of his problems in that game were conquered with speed, power or a mix of both. He was never pressured in the narrative to change his tactical approach. Every threat to him in that game was overcome by his usual hit em fast and hit em harder mentality. The solution to everything was punch it in the face, or punch it in the face with a machine gun. Since there are few people better than Shadow to do just that, he never had to display any tactical cunning.

Shadow showing skills other than his original moveset shows his talent in fighting and general combat versatility. The whole game was a test of his title "Ultimate Lifeform" to me, Shadow faces god like threats like Sonic but can mix up his combat style like Dante and Vergil from DMC to whoop butt, he's proven he can tackle different problems with extensive ease in battle and had almost a terminator adapativeness to his gameplay, which shows he's not a rushdown brute like Sonic or a muscle junkie like Knuckles, he's a jack of all trades that knows more than Sonic does in using weapons, vechicle usuage and fighting skills outside of using his powers, the idea of him using these various abilities with expert skill shows his tatical side.

6 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

I don't doubt that Shadow can fight his way out of many situations. My point is that there within lies the problem. He's constantly the biggest, baddest gun in the firefight - so in the rare occasion that he isn't he is left with no leg left to fall back on.

The games especially are extremely prone to this.

He's still not just a mindless nuke of one shotting, Sonic X, his game and Sonic 06 showed him being able to fight adept to any form of combat and tactical in fighting. 

 

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Do you even read the comics dude? Enerjak is a God level character. Shadow's name should not be spoken in the same breath as him. Comparing the two is like saying Michal Jordan would have a shot in a basketball game agaisnt Jesus. Shadow is no low-tier Enerjak. They are not even in the same ballpark. He'd be completely busted if he was.

Shadow is god level in the games with 7 chaos emeralds, he's a near demigod with one. Shadow's feats and abilities in gameplay don't match the writing Ian has developed Shadow have making him unfaithful to the canon material. Nerfing Shadow is one thing, having some random character comic execlusive one shot a popular character to hype others is another. And I said, Shadow should be low tier enerjak, since Knuckles is written to be, Shadow based on canon feats show match that or be stronger in the comics, it's fair.

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Sonic's beaten Shadow in the games more times than the other way around. So not sure where that comes from.

Sonic's beaten Shadow with external power ups/help and uses outside abilities to keep up with him, he uses Chaos Control which isn't his to beat him, his friends helped beat him while Sonic chased him down finished him in Chronicles, he used some sort of power source that boosted himself to overwhelm Shadow. Only Sonic Battle he's shown being better, but I blame that on main character privileges.

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and you clearly must not read the comics. Even heavy hitters like Knuckles have balked in Amy's presence from time to time in the comics. When she is determined, she is neigh unstoppable. Amy's done things and beat back threats even Sonic couldn't take down.

There are very few non-god characters in the comics that have solo'd a warzone and single handed-ly defeated an army. Amy has.

Doesn't mean it's makes sense since Amy before Yardley and Ian she never had that much impact on natural fighting or been built up to hang with the boys like in the games, the games make her a novice to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles while she's just a bystander not fit for fighting on their level. It's PIS/CIS that the comics give Amy ooc traits and skills that make her better than Tails in battle. Amy is so weak, Cream could take her down with pure strength since she carries big the cat. In my opinion Amy makes the comics worse to read because her power level and skill set isn't true to the source material and makes other characters like Knuckles, Shadow and Sonic look bad.