Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[RedFox99]

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I get that, but the problem was that Archie never really grew out of that. It only really had a few more diverse female characters in it's whole run, the rest were still mostly cookie cutter no-nonsense foils to the males who shown all those chauvinistic boys who was boss. It was 90s girl power up until the 2010s.

Even at that I think Sally and Bunnie had plenty openings for quirks in the Satam cartoon and early comics, even if they weren't really grasped much. Sally could be no-nonsense and meticulous to the point of being a grouchy control freak while Bunnie being a cowgirl could easily be given a plucky abrasive side. They were archetypes that have been fleshed out well in other cartoons and franchises to be entertaining on their own (eg. Twilight Sparkle and Applejack).

It's odd how even the comic when it was TRYING to make them flawed (to the point of shoving it in our faces for Sally in the end) like they couldn't really grasp any sort of consistent vice for them.

The thing with Sally was that Ian tried making flaws for her (like her bad cooking skills) that really weren't flaws per say rather than explore how she would act like she what was best for others. Not to talk trash about him, but it felt like he only scratched the surface of issues people had with her.

[E-122-Psi]

I think it was a double edged sword in trying to 'fix' her, rather than trying to play on the woes fans had with her and trying to use that flesh out her character, they just tried to abolish it and pretend it wasn't there in hopes that would please fans, but they couldn't. It was too ingrained into her character. Ian still wrote Sally as a close minded hypocrite at times, I get the feeling he was only making a random reach to please fans and if it weren't for them complaining about Sally he would have been perfectly fine writing her the same way Hurst and Penders originally did. He didn't really understand what the problem was.

The problem wasn't that Sally had moments of being temperamental or self righteous, just they never came back to haunt her. They were more little tics to her character the writers thought came being the sane one, which was sometimes true, but after a while of overbearing it or sometimes making her a designated hero, sometimes made her unbearable. I think fans would have far more appreciated traits like THAT getting thrown back at her over just generic mistakes like bad cooking. The fact they weren't really conveyed as flaws also meant she lacked real foibles, hence her still coming off as bland regardless.

Sally had perfect potential to be flawed since she was an opposite to Sonic, she could have been the opposite to a fault. Sure dashing into things solo isn't a great idea, but trying to hold everyone off from taking too many big risks or making them follow very meticulous plans to the soundest detail can be just as poor planning. Also while she wasn't a show off like Sonic, she still had an ego in a different way, the 'I know what's best for you more than you do' sort of way. But of course the writers couldn't differentiate nuances and were convinced Sally was perfectly humble and careful.

I haven't seen a lot of Boom since Ian began to write for it by the way, how did he write Amy? She was a lot like Sally in Boom but with those elements fully realised (eg. Closed Door Policy).

[RedFox99]

15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I haven't seen a lot of Boom since Ian began to write for it by the way, how did he write Amy? She was a lot like Sally in Boom but with those elements fully realised (eg. Closed Door Policy).

She still had moments of having a big ego, but it would often get tossed back at her.

Plus, Sally calling out nicole for calling her out in Spark of Life probably didn't help matters

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

She still had moments of having a big ego, but it would often get tossed back at her.

Was it still an ego in the same way though? As said there's a difference between being shoe boating and narcissism egotistical, and being holier than thou and thinking you know best egotistical.

That's nuances in quirks I don't think the Archie writers got. Remember most of the time they wanted one of the more mild mannered characters to be flawed they just had them act reckless or abrasive in spite of that being the total opposite of their character otherwise. Like being reckless and hot headed is the only way you can screw up and introverted characters can only ever be straight men.

[RedFox99]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Was it still an ego in the same way though? As said there's a difference between being shoe boating and narcissism egotistical, and being holier than thou and thinking you know best egotistical.

That's nuances in quirks I don't think the Archie writers got. Remember they frequently made Sally reckless as well in spite of that being the total opposite of her character otherwise. Like being reckless is the only way you can screw up.

Sometimes. Granted I don't think it got as bad as in Just a Guy or Closed Door Policy.

BTW, have you read the sea3on webcomic?

[E-122-Psi]

2 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Sometimes. Granted I don't think it got as bad as in Just a Guy or Closed Door Policy.

BTW, have you read the sea3on webcomic?

Not a lot, but I did read that Christmas Carol gag story. They could characteristically make Sally into a Scrooge who was a closed minded miser in spite of meaning well.

[RedFox99]

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

Not a lot, but I did read that Christmas Carol gag story. They could characteristically make Sally into a Scrooge who was a closed minded miser in spite of meaning well.

Yeah, they did an impressive job with writing her.

[E-122-Psi]

Just now, RedFox99 said:

Yeah, they did an impressive job with writing her.

It's odd how gag stories seem to get a better hang of Sally's archetype than serious ones that actually attempt dynamic character development.

[RedFox99]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's odd how gag stories seem to get a better hang of Sally's archetype than serious ones that actually attempt dynamic character development.

It is very telling. Not to be too hard on Ian or Hurst, but they did let their fondness of Sally get in the way of writing her.

[E-122-Psi]

10 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It is very telling. Not to be too hard on Ian or Hurst, but they did let their fondness of Sally get in the way of writing her.

Maybe it wasn't so much they were overfond of Sally as much as they just had a one track view of the role she was supposed to have, i.e. the straight man instead of a character who sometimes needed an ego check herself.

Also generally characters of her archetype that do have a strong flawed side usually have some moments of acting extremely vindictive or standoffish. I mean, they always feel bad afterwards, that's the point, they only wanted to look out for others but then hurt them worse by going overboard with it (this is probably why that Xmas Carol story worked so well). But such characters, yeah, they do tend to end up VERY divisive because of their attitude, and I think those writers were insistent Sally was just a nice girl with a frustrated streak from dealing with idiots. Plus most control freaks end up the butt monkey commonly, and I think they preferred that sort of humour going to the male cast.

'Well meaning control freaks' in fiction are common, but you do see the fan base split down the middle whether they are the most relatable characters of the cast or just pushy mean jerks who ruin all the fun. Ask the Winnie the Pooh fan base about Rabbit, or the MLP fan base about Twilight Sparkle.

[RedFox99]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Maybe it wasn't so much they were overfond of Sally as much as they just had a one track view of the role she was supposed to have, i.e. the straight man instead of a character who sometimes needed an ego check herself.

Also generally characters of her archetype that do have a strong flawed side usually have some moments of acting extremely vindictive or standoffish. I mean, they always feel bad afterwards, that's the point, they only wanted to look out for others but then hurt them worse by going overboard with it. But such characters, yeah, they do tend to end up VERY divisive because of their attitude, and I think those writers were insistent Sally was just a nice girl with a frustrated streak from dealing with idiots.

'Well meaning control freaks' in fiction are common, but you do see the fan base split down the middle whether they are the most relatable characters of the cast or just pushy mean jerks. Ask the Winnie the Pooh fan base about Rabbit, or the MLP fan base about Twilight Sparkle.

But they seem to pale in comparison to what the split Sally often brought to the sonic fanbase either way.

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

But they seem to pale in comparison to what the split Sally often brought to the sonic fanbase either way.

Probably because Sally by bad writing was still inherently priggish and standoffish at times, just unlike those cases, it didn't come back to haunt her, and so she rarely had the big moments of humility or remorse. Most of the time she was outright treated in the right. Plus again, not actually treated like a flaw so Sally tended to end up accidentally boring instead of deliberately and humorously boring.

[RedFox99]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Plus again, not actually treated like a flaw so Sally tended to end up accidentally boring instead of deliberately and humorously boring.

And like I mentioned, after when people told her she was wrong, or when they had a point, the writers made the person wrong like when Mina and the others said that having nicole be in charge of the city would not be a good idea.

[E-122-Psi]

To simplify, no one likes a designated hero.

[RedFox99]

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

To simplify, no one likes a designated hero.

Eyup. Hopefully if Ian does use Sally in the comics he has an epiphany.

[E-122-Psi]

Just now, RedFox99 said:

Eyup. Hopefully if Ian does use Sally in the comics he has an epiphany.

I stand by the sad belief that Sally was one of those characters Ian just wasn't going to master. Nearly every writer has an easier or harder understanding of certain archetypes and concepts, just in luckier circumstances they have a team of varied writers who all fill in for each other's shortcoming.

[RedFox99]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I stand by the sad belief that Sally was one of those characters Ian just wasn't going to master. Nearly every writer has an easier or harder understanding of certain archetypes and concepts, just in luckier circumstances they have a team of varied writers who all fill in for each other's shortcoming.

Is there any hope of him writing Sally better?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The problem often they were so ill limelighted you could barely tell the difference. The Freedom Fighters didn't really have a lot of foibles or quirks compared to the games/original comic characters. If Robotnik or other bad guys hadn't affected their lives they'd likely be every men with little character agency at all.

What quirks are you looking for as oppossed to what the writers have been showing you?

Cuz I’m pretty sure they had a number of differences:

-Antoine was the most normal member of the team whose main strength was his swordsmanship, and he was far more fearful than even the younger members of the team in spite of the fact that he was at least brave enough to pull through. He also has a slight bit of spite towards Sonic despite being his close friend, if his rooting for Knuckles in the Champions arc was any indicator.

-Rotor was a techie like Tails who specialized in weaponry with an abusive father in his post-reboot background that lead to him leaving his homeland, with all the baggage that you’d expect from that while ironically showing he was a far bigger man than his father could be.

-Bunnie is the strongest member of the team (second strongest if we’re including Big) who often went charging into things and getting into heated situations that she might not have pulled through without her cybernetics. She also could ironically be the girliest member.

-Nicole is a computer that gained sentience and emotion, and has a backstory that could challenge the likes of Shadow or Knuckles in overall development and scale

-And Sally was the tactician and diplomat of the team who lead them in the field and work with other groups on a larger scale. She could arguably be the least developed in the post-reboot, but that doesn’t diminish the character traits she has shown.

What are you really looking for when it comes to characters quirks? Because I think you’re looking for something that wasn’t even intended or not looking at what is show and just painting the whole group with a broad brush, because this isn’t the first time you’ve said this.

[Silvereyes]

So some more thoughts on the Archie comic:

#51-#77: This is the era where Robotnik is dead, the Freedom Fighers are lead by their king again, the rebuilding of Mobotropolis, and essentially an era about retaking the world. I like it in concept, but I'm not so sure it works out fully. I think part of the issue is that Robotnik leaves a big villian gap, and some of the villians they try and fill him in with like Naugus, Kodos, or even Snively at one point just can't quite match up to. There's also the introduction of Monkey Khan, a sort of rogueish hero type who honestly comes across as just Sonic 2.0 but way more annoying.

Some plot threads are introduced but don't ever feel like they ever do much with them, like Sally's brother Elias who really just seems to spend 90% of the time going on about not wanting to be king, then eventually runs away and marries a peasant woman. There's also St John forming a unit of C-list characters which I really couldn't care less.

I like that for a portion of the comic, I think something like #58-#67, Sonic and Tails go off on some solo adventures together which has some fun moments. I still think the comic is good, even if it does feel a little bit aimless until they reintroduce a new Robotnik in #75 and basically reset back to the status quo somewhat by #77. Nate Morgan is a nice addition, but I guess is dead now, and might not even come back? I really like the Memento style issue #71, where time and the comic itself runs in reverse, and they use it as an excuse to give Sonic his Adventure design. So yeah, still some good stuff here, and it is neat how it has crossovers with the Knuckles comic which was running at the time.

Knuckles the Echidna #1-#32: You know, considering how infamous Ken Penders is nowadays, and knowing that this comic was kindof his pet project, I couldn't help but walk into it half expecting it to be a trainwreck from issue #1. But honestly, I think this comic is pretty good... at least from about #1-#21. I actually think the comic works pretty well in conjunction with the Sonic comic. The Sonic comic tends to prioritise 1 issue plots, Knuckles comic goes for 3 issue plots. Sonic takes place on Mobius, Knuckles is set on Angel, I mean, The Floating Island. Even in terms of tone, I feel like the Knuckles comic tries to perhaps be for slightly older kids than the Sonic comic, and I can appreciate that.

I do think even in issues #1-#21 there are problems though, mainly in terms of the number of characters we follow in the comic seems to grow at an exponential rate. I mean, in the Sonic comic, you could argue that maybe a more appropriate name for that comic could be "Sonic and the Freedom Fighters", but it is still about Sonic through and through, and there aren't a huge amount of other characters, with new characters like St John, Mina, Nate etc introduced in a steady organic pace. In the Knuckles comic, it feels like every new story arc introduces new characters we are meant to inexplicably care about, like Constable Remington, Harry the cab driver and Knuckles' mom Lara-Le, who really does nothing except be Knuckles' mom but gets aton of focus on her anyway.

It doesn't help further that despite the Chaotix being in alot of the comic, they are so useless most of the time. Even in issues #13-#15 where it was advertised as being about the Chaotix while Knuckles is off stranded on Mobius, the Chaotix all get poisoned by their own stupidity, and so the comic winds up about being Julie-Su and Remington teaming up to save the day. There's also Archimedes who exists to help Knuckles in his duties, and then there is also his dad and his buddies who also exist to help Knuckles as well in secret, meaning it feels a little ridiculous how much backup Knuckles needs. They try and explain alot of why they do the trick of pretending Knuckles' dad is dead in #25, but it honestly just comes across a little bit silly to me.

Still, I do enjoy elements of the comic. I think the Dark Legion are good bad guys, especially with Robotnik absent at the time of the comic. I like how the comic has a bit of a serious tone, even if it times it is a little funny because of it being so serious. I think Knuckles is a good main character, and feels well defined, especially compared to the current game Knuckles when it feels like noone has any idea what to do with him. Some stories can feel a little repetitious in nature, especially when it seems like the conflict seems to always come about by something one of Knuckles' ancestors did in the past, and so it means we have to always have several pages of flashbacks to explain everything. I genuinely think something like 10% of the entire comic is dedicated to flashbacks.

I do think it starts to go downhill in the story of #22-#24. Some kind of plot about the Dark Legion taking over Echidnopolis via a rigged election, with Nazi metaphors, and even an issue starting with an FDR quote which is attributed to a comic character instead is when the comic's seriousness becomes cringeworthy. #25 is good with Locke reuniting with Knuckles, but then we get #26-#28 which is pretty infamous, with it being a "romantic comedy", with it neither being funny or interesting. Can't say I terribly give a shit about Knuckles hooking up with Julie-Su, and I think it was a bit mistake to dedicate a 3 part A story to it. And after that snoozefest, #29 is about Knuckles and Sally angsting each other for an entire issue with no action. It wouldn't surprise me if these 4 issues is what put off alot of issues leading to the comic's cancellation. I don't think #30-#32 is terribly great either, Hunter being a dull Francisco Scaramanga knock off isn't great. I love the fact that in a flashback, a purple ape bullies Knuckles, and rather than try and let Knuckles overcome the bully himself, Locke and his mates kidnap the ape and throw him off the island. Also the "tragic" ending when the purple ape dies isn't terribly emotional.

Although if we are talking about character deaths, I find it unintentionally hilarious how Charmy's friends dies from taking drugs. Absolutely wonderful and I love the fact that once upon a time Sega allowed that sort of shit to happen.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Knuckles issues are less a bad thing and the whole thing with Penders has more to do with his oversized ego.

[NezumiVA]

I'm kind of wading in the middle of a hugely ongoing discussion here, but I think out of all the problems I had with Archie Sonic over the course of its run - Characterization struck the worst chord with me. The people I was supposed to like often came off rather flat out mean rather than realistically flawed (see: Archie Sonic himself) and the less I say on how they took Sally's well rounded SatAM characterization and ran it into the ground, the better...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We talking the same Sonic?

The meanest I’ve seen him was in the House of Cards arc, and most people hated that (which i think was the intention, hence why they had Tails sock him in the face and somewhat in the right—barring the whole Fiona thing)

[DabigRG]

Gonna go ahead and respond this standalone post. Because holy shit.

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

-And Sally was the tactician and diplomat of the team who lead them in the field and work with other groups on a larger scale. She could arguably be the least developed in the post-reboot, but that doesn’t diminish the character traits she has shown.

What are you really looking for when it comes to characters quirks? Because I think you’re looking for something that wasn’t even intended or not looking at what is show and just painting the whole group with a broad brush, because this isn’t the first time you’ve said this.

I wanna highlight this statement in particular because it's pretty much where I'm forced to draw the line on the topic.

New252!Sally was definitely the least developed despite her nominally bigger role and (arguable) main presence, with her backstory quite literally just being the backstory of the Freedom Fighters mobilization to restore the Kingdom of Acorn, without any lingering plot points for her to deal with in present, unlike all the others. And there's little personal motivations for her character to pursue outside of when it involves NICOLE and when her character actually does has direct influence in a story's events, it is things like her ability to manage a situation and her making the right call.

What characterization she does have is what's retained and/or modified from her established personality traits, which in the reboot are based on how she operates in a fight, her approach to a complicated situation compared to Sonic or Rotor, her sheepishness in either mundane tasks or having to fall back on her dad, and her personal assessment of risks to the team vs. risk to herself. There's also her in-universe implementation of the Cream mandate, which itself was seemingly rushed/cut short.

Now, with that said, that does ironically seem to be where the actual issue is on both ends--Archie was cutting back on how involved Sally was in practice by eliminating the fluff people were critical of before Mr. Flynn(ai. Romance, Royal Family Drama, being Non-action most of the time) and by focusing more on the other characters being in the limelight half of the time. Thus, it feels like people are being critical of her rebooted character when she's really not seeing nearly the amount of emphasis she used to.

 

Honestly, whenever Sally has been seriously talked about here, some of it sounds more like a combination of the usual addressings of a Sue and people associating her preboot history with her rebooted self more than little much than necessary.

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

-Bunnie is the strongest member of the team (second strongest if we’re including Big) who often went charging into things and getting into heated situations that she might not have pulled through without her cybernetics. She also could ironically be the girliest member.

 I know Bunnie never exactly got much focus on her alone compared to the other Freedom Fighters, but was she really like that in the reboot? 

[NezumiVA]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

We talking the same Sonic?

The meanest I’ve seen him was in the House of Cards arc, and most people hated that (which i think was the intention, hence why they had Tails sock him in the face and somewhat in the right—barring the whole Fiona thing)

Forgive me for being vague, my memory of the comic as a whole is rather hazy (haven't touched it in quite some time).
If I do remember correctly, I think the bit of Sonic's characterization that really made me cringe the hardest was...something along those lines? I seem to definitely remember Tails punching him. I could just never picture Sonic as being antagonistic in any regard to Tails especially. I get that Archie played up feuds a lot, but that just felt...ugly.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

OK, so it was more the case that he was one of the bigger contributers rather than him actually being in charge of everything. OK, that makes sense. So I guess he is attributed to some of the bad decisions in the comic that would cause him to eventually be fired by Archie?

 

Eh, a little something like that, though that wouldn't really happen for a long while.

6 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

 

As for Sally, I do think it is worth mentioning that with her character being like that from Satam, back then in the '90s, alot of cartoon programmes as well as other '90s shows would often have a majority male cast with a token female, but the token female was often made to be very capable and serious, and in the process, wind up very bland and dull. I don't think it was that bad for Satam in particular, especially with Bunnie so it wasn't just Sally in the main cast, but I do think that's why her character can be a bit weaker when she is utilised alot in a long running comic series.

 

Essentially.

I should go ahead and note that I've never had much of an issue with Sally myself, with the complaints against her character coming off as either a product of the furry soap opera stuff or something of a surprise when they were serious(aka, several of months ago, really), but I will admit that she benefited the most from both the reboot and Mr. Flynn taking over.

6 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

 

Mind you, I do find it funny how many love interests they seem to of tried to give Sally, like with Antoine crushing on her, St John in love with her, Sonic in love with her, and even Knuckles turning out to have a childhood romance with her, it does get a little silly. Likewise in the comic they also set up a love triangle between Sonic, Sally and Mine the Mongoose. I actually like Mina alot, but I don't think a Sonic comic needs a love triangle.

There's at least one more down the road that you may or may not have seen the introduction of by now.